Graduated 2011 - No grad job, need further guidance.
Discussion
Not sure I have put this in before, but....
I personally do not think a grad scheme is the be all and end all. Certainly in my field, Engineering, I feel this way. Of course some grad schemes are indeed very good. They can be a well put together and well organised "training package", but I think it fits a certain type of person well. A person who's sort of happy to be guided somewhat, who's happy to jump through the hoops both the company and the professional body you're going for chartership with will set out for you. For some people these are great and they work out well.
In my short time on a grad scheme I have to say I hated it. It quickly got to the point of trudging into work, walking down the long corridor to the office saying to myself, "Why the heck am I doing this?". Granted this may also have been to do with the almost slap dash, last minute way my particular grad scheme was organised. I found myself being shuffled round departments, stood infront of managers who weren't expecting me (I would arrange pre-placement meetings 2-4 weeks prior and this is when you find out HR haven't bothered to tell anyone about the new grads) and didnt have anything constructive for me to do. Cue exessive boredom and not doing enough varied work to satisfy the IMechE (despite asking and talking with my managers about what I could be doing). In short I felt like I was wasting my time at a company that didnt really give a s
t if it found new blood to replace the guys who still dressed like it was 1973 and couting down the days to their pension. So I made my excuses and left for a PhD.
The other problem was that despite them lengthening your rotations to 4 months, it still wasnt long enough to really get a feel for the work. By the time the managers were a bit more sure of you and you'd got the hang of the way the department works, off you went to the next one to start over. Leaves you feeling like you never really accomplish anything.
When I go apply for jobs again, it'll be direct entry jobs or working for small engineering businesses/consultancies that aren't big enough for grad schemes. Most of my friends are doing ok in their schemes, and I mean just "OK". Nothing special (bar the National Grid guys, that sounds like a very good group to work for). The guys loving things the most? 1 is a PhD in Sweden, 2 more went straight to small, privately owned engineering consultancies. Straight in at the deep end and they are loving it and it seems more rewarding.
After all that, I imagine with big corporates not hiring like they used to, I would guess the SME's are even less willing to take on new hires. Sucks doesn't it. But I would suggest you do find something to do, anything! Just don't do nothing. Thats the worst thing you can do.
I personally do not think a grad scheme is the be all and end all. Certainly in my field, Engineering, I feel this way. Of course some grad schemes are indeed very good. They can be a well put together and well organised "training package", but I think it fits a certain type of person well. A person who's sort of happy to be guided somewhat, who's happy to jump through the hoops both the company and the professional body you're going for chartership with will set out for you. For some people these are great and they work out well.
In my short time on a grad scheme I have to say I hated it. It quickly got to the point of trudging into work, walking down the long corridor to the office saying to myself, "Why the heck am I doing this?". Granted this may also have been to do with the almost slap dash, last minute way my particular grad scheme was organised. I found myself being shuffled round departments, stood infront of managers who weren't expecting me (I would arrange pre-placement meetings 2-4 weeks prior and this is when you find out HR haven't bothered to tell anyone about the new grads) and didnt have anything constructive for me to do. Cue exessive boredom and not doing enough varied work to satisfy the IMechE (despite asking and talking with my managers about what I could be doing). In short I felt like I was wasting my time at a company that didnt really give a s
t if it found new blood to replace the guys who still dressed like it was 1973 and couting down the days to their pension. So I made my excuses and left for a PhD.The other problem was that despite them lengthening your rotations to 4 months, it still wasnt long enough to really get a feel for the work. By the time the managers were a bit more sure of you and you'd got the hang of the way the department works, off you went to the next one to start over. Leaves you feeling like you never really accomplish anything.
When I go apply for jobs again, it'll be direct entry jobs or working for small engineering businesses/consultancies that aren't big enough for grad schemes. Most of my friends are doing ok in their schemes, and I mean just "OK". Nothing special (bar the National Grid guys, that sounds like a very good group to work for). The guys loving things the most? 1 is a PhD in Sweden, 2 more went straight to small, privately owned engineering consultancies. Straight in at the deep end and they are loving it and it seems more rewarding.
