Track Day - driver skills
Discussion
Yesterday I had a few laps in a Mini at Goodwood as a gift, and a couple of years ago I got to drive a 355 and a Formula Renault (albeit heavily restricted in power :(). But yesterday has got me thinking about doing my own car track days, and as such I am posting here. I have a few questions....
1. I felt the track was huge and wide and to be honest was a bit lost at where to point the car on the straight.
2. braking zones - I was braking to early, how do you get the feel of the brakes. I imagine in your "own" car its easier, but I was braking far to early and softly. Do you really hammer it on the brakes and then turn in ?
3. How much does "damage" does a track mile do compared to a road mile ?
4. Looking at Nurburgring pics, lots of privates use like mk1/2 golf's, e30 m3 , would I really benefit from a track bred car ? Or just get something to do some laps whilst learning ?
1. I felt the track was huge and wide and to be honest was a bit lost at where to point the car on the straight.
2. braking zones - I was braking to early, how do you get the feel of the brakes. I imagine in your "own" car its easier, but I was braking far to early and softly. Do you really hammer it on the brakes and then turn in ?
3. How much does "damage" does a track mile do compared to a road mile ?
4. Looking at Nurburgring pics, lots of privates use like mk1/2 golf's, e30 m3 , would I really benefit from a track bred car ? Or just get something to do some laps whilst learning ?
dtmpower said:
1. I felt the track was huge and wide and to be honest was a bit lost at where to point the car on the straight.
Practice makes perfect. The track doesn't seem anywhere near so wide once one is using ALL of it to get round...
dtmpower said:
2. braking zones - I was braking to early, how do you get the feel of the brakes. I imagine in your "own" car its easier, but I was braking far to early and softly. Do you really hammer it on the brakes and then turn in ?
Braking on track should be as late as possible given that you are going to brake at the absolute limit of grip. Equipped with a car with ABS you can practice relatively safely braking to just before the point the ABS kicks in. Start by doing it early - you will find yourself coasting up the turn-in point after getting your speed right. Then leave it later and later so you are just easing smoothly off the last of the brakes as you turn the wheel into the corner.
dtmpower said:
3. How much does "damage" does a track mile do compared to a road mile ?
Depends on how hard you are trying. Given that you DO try hard enough to have fun a ratio of about 1 track mile to 20 road miles is about it...according to a range of sources I have read includuing the "Track Day Driver's Guide" - a must read book. Search Amazon - it will answer most of your questions...
dtmpower said:
4. Looking at Nurburgring pics, lots of privates use like mk1/2 golf's, e30 m3 , would I really benefit from a track bred car ? Or just get something to do some laps whilst learning ?
The key thing in a car that you take to the track (as an amateur) is that it should not cost you a mint to run. Good things are it being as light as possible (Caterhams don't wear out brakes/tyres on track anywhere near as fast as big, heavy cars) and being in expensively serviced.
I take my Porsche on track as much as I can. But if I was buying a car whose main purpose was track days (and not touring holidays - which we do in the Box) I would buy a Caterham or an Elise.
The Caterham is cheaper to fix and service, is lighter (so wears less) and is a hoot to drive. It is no coincidence that Johnny at Bookatrack rents 'em out and that by FAR the most common track car I see is a Caterham.
The Elise would be nicer to be in on a wet track day - in the Caterham you get SOAKED.
hi john,
i went through the same process myself. have now started doing track days (three so far this year with two more booked for sep/oct). best bet is to get some tuition on the track day as local instructors will have a much better feel for braking points/turn in/direction and position on straights/etc. once you've done a dozen or so laps you pretty much get the idea of where you're supposed to be going and then it's down to refining the line and getting quicker/smoother/better. i'm sure there'll be plenty of people on here who can recommend instructors for more intense tuition (i've used don palmer and he's top)
car wise i've gone for a caterham as i'm doing the academy next year. there's always been a healthy mix on the track days i've been to - loads of porkers and impreza/evo type stuff and usually a good selection of caterhams and elises.
happy tracking...!
si.
i went through the same process myself. have now started doing track days (three so far this year with two more booked for sep/oct). best bet is to get some tuition on the track day as local instructors will have a much better feel for braking points/turn in/direction and position on straights/etc. once you've done a dozen or so laps you pretty much get the idea of where you're supposed to be going and then it's down to refining the line and getting quicker/smoother/better. i'm sure there'll be plenty of people on here who can recommend instructors for more intense tuition (i've used don palmer and he's top)
car wise i've gone for a caterham as i'm doing the academy next year. there's always been a healthy mix on the track days i've been to - loads of porkers and impreza/evo type stuff and usually a good selection of caterhams and elises.
happy tracking...!
si.
Goodwood is very fast, flat and relatively featureless; it's the hardest environment to pick up the correct line and judge braking distances. It also means that unless you are utterly wreckless, as a newbie you'll be nowhere near the limit of the car through the corners which can be a bit demoralizing.
If you get on a smaller more wiggly track with more visual reference points I think you will find this comes a lot more naturally.
If you get on a smaller more wiggly track with more visual reference points I think you will find this comes a lot more naturally.
[quote]
1. I felt the track was huge and wide and to be honest was a bit lost at where to point the car on the straight.
[/quote]
You get used to that and develop an eye for features to help you find braking points, turn-in points, etc, and then off-track, roundabouts suddenly seem startlingly narrow...
Doesn't even need to be things at the verge - stuff like surface changes can help (like the big corner at the back of Prodrive's Tower circuit, the surface change is the turn-in point.) After a few laps you can stop thinking about it so much because you develop a bit of the right kind of perception.
[quote]
2. braking zones - I was braking to early, how do you get the feel of the brakes. I imagine in your "own" car its easier, but I was braking far to early and softly. Do you really hammer it on the brakes and then turn in ?
