Ridiculous working hours
Discussion
I recently started a job doing long distance delivery driving using a van. At first i was doing 10hour days but now i have been doing 14-16hour days of continious driving. I start at 6 and usually finish at 10 at night, now im in the process of looking for other jobs but as everyone knows its not easy. Does anyone have any advice on what the law states about driving these hours, i have already got a speeding fine from not concentrating the other week and realised i cannot cope with these times
I'm sure this is easier said than done, we all need to earn a living but get out of there.asap!
Have a look here.
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employees/W...
Have a look here.
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employees/W...
Technically, you're falling foul of the British Domestic Driving regulations.
That is, maximum driving of 10 hours per day, maximum duty of 11 hours per day (if you've driven for more than 4 or 4.5 hours (I think - Been a while since this was relevant to me)).
These rules apply in situations where Tachograph rules do not, ie for vehicles under 3.5 tonnes, and in the cases of other exemption from Tacho rules.
You should be keeping a daily record of both driving and duty time, there are standard issue logbooks available for this purpose. I know most van drivers don't , but in the event of an accident or other incident, it's you (and your licence) that will feel the force of the law, especially if you're way over the hours. Your employer will too, but that's small comfort when you're faced with a big fine or worse.
Here's a reasonable summary of the regs, scroll down to the bit that's titled: WVM Van Drivers Hours.
http://www.transportcafe.co.uk/drivers_hours.html
I know it says you aren't obliged to keep a logbook, however, my interpretation of the relevant rules is that you are, actually, obliged to keep a record, although few people do.
Seriously though, either get out of there, or escalate it to management or the local traffic commissioner. You and them could be heading to jail in the event of an accident where someone's killed (assuming it isn't you, heaven forbid).
Feel free to ask for more info, either here or via PM.
That is, maximum driving of 10 hours per day, maximum duty of 11 hours per day (if you've driven for more than 4 or 4.5 hours (I think - Been a while since this was relevant to me)).
These rules apply in situations where Tachograph rules do not, ie for vehicles under 3.5 tonnes, and in the cases of other exemption from Tacho rules.
You should be keeping a daily record of both driving and duty time, there are standard issue logbooks available for this purpose. I know most van drivers don't , but in the event of an accident or other incident, it's you (and your licence) that will feel the force of the law, especially if you're way over the hours. Your employer will too, but that's small comfort when you're faced with a big fine or worse.
Here's a reasonable summary of the regs, scroll down to the bit that's titled: WVM Van Drivers Hours.
http://www.transportcafe.co.uk/drivers_hours.html
I know it says you aren't obliged to keep a logbook, however, my interpretation of the relevant rules is that you are, actually, obliged to keep a record, although few people do.
Seriously though, either get out of there, or escalate it to management or the local traffic commissioner. You and them could be heading to jail in the event of an accident where someone's killed (assuming it isn't you, heaven forbid).
Feel free to ask for more info, either here or via PM.
holes want taking to court, don't know how employers like this can sleep at night. Jerry Can said:
Or not.OP stated it was van driving. Tacho-fitted vehicles are a different kettle of fish.
Jerry Can said:
the point being that the drivers who were running long hours were going to be jailed if the hadn't helped the investigation. Ergo, the OP should limit his hours or end up in jail or have a bad accident which will also see him in jail.
No, they were going to be jailed for tampering with tachographs and avoided this by aiding the prosecution.The OP is not committing an offence of a similar nature.
Jerry Can said:
no comment said:
No, they were going to be jailed for tampering with tachographs and avoided this by aiding the prosecution.
The OP is not committing an offence of a similar nature.
oh ffs!The OP is not committing an offence of a similar nature.
read super slo mos comment then read the bit after 'manipulated' in the article.
Super Slo Mo was stating regulations in relation to drivers of vehicles which are not tacho-installed. He also stated that, in the event the OPs actions caused an accident, then the OP could potentially be looking at criminal prosecution.
As for the part of the BBC article after 'Manipulated', relevance to pointing it out? Sorry to stereotype, but most truckers are hardly the shy and retiring types. I doubt a defence of duress or coercion would have lasted under even the slightest examination by a prosecutor, hence the drivers turning QE.
The 2 pieces of legislation that apply here are -
1. The Road Transport (Working Time) Directive. Unlike the WTD there is no op-out for 'mobile workers' so this definately applies to you.
2. Health and Safety At Work Act. This includes Corporate Manslaughter which I believe has already been applied to a company whose driver caused a death through fatigue.
I did a quick google and found this - http://www.evancarmichael.com/Human-Resources/801/...
Hope this helps.