After all that, I imagine with big corporates not hiring like they used to, I would guess the SME's are even less willing to take on new hires. Sucks doesn't it. But I would suggest you do find something to do, anything! Just don't do nothing. Thats the worst thing you can do.
Anonymous Caller - not wishing to deflate you but if I might offer up a little advice I'd say that having read your replies to this topic and to the one you posted previously I am not sure you're the right type of bloke for a job in the IB sector. That's no bad thing - there are plenty of jobs earning extremely good money in which I am sure you could do very well.
But the IB sector (as you've seen from all your applications) is extremely competitive and you don't come across as someone who is willing to work 12-16 hour days 6-7 days a week in order to best the next man and earn the big money.
I worked for an IB (Commodity Trading) for a few years and got out in 2008 when things went a bit pear shaped. Best move I ever made. I am extremely good at what I do, but not particularly ruthless and not willing to work 12-16 hour days 6-7 days a week. I would have always been an a medium sized fish in a shark pool. I was well rewarded but didn't especially like where I was.
I've since returned to an oil major (I started in one before moving to an IB). I'm still in the area I love (Commodity Trading) but it's not such a hot house here. The pace is a little easier, the people a LOT friendlier. And I absolutely LOVE my job. The salary is superb and there are junior roles you may stand a much better chance of getting. I'm unlikely to earn millions, but then as much as you can get an impression from someone from their pistonhead posts I don't get the impression you'd be earning millions with an IB either.
If a job strictly in the Finance Sector/IB isn't exactly what you want then drop me a mail with your CV and maybe I can offer up some advice.
So once again - this really isn't meant to be nasty and mean. Just a bit of advice as someone who's seen inside an IB and worked outside them too. I don't feel they are the right place for you or me.
Matt
But the IB sector (as you've seen from all your applications) is extremely competitive and you don't come across as someone who is willing to work 12-16 hour days 6-7 days a week in order to best the next man and earn the big money.
I worked for an IB (Commodity Trading) for a few years and got out in 2008 when things went a bit pear shaped. Best move I ever made. I am extremely good at what I do, but not particularly ruthless and not willing to work 12-16 hour days 6-7 days a week. I would have always been an a medium sized fish in a shark pool. I was well rewarded but didn't especially like where I was.
I've since returned to an oil major (I started in one before moving to an IB). I'm still in the area I love (Commodity Trading) but it's not such a hot house here. The pace is a little easier, the people a LOT friendlier. And I absolutely LOVE my job. The salary is superb and there are junior roles you may stand a much better chance of getting. I'm unlikely to earn millions, but then as much as you can get an impression from someone from their pistonhead posts I don't get the impression you'd be earning millions with an IB either.
If a job strictly in the Finance Sector/IB isn't exactly what you want then drop me a mail with your CV and maybe I can offer up some advice.
So once again - this really isn't meant to be nasty and mean. Just a bit of advice as someone who's seen inside an IB and worked outside them too. I don't feel they are the right place for you or me.
Matt
Hi Matt,
Well, it's been quite an emotionally draining journey so far...
But you're probably right, I can't see myself doing 12-16 hour days, 6-7 days a week.
Based on what you have written, I've had a look at oil majors and I am too late for commodities trading. Most schemes are closed now.
Thanks for the offer of looking over my CV and generating ideas. I've sent you a PM.
What other industries and roles do you think would be worth going after?
Cheers!
Well, it's been quite an emotionally draining journey so far...
But you're probably right, I can't see myself doing 12-16 hour days, 6-7 days a week.
Based on what you have written, I've had a look at oil majors and I am too late for commodities trading. Most schemes are closed now.
Thanks for the offer of looking over my CV and generating ideas. I've sent you a PM.
What other industries and roles do you think would be worth going after?
Cheers!
AnonymousCaller said:
Based on what you have written, I've had a look at oil majors and I am too late for commodities trading. Most schemes are closed now.