[/quote]
Depends on the car - some like braking to help turn them, some don't, some will spin if you so much as brush the pedal and steering at the same time. It depends more on chassis, weight total and distribution and diff / drivetrain than it does on the actual brakes... but I'll come back to brakes. That said you always use them harder than you would on the road.
You use the brakes as hard as you can without triggering ABS (or even with a bit of ABS if it comes in early as it does on a lot of cars) but that's not the same as hammering them - you squeeze them on, keep squeezing until you're at the max, and you squeeze them off. SMOOTH is the word. On some sections you'll never get to 100% braking because you only need to lose 5-10mph or you're using them to help a direction change.
I've come to think brake feel is as important as total braking power (maybe that was the problem with the Mini? Not driven one.)
[quote]
3. How much does "damage" does a track mile do compared to a road mile ?
[/quote]
I've seen 10 miles per mile quoted widely (strangely, in the same book that the 20 miles per mile is quoted from) Again, does depend on your style and the car, and if you're trying to do things right and learn stuff you don't have to drive 100% all the time. Sideways is a lot harder on the car than smooth-in fast-out. However, smooth-in fast-out just doesn't work in some cars (hot hatches for instance).
Brakes is the usual problem - a lot of standard road cars just don't have brakes that are up to doing several emergency stops per lap (which if you think about it is almost what you're doing.)
[quote]
4. Looking at Nurburgring pics, lots of privates use like mk1/2 golf's, e30 m3 , would I really benefit from a track bred car ? Or just get something to do some laps whilst learning ?[/quote]
The main advantage (or disadvantage?) of having your own track car is that you get very familiar with the characteristics and that really helps you know to the yard where you can brake, how hard you can come out of corners, where the limits are on sweepers, etc... The reason this could be a disadvantage is you get to rely on all that, and when you try and drive something else hard you do everything in the wrong place at the wrong time. Less of a problem if you always drive well-balanced RWD cars of course
In a similar vein you can also set up the car to suit your style as much as you alter your style to suit the car, and meet somewhere in the middle, but then you're buggered when you try and drive something that doesn't suit you.
None of this means you need a "track" car but non-track cars often have a frustrating limit (brakes, or chronic understeer) that you hit and it just gets in the way of developing your driving.
I'm trying to get around to buying a cheapy eBay job, but I'm looking for lightish and well-balanced in favour of power.
1. I felt the track was huge and wide and to be honest was a bit lost at where to point the car on the straight.
[/quote]
You get used to that and develop an eye for features to help you find braking points, turn-in points, etc, and then off-track, roundabouts suddenly seem startlingly narrow...
Doesn't even need to be things at the verge - stuff like surface changes can help (like the big corner at the back of Prodrive's Tower circuit, the surface change is the turn-in point.) After a few laps you can stop thinking about it so much because you develop a bit of the right kind of perception.
[quote]
2. braking zones - I was braking to early, how do you get the feel of the brakes. I imagine in your "own" car its easier, but I was braking far to early and softly. Do you really hammer it on the brakes and then turn in ?
[/quote]
Depends on the car - some like braking to help turn them, some don't, some will spin if you so much as brush the pedal and steering at the same time. It depends more on chassis, weight total and distribution and diff / drivetrain than it does on the actual brakes... but I'll come back to brakes. That said you always use them harder than you would on the road.
You use the brakes as hard as you can without triggering ABS (or even with a bit of ABS if it comes in early as it does on a lot of cars) but that's not the same as hammering them - you squeeze them on, keep squeezing until you're at the max, and you squeeze them off. SMOOTH is the word. On some sections you'll never get to 100% braking because you only need to lose 5-10mph or you're using them to help a direction change.
I've come to think brake feel is as important as total braking power (maybe that was the problem with the Mini? Not driven one.)
[quote]
3. How much does "damage" does a track mile do compared to a road mile ?
[/quote]
I've seen 10 miles per mile quoted widely (strangely, in the same book that the 20 miles per mile is quoted from) Again, does depend on your style and the car, and if you're trying to do things right and learn stuff you don't have to drive 100% all the time. Sideways is a lot harder on the car than smooth-in fast-out. However, smooth-in fast-out just doesn't work in some cars (hot hatches for instance).
Brakes is the usual problem - a lot of standard road cars just don't have brakes that are up to doing several emergency stops per lap (which if you think about it is almost what you're doing.)
[quote]
4. Looking at Nurburgring pics, lots of privates use like mk1/2 golf's, e30 m3 , would I really benefit from a track bred car ? Or just get something to do some laps whilst learning ?[/quote]
The main advantage (or disadvantage?) of having your own track car is that you get very familiar with the characteristics and that really helps you know to the yard where you can brake, how hard you can come out of corners, where the limits are on sweepers, etc... The reason this could be a disadvantage is you get to rely on all that, and when you try and drive something else hard you do everything in the wrong place at the wrong time. Less of a problem if you always drive well-balanced RWD cars of course
In a similar vein you can also set up the car to suit your style as much as you alter your style to suit the car, and meet somewhere in the middle, but then you're buggered when you try and drive something that doesn't suit you.
None of this means you need a "track" car but non-track cars often have a frustrating limit (brakes, or chronic understeer) that you hit and it just gets in the way of developing your driving.
I'm trying to get around to buying a cheapy eBay job, but I'm looking for lightish and well-balanced in favour of power.
simon138 said:Hi Simon don't forget the Accademy forum here
car wise i've gone for a caterham as i'm doing the academy next year. there's always been a healthy mix on the track days i've been to - loads of porkers and impreza/evo type stuff and usually a good selection of caterhams and elises.
www.roadsports.co.uk/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=12
Cheers
Ben
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