1. The Road Transport (Working Time) Directive. Unlike the WTD there is no op-out for 'mobile workers' so this definately applies to you.
2. Health and Safety At Work Act. This includes Corporate Manslaughter which I believe has already been applied to a company whose driver caused a death through fatigue.
I did a quick google and found this - http://www.evancarmichael.com/Human-Resources/801/...
Hope this helps.
Edited by bignathy on Monday 16th May 07:46
Bobby Valentino said:
I recently started a job doing long distance delivery driving using a van. At first i was doing 10hour days but now i have been doing 14-16hour days of continuous driving. I start at 6 and usually finish at 10 at night, now I'm in the process of looking for other jobs but as everyone knows its not easy. Does anyone have any advice on what the law states about driving these hours, i have already got a speeding fine from not concentrating the other week and realised i cannot cope with these times
Driving orange Sprinters, by any chance? (Damaged, Hidden or Lost any parcels lately?) A colleague was required to drive from Perth, Scotland, to Manchester, five nights a week, with a fifteen minute delivery window at Manchester. After about three weeks of this routine his van was delivered back to Perth on a low-loader with both nearside doors in the back of the van, ripped off when he hit the rear of a flatbed truck. He admitted to falling asleep, was sacked on the spot, reported to the police by his employers, and lost his license in the subsequent prosecution.
karona said:
Driving orange Sprinters, by any chance? (Damaged, Hidden or Lost any parcels lately?)
A colleague was required to drive from Perth, Scotland, to Manchester, five nights a week, with a fifteen minute delivery window at Manchester. After about three weeks of this routine his van was delivered back to Perth on a low-loader with both nearside doors in the back of the van, ripped off when he hit the rear of a flatbed truck. He admitted to falling asleep, was sacked on the spot, reported to the police by his employers, and lost his license in the subsequent prosecution.
Get the boss to read this.A colleague was required to drive from Perth, Scotland, to Manchester, five nights a week, with a fifteen minute delivery window at Manchester. After about three weeks of this routine his van was delivered back to Perth on a low-loader with both nearside doors in the back of the van, ripped off when he hit the rear of a flatbed truck. He admitted to falling asleep, was sacked on the spot, reported to the police by his employers, and lost his license in the subsequent prosecution.
http://www.accufleet.co.uk/corporate-manslaughter-...
karona said:
Driving orange Sprinters, by any chance? (Damaged, Hidden or Lost any parcels lately?)
A colleague was required to drive from Perth, Scotland, to Manchester, five nights a week, with a fifteen minute delivery window at Manchester. After about three weeks of this routine his van was delivered back to Perth on a low-loader with both nearside doors in the back of the van, ripped off when he hit the rear of a flatbed truck. He admitted to falling asleep, was sacked on the spot, reported to the police by his employers, and lost his license in the subsequent prosecution.
I wonder if you're being told the whole story here. I say that for two reasons. A colleague was required to drive from Perth, Scotland, to Manchester, five nights a week, with a fifteen minute delivery window at Manchester. After about three weeks of this routine his van was delivered back to Perth on a low-loader with both nearside doors in the back of the van, ripped off when he hit the rear of a flatbed truck. He admitted to falling asleep, was sacked on the spot, reported to the police by his employers, and lost his license in the subsequent prosecution.
Firstly, Perth to Manchester to Perth is around 9 hours, maybe a little less, depending on how fast you're going, which in a Sprinter is generally at least normal car motorway speeds. There aren't too many vehicles on the road north of Preston, so holdups are fairly rare. So assuming a driving limit of 10 hours per day, there's a reasonable amount of contingency in that route.
Secondly, having worked for the company you mention, they're generally pretty hot on health and safety, particularly regards high risk activities like driving (they were at the 3PL contract I was on, at least, which of course is not the parcel delivery arm). The driver would (should?) have been given a full induction, and should have been advised as to his expected breaks etc. I would be very surprised if his employers haven't planned at least an hour's break into his schedule. The 15 minute delivery window won't be considered part of a driver's break or rest period. However, that doesn't stop a driver trying to cut his breaks and get home early (it happens).
Ultimately though, once you're in command of a vehicle, as a driver it's largely your responsibility (management expectations aside), and you should be driving both safely and legally.
I know sometimes it's easier said than done, but you do have control of your own situation to a large extent, and should be taking regular breaks of sufficient time (absolute minimum of 15 to 20 minutes at a time).
bignathy said:
The 2 pieces of legislation that apply here are -
1. The Road Transport (Working Time) Directive. Unlike the WTD there is no op-out for 'mobile workers' so this definately applies to you.
2. Health and Safety At Work Act. This includes Corporate Manslaughter which I believe has already been applied to a company whose driver caused a death through fatigue.