There will always be vacancies coming up within the big firms like Shell, Chevron, BP and Exxon (and all have London offices) besides other oil trading firms like ENI, Glencore, Vitol, Unipec, etc. I wouldn't worry too much about specific schemes. Try looking for back, mid or front office junior roles. For instance we have just recruited a number of analysts - all roles directly supporting our trading desks and some were junior roles ideal for graduates.johnfm said:
Some case's what?
Well I know two people that left university with no work experience and are both currently without any work, Including myself 4 people that have completed work placements and have jobs to go to straight after university.I understand that its a small picture but during my interview for graduate roles I used my work experience constantly - I would have been stuck without it
AnonymousCaller said:
Hi Steedy27,
Thanks for your post. Last summer I had my CV up on job boards and so I was interviewing for SMEs, in addition to applying for the big grad employers.
Then I concentrated solely on the big grad schemes at around Winter up 'til now. I wasn't very good at interviews back then with SMEs (or big grad employers), I will be giving SMEs another go very soon.
Looking back I should have done a placement. I didn't because I thought I would struggle with my final year at uni. Never mind, I'll put the advice given here by you and the other posters to good use.
.
.
.
So on a final note, I'll be targeting SMEs over the next several weeks or so (obviously at the very junior level), if there is nothing suitable, I'll be off overseas!
Thanks a lot everyone!
Yep most are all close up now, Maybe you could try getting some temporary work while you wait for the graduate roles to open again around Christmas.Thanks for your post. Last summer I had my CV up on job boards and so I was interviewing for SMEs, in addition to applying for the big grad employers.
Then I concentrated solely on the big grad schemes at around Winter up 'til now. I wasn't very good at interviews back then with SMEs (or big grad employers), I will be giving SMEs another go very soon.
Looking back I should have done a placement. I didn't because I thought I would struggle with my final year at uni. Never mind, I'll put the advice given here by you and the other posters to good use.
.
.
.
So on a final note, I'll be targeting SMEs over the next several weeks or so (obviously at the very junior level), if there is nothing suitable, I'll be off overseas!
Thanks a lot everyone!
Whatever you do good luck, im sure everything will be fine! - I would love to work abroad, A close family member of mine is currently in Mexico City and loving it!
Edited by steedy27 on Tuesday 13th March 22:32
AnonymousCaller said:
Hi Matt,
Well, it's been quite an emotionally draining journey so far...
But you're probably right, I can't see myself doing 12-16 hour days, 6-7 days a week.
Based on what you have written, I've had a look at oil majors and I am too late for commodities trading. Most schemes are closed now.
Thanks for the offer of looking over my CV and generating ideas. I've sent you a PM.
What other industries and roles do you think would be worth going after?
Cheers!
I am at city, doing pt mscWell, it's been quite an emotionally draining journey so far...
But you're probably right, I can't see myself doing 12-16 hour days, 6-7 days a week.
Based on what you have written, I've had a look at oil majors and I am too late for commodities trading. Most schemes are closed now.
Thanks for the offer of looking over my CV and generating ideas. I've sent you a PM.
What other industries and roles do you think would be worth going after?
Cheers!
Give me a pm I can help you
steedy27 said:
Yep most are all close up now, Maybe you could try getting some temporary work while you wait for the graduate roles to open again around Christmas.
Don't think I'll wait 'til Christmas - can't go through the pain of famous grad recruitment schemes again.steedy27 said:
Whatever you do good luck, im sure everything will be fine! - I would love to work abroad, A close family member of mine is currently in Mexico City and loving it!
Thanks a lot!wildman0609 said:
i can't add to much here but, I was in a similar situation in 2010 and couldn't find work after graduating, took me 9 months to get a decent well paid job. went to countless interviews and assesment days, but finally got very lucky.
just be persistant, and don't give up.
Your profile says Director- that's certainly a quick rise to the top! just be persistant, and don't give up.
Hi,
As mentioned previously I run a FS recruitment business. My first thought would be not to beat yourself up- It's tough out there. There are loads of experienced people who have been made redundant who cannot get back into the market, it is nothing to do with you personally.
Why investment banking?
What part of investment banking have you been focusing on (eg front office, middle, back?) You need to be strategic about how you sell yourself and each area of a business will require a different approach. Also be discreet- Front office won't touch you with a barge pole if you've also applied for an ops role.
