Business development manager, sales, marketing person ?
Discussion
BGARK said:
I agree its probably tricky in your world where you don't offer a physical item for sale, with what I do/make it must be 100% perfect and top quality, and if a customer is unhappy or complains gets a complete refund. I want an ongoing relationship with clients who spread the work, not a hit and run scenario.
Which is cool, but this falls into the point I made earlier about setting out what you do and what you dont doIt might be that an agency does a piece of work for you, and it costs £X. That's them done, they do the work, they help you, provide their services and they're back again next month
You want different things from different people or companies, and trying to muddy lines on who does what leads to a mess. Keep it clean, keep it sharp and everyone focus on what they do well
BGARK said:
Frimley111R said:
BGARK said:
Frimley111R said:
set up a marketing programme with an agency
How many agencies would do this on a commission / ROI basis?Perhaps all I'd add to this is, choose an agency with a focus on the commercial element of marketing, not just a design/website agency. Make sure you are dealing with marketing experts, not simply website designers, PPC specialists if you are looking for a programme/strategy/direction.
Over time experience shows what you can expect and when and from doing what but starting from scratch will inevitably be, to some extent, a learning process and I'd argue that it always will be although as time goes on the learning (i.e. testing new/better way to generate leads) will decrease.
Frimley111R said:
Indeed. Ideally all businesses should use marketing to acquire and retain customers/clients using a programme so they they know what they are spending and what they expect to receive in terms of orders. For example, the next month you know you will spend £X on PPC, content marketing, emailing and social media. From this you know that you should expect X leads of which you will convert XX% to orders.
Over time experience shows what you can expect and when and from doing what but starting from scratch will inevitably be, to some extent, a learning process and I'd argue that it always will be although as time goes on the learning (i.e. testing new/better way to generate leads) will decrease.
Agreed, and I have sat around many a table nodding about marketing strategies, various jargon and all good theoretical stuff, what I need is someone who can actually roll up their sleeves and get on with it, and do it very well with clear discipline and repetitive monthly structure. Over time experience shows what you can expect and when and from doing what but starting from scratch will inevitably be, to some extent, a learning process and I'd argue that it always will be although as time goes on the learning (i.e. testing new/better way to generate leads) will decrease.
Either that or I employ someone to do it, but... see original post.
Reading between the lines I expect you have chaotic and uncontrolled selling by your "eccentric engineers". They probably mostly pursue (and prepare bids for) opportunities which interest them technically, and don't generally consider the commercial or strategic aspects.
I also expect they project manage these jobs themselves, probably sorting out their own project purchasing (you may have a buyer but they just process the requisitions) and sales invoicing (the finance department will raise the invoices once the engineer has remembered to tell them, which they frequently forget as that's the 'boring' non-technical part).
Although your clients like working with your engineers and you've won most of your work on the basis of a good reputation for delivering quality, well engineered, solutions, you recognise that the company can't carry on working this way and grow to its full potential.
If any of the above is even partially correct then I believe you need to consider more than just the lack of sales & marketing. Adding more sales, albeit in a disciplined and structured way (i.e. you know what your sales opportunities pipeline looks like, you can analyse your market segments and have a strategy to maximise them), into an existing chaotic project delivery process won't be a good outcome. Trust me, I've been there...
I also expect they project manage these jobs themselves, probably sorting out their own project purchasing (you may have a buyer but they just process the requisitions) and sales invoicing (the finance department will raise the invoices once the engineer has remembered to tell them, which they frequently forget as that's the 'boring' non-technical part).
Although your clients like working with your engineers and you've won most of your work on the basis of a good reputation for delivering quality, well engineered, solutions, you recognise that the company can't carry on working this way and grow to its full potential.
If any of the above is even partially correct then I believe you need to consider more than just the lack of sales & marketing. Adding more sales, albeit in a disciplined and structured way (i.e. you know what your sales opportunities pipeline looks like, you can analyse your market segments and have a strategy to maximise them), into an existing chaotic project delivery process won't be a good outcome. Trust me, I've been there...