I did a quick google and found this - http://www.evancarmichael.com/Human-Resources/801/...
Hope this helps.
the road transport directive doesn't apply to drivers of vehicles that don't come under the European drivers hours regs.1. The Road Transport (Working Time) Directive. Unlike the WTD there is no op-out for 'mobile workers' so this definately applies to you.
2. Health and Safety At Work Act. This includes Corporate Manslaughter which I believe has already been applied to a company whose driver caused a death through fatigue.
I did a quick google and found this - http://www.evancarmichael.com/Human-Resources/801/...
Hope this helps.
Edited by bignathy on Monday 16th May 07:46
what he needs to look at uk driving rules as stated in the first reply, i haven't heard of any prosecutions under though. if you kill someone then that would be a different story.
phil-sti said:
bignathy said:
The 2 pieces of legislation that apply here are -
1. The Road Transport (Working Time) Directive. Unlike the WTD there is no op-out for 'mobile workers' so this definately applies to you.
2. Health and Safety At Work Act. This includes Corporate Manslaughter which I believe has already been applied to a company whose driver caused a death through fatigue.
I did a quick google and found this - http://www.evancarmichael.com/Human-Resources/801/...
Hope this helps.
the road transport directive doesn't apply to drivers of vehicles that don't come under the European drivers hours regs.1. The Road Transport (Working Time) Directive. Unlike the WTD there is no op-out for 'mobile workers' so this definately applies to you.
2. Health and Safety At Work Act. This includes Corporate Manslaughter which I believe has already been applied to a company whose driver caused a death through fatigue.
I did a quick google and found this - http://www.evancarmichael.com/Human-Resources/801/...
Hope this helps.
Edited by bignathy on Monday 16th May 07:46
what he needs to look at uk driving rules as stated in the first reply, i haven't heard of any prosecutions under though. if you kill someone then that would be a different story.
Super Slo Mo said:
karona said:
Driving orange Sprinters, by any chance? (Damaged, Hidden or Lost any parcels lately?)
A colleague was required to drive from Perth, Scotland, to Manchester, five nights a week, with a fifteen minute delivery window at Manchester. After about three weeks of this routine his van was delivered back to Perth on a low-loader with both nearside doors in the back of the van, ripped off when he hit the rear of a flatbed truck. He admitted to falling asleep, was sacked on the spot, reported to the police by his employers, and lost his license in the subsequent prosecution.
I wonder if you're being told the whole story here. I say that for two reasons. A colleague was required to drive from Perth, Scotland, to Manchester, five nights a week, with a fifteen minute delivery window at Manchester. After about three weeks of this routine his van was delivered back to Perth on a low-loader with both nearside doors in the back of the van, ripped off when he hit the rear of a flatbed truck. He admitted to falling asleep, was sacked on the spot, reported to the police by his employers, and lost his license in the subsequent prosecution.
Firstly, Perth to Manchester to Perth is around 9 hours, maybe a little less, depending on how fast you're going, which in a Sprinter is generally at least normal car motorway speeds. There aren't too many vehicles on the road north of Preston, so holdups are fairly rare. So assuming a driving limit of 10 hours per day, there's a reasonable amount of contingency in that route.
Secondly, having worked for the company you mention, they're generally pretty hot on health and safety, particularly regards high risk activities like driving (they were at the 3PL contract I was on, at least, which of course is not the parcel delivery arm). The driver would (should?) have been given a full induction, and should have been advised as to his expected breaks etc. I would be very surprised if his employers haven't planned at least an hour's break into his schedule. The 15 minute delivery window won't be considered part of a driver's break or rest period. However, that doesn't stop a driver trying to cut his breaks and get home early (it happens).
Ultimately though, once you're in command of a vehicle, as a driver it's largely your responsibility (management
I know sometimes it's easier said than done, but you do have control of your own situation to a large extent, and should be taking regular breaks of sufficient time (absolute minimum of 15 to 20 minutes at a time).
Wash, rinse repeat, every night, five nights a week.
edit: I've taken the liberty of correcting your spelling of 'expectations'
Edited by karona on Tuesday 17th May 06:58
karona said:
The driver is a close friend, plus I did the run myself for a week before telling them to poke it. The routine involved loading the van with parcels for the 'Diamond' pre 10am next day delivery service. As soon as the last collection arrived at the base and was loaded the van left for Manchester. Sticking to legal speeds the van arrived at Manchester with 15 minutes or so to unload the parcels for sorting and loading into other vans for the other bases. The driver was required to unload, and then load, his own van. The van was then driven back to Perth with the new load of parcels. The driver was required to unload the van at Perth.