I've said this on another post but have you though about buy-side? The businesses are smaller which means you can have more impact on what you actually do, the investment strategies are very different (especially within long only businesses), and generally you will have a better work/life balance.
Don't bother with Goldman Sucks- a fantastic brand it may be but if you land an ops analyst role there you'll work from 0700-2100 for a £35k base with a big fat doughnut for a bonus.
A lot of the job titles throughout the industry are very misleading so pay more attention to the role itself. Eg someone mentioned Prime Brokerage as if it's a "big deal". Yes it's an important revenue stream for the bank but ultimately all you are doing is an operations role but for an external client eg a hedge fund that has outsourced its bank office.
You're obviously a bright guy (well done on your 1st) but you need to add a few extra strings to your bow so you stand out from the other 1sts. The IMC is particularly useful for the buy-side and have a look on cityjobs and efinancial as intern slots do get advertised.
Have you thought about going into a consultancy - Deloitte etc?
You need to think about product lines too- Equities is screwed at the moment, FX is pretty vanilla and will always do ok, commodities is strong especially within the emerging markets.
I've jotted down the thoughts as they popped into my slightly hungover head so please excuse the slightly random structure of the post!
All the best.
As mentioned previously I run a FS recruitment business. My first thought would be not to beat yourself up- It's tough out there. There are loads of experienced people who have been made redundant who cannot get back into the market, it is nothing to do with you personally.
Why investment banking?
What part of investment banking have you been focusing on (eg front office, middle, back?) You need to be strategic about how you sell yourself and each area of a business will require a different approach. Also be discreet- Front office won't touch you with a barge pole if you've also applied for an ops role.
I've said this on another post but have you though about buy-side? The businesses are smaller which means you can have more impact on what you actually do, the investment strategies are very different (especially within long only businesses), and generally you will have a better work/life balance.
Don't bother with Goldman Sucks- a fantastic brand it may be but if you land an ops analyst role there you'll work from 0700-2100 for a £35k base with a big fat doughnut for a bonus.
A lot of the job titles throughout the industry are very misleading so pay more attention to the role itself. Eg someone mentioned Prime Brokerage as if it's a "big deal". Yes it's an important revenue stream for the bank but ultimately all you are doing is an operations role but for an external client eg a hedge fund that has outsourced its bank office.
You're obviously a bright guy (well done on your 1st) but you need to add a few extra strings to your bow so you stand out from the other 1sts. The IMC is particularly useful for the buy-side and have a look on cityjobs and efinancial as intern slots do get advertised.
Have you thought about going into a consultancy - Deloitte etc?
You need to think about product lines too- Equities is screwed at the moment, FX is pretty vanilla and will always do ok, commodities is strong especially within the emerging markets.
I've jotted down the thoughts as they popped into my slightly hungover head so please excuse the slightly random structure of the post!
All the best.
NickHKent said:
Hi,
As mentioned previously I run a FS recruitment business. My first thought would be not to beat yourself up- It's tough out there. There are loads of experienced people who have been made redundant who cannot get back into the market, it is nothing to do with you personally.
Why investment banking?
I fancied the money and learning about financial markets in more depth, but I must stress that I did not limit myself to investment banking - I went for other posts I felt my degree would be suitable for.
What part of investment banking have you been focusing on (eg front office, middle, back?) You need to be strategic about how you sell yourself and each area of a business will require a different approach. Also be discreet- Front office won't touch you with a barge pole if you've also applied for an ops role.
I'm far from an expert in investment banking but here we go: last year I went for "investment banking analyst" (front office job description), "corporate debt capital markets" (front office job description), "global transaction banking" (unsure which office), "corporate treasury" (middle office), "corporate banking" (possibly front office) amongst other roles (non investment banking).
I've said this on another post but have you though about buy-side? The businesses are smaller which means you can have more impact on what you actually do, the investment strategies are very different (especially within long only businesses), and generally you will have a better work/life balance.