Wash, rinse repeat, every night, five nights a week.
edit: I've taken the liberty of correcting your spelling of 'expectations'
Ha ha. I wouldn't know about that. I'll take your word for the nature of the job though.Wash, rinse repeat, every night, five nights a week.
edit: I've taken the liberty of correcting your spelling of 'expectations'
Edited by karona on Tuesday 17th May 06:58
It would drive me daft doing that route, I used to like doing a different run every day, just to stop the boredom setting in.
However, I find it hard to believe that there wasn't room in the schedule for an hour's break somewhere, probably after the delivery had been made. In fact, I'd go as far as to say the driver should be making sure he takes his break. ETA: However, not having worked for this particular division, I don't know how they operate.
As said though, I worked for the 3PL (3rd party logistics) division, with tacho regulated vehicles, so we were very hot on the rules. Corners were not allowed to be cut, although route times could, and often would, be pushed quite hard. We had fairly regular occasions of drivers running out of hours and having to be fetched in, in fact I've been sent out myself on a few occasions to bring a truck back in.
In our case, the driver's decision would be respected. If he/she discovered a defect on the morning walk around, quite rightly they'd be able to refuse to use the vehicle until it'd been repaired. If they were getting close to their daily limit when out on the road, they'd phone the office, tell us where they expected to get to, and we'd meet them there with a driver.
Having been on both sides of the fence though, we did get drivers who would play the system, or who were, frankly, lazy and didn't want to do a day's work (driving jobs are long hours, boring and quite hard work of course). I've seen agency drivers refuse to take a route out because it had 5 drops on it, and they only wanted to do 2 drops (the norm was 10 to 14).
Not that I'm in any was casting any kind of pre-judgement on your friend, obviously I don't know him, and I've not done that particular job/route.
I know it would bore me stupid, and staying awake would be the biggest problem, but from how you describe it, boredom aside, it sounds feasible within the 10/11 hour driving/duty rules (plus a break of course). Just. But that's how a lot of delivery routes are planned, very tightly.
Edited by Super Slo Mo on Tuesday 17th May 13:53
To add further information to the original question and my first reply (before we got a bit off track), I found out yesterday that VOSA now have the power to impose spot fines for infringements of driving and duty hours, for both tacho and domestic rules.
This was implemented a couple of years ago, and something I ought to have known, but having being out of the logistics business for 4 years, some of my knowledge is a little rusty.
Anyway, the relevant fines are summarised as follows:
Up to an hour over either driving or duty times - £60
Over an hour, but under two hours over - £120
Over two hours, but under three hours - £200
There's nothing mentioned about being over 3 hours over either driving or duty times, I suspect at that point, you're looking at a court appearance.
Although there don't appear to be points imposed for these infractions, as a van driver, a single penalty of £60 is likely to wipe out most of your pay for that day.
I'll also clarify another point I made earlier; that is, once behind the wheel, you, the driver, is responsible for the vehicle and your driving/duty times.
Yes, management can and likely will get a kicking too, if they're found to be implicit in any infringement, but it's the driver who is legally obliged to drive within the parameters laid down by the law.
Of course, that doesn't stop management in some cases trying to push drivers beyond the limits, but legally, the driver cannot be forced to do something which puts them outside of the legal requirements.
Of course, emergency situations are an allowable exception, for instance, if the driver's been stuck on a closed motorway for hours, he's allowed to exceed the limits in order to reach a safe place to park up.
This was implemented a couple of years ago, and something I ought to have known, but having being out of the logistics business for 4 years, some of my knowledge is a little rusty.
Anyway, the relevant fines are summarised as follows:
Up to an hour over either driving or duty times - £60
Over an hour, but under two hours over - £120
Over two hours, but under three hours - £200
There's nothing mentioned about being over 3 hours over either driving or duty times, I suspect at that point, you're looking at a court appearance.
Although there don't appear to be points imposed for these infractions, as a van driver, a single penalty of £60 is likely to wipe out most of your pay for that day.
I'll also clarify another point I made earlier; that is, once behind the wheel, you, the driver, is responsible for the vehicle and your driving/duty times.
Yes, management can and likely will get a kicking too, if they're found to be implicit in any infringement, but it's the driver who is legally obliged to drive within the parameters laid down by the law.
Of course, that doesn't stop management in some cases trying to push drivers beyond the limits, but legally, the driver cannot be forced to do something which puts them outside of the legal requirements.
Of course, emergency situations are an allowable exception, for instance, if the driver's been stuck on a closed motorway for hours, he's allowed to exceed the limits in order to reach a safe place to park up.
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