Had to look up what you meant by buy-side. Yes I did apply to a buy-side company, wasn't successful at interview (foolishly had too much on at the same time). Do you know of any good buy-side companies?
Don't bother with Goldman Sucks- a fantastic brand it may be but if you land an ops analyst role there you'll work from 0700-2100 for a £35k base with a big fat doughnut for a bonus.
Indeed, I'm the sort of person who needs some me time.
A lot of the job titles throughout the industry are very misleading so pay more attention to the role itself. Eg someone mentioned Prime Brokerage as if it's a "big deal". Yes it's an important revenue stream for the bank but ultimately all you are doing is an operations role but for an external client eg a hedge fund that has outsourced its bank office.
You're obviously a bright guy (well done on your 1st) but you need to add a few extra strings to your bow so you stand out from the other 1sts. The IMC is particularly useful for the buy-side and have a look on cityjobs and efinancial as intern slots do get advertised.
Will have a look, thanks.
Have you thought about going into a consultancy - Deloitte etc?
Yep, I thought about going into consultancy but not with Deloitte. With Deloitte et al, I applied for other roles and failed to deliver the goods at interview.
You need to think about product lines too- Equities is screwed at the moment, FX is pretty vanilla and will always do ok, commodities is strong especially within the emerging markets.
Yes, 'NewNameNeeded' suggested I have a look at commodities, at oil/gas majors especially.
I've jotted down the thoughts as they popped into my slightly hungover head so please excuse the slightly random structure of the post!
All the best.
It's a pretty good post even if you are not hung over! Thanks a lot for the support and advice!As mentioned previously I run a FS recruitment business. My first thought would be not to beat yourself up- It's tough out there. There are loads of experienced people who have been made redundant who cannot get back into the market, it is nothing to do with you personally.
Why investment banking?
I fancied the money and learning about financial markets in more depth, but I must stress that I did not limit myself to investment banking - I went for other posts I felt my degree would be suitable for.
What part of investment banking have you been focusing on (eg front office, middle, back?) You need to be strategic about how you sell yourself and each area of a business will require a different approach. Also be discreet- Front office won't touch you with a barge pole if you've also applied for an ops role.
I'm far from an expert in investment banking but here we go: last year I went for "investment banking analyst" (front office job description), "corporate debt capital markets" (front office job description), "global transaction banking" (unsure which office), "corporate treasury" (middle office), "corporate banking" (possibly front office) amongst other roles (non investment banking).
I've said this on another post but have you though about buy-side? The businesses are smaller which means you can have more impact on what you actually do, the investment strategies are very different (especially within long only businesses), and generally you will have a better work/life balance.
Had to look up what you meant by buy-side. Yes I did apply to a buy-side company, wasn't successful at interview (foolishly had too much on at the same time). Do you know of any good buy-side companies?
Don't bother with Goldman Sucks- a fantastic brand it may be but if you land an ops analyst role there you'll work from 0700-2100 for a £35k base with a big fat doughnut for a bonus.
Indeed, I'm the sort of person who needs some me time.
A lot of the job titles throughout the industry are very misleading so pay more attention to the role itself. Eg someone mentioned Prime Brokerage as if it's a "big deal". Yes it's an important revenue stream for the bank but ultimately all you are doing is an operations role but for an external client eg a hedge fund that has outsourced its bank office.
You're obviously a bright guy (well done on your 1st) but you need to add a few extra strings to your bow so you stand out from the other 1sts. The IMC is particularly useful for the buy-side and have a look on cityjobs and efinancial as intern slots do get advertised.
Will have a look, thanks.
Have you thought about going into a consultancy - Deloitte etc?
Yep, I thought about going into consultancy but not with Deloitte. With Deloitte et al, I applied for other roles and failed to deliver the goods at interview.
You need to think about product lines too- Equities is screwed at the moment, FX is pretty vanilla and will always do ok, commodities is strong especially within the emerging markets.
Yes, 'NewNameNeeded' suggested I have a look at commodities, at oil/gas majors especially.
I've jotted down the thoughts as they popped into my slightly hungover head so please excuse the slightly random structure of the post!
All the best.
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