TwoLeadFeet said:
Reading between the lines I expect you have chaotic and uncontrolled selling by your "eccentric engineers". They probably mostly pursue (and prepare bids for) opportunities which interest them technically, and don't generally consider the commercial or strategic aspects.
I also expect they project manage these jobs themselves, probably sorting out their own project purchasing (you may have a buyer but they just process the requisitions) and sales invoicing (the finance department will raise the invoices once the engineer has remembered to tell them, which they frequently forget as that's the 'boring' non-technical part).
Although your clients like working with your engineers and you've won most of your work on the basis of a good reputation for delivering quality, well engineered, solutions, you recognise that the company can't carry on working this way and grow to its full potential.
If any of the above is even partially correct then I believe you need to consider more than just the lack of sales & marketing. Adding more sales, albeit in a disciplined and structured way (i.e. you know what your sales opportunities pipeline looks like, you can analyse your market segments and have a strategy to maximise them), into an existing chaotic project delivery process won't be a good outcome. Trust me, I've been there...
Almost 100% correct.I also expect they project manage these jobs themselves, probably sorting out their own project purchasing (you may have a buyer but they just process the requisitions) and sales invoicing (the finance department will raise the invoices once the engineer has remembered to tell them, which they frequently forget as that's the 'boring' non-technical part).
Although your clients like working with your engineers and you've won most of your work on the basis of a good reputation for delivering quality, well engineered, solutions, you recognise that the company can't carry on working this way and grow to its full potential.
If any of the above is even partially correct then I believe you need to consider more than just the lack of sales & marketing. Adding more sales, albeit in a disciplined and structured way (i.e. you know what your sales opportunities pipeline looks like, you can analyse your market segments and have a strategy to maximise them), into an existing chaotic project delivery process won't be a good outcome. Trust me, I've been there...
You've got growing pains and some internal realignment is required?
From how you've described the issues you have a well motivated and knowledgeable team which means I would be sharing your thoughts with them, or at least a few of your senior people. Whats the metrics for your industry< £???? per employee, how does that sit? It seems you have duplication and its always good to step back from the business to ensure you have the clarity and the depth of vision you need to grow the business internally. Part of that aspect is restructuring the business. Historic strong growth leads to organic growth for internal processes and responsibilities which is great for the short term and caps capacity as duplication is an outcome of this model. Nothing wrong with that but you need to evolve .
Your sales answer may be already employed internally and a increased scope for responsibility may suit both parties. A possible part time role to grow over time. Given your specialism you are always entering this market with one arm behind your back. Either upskilling a technical person or training a salesperson in the technical aspects and you want these skills encapsulated rather than just performing as an extra layer with without adding value.
Internal talent management negates unknown's coming into the equation, reduces risk and cost. Whats not to like!
Having a decent salesperson will mean you exact the best value out of each of your accounts and target prospective customers.
Give your business model I'd question the thinking of a marketing body? Your reputation is great, add a decent sales capability and it will turn out well but without improving your pipeline, as someone else alluded too will have water hitting the ceiling through the cracks in the pipe rather than a dribble. So look at your internal processes to take out duplication and realign where needed but consult first and at least when you execute if someone disagrees- they a least know why you are executing in a certain way.
Not knowing where you are in your growth cycle it could be down to you to get on your bike and sell and delegate set responsibilities to your senior team. i appreciate you may not want to sell, but when has that ever come into the equation!
Best wishes.
From how you've described the issues you have a well motivated and knowledgeable team which means I would be sharing your thoughts with them, or at least a few of your senior people. Whats the metrics for your industry< £???? per employee, how does that sit? It seems you have duplication and its always good to step back from the business to ensure you have the clarity and the depth of vision you need to grow the business internally. Part of that aspect is restructuring the business. Historic strong growth leads to organic growth for internal processes and responsibilities which is great for the short term and caps capacity as duplication is an outcome of this model. Nothing wrong with that but you need to evolve .
Your sales answer may be already employed internally and a increased scope for responsibility may suit both parties. A possible part time role to grow over time. Given your specialism you are always entering this market with one arm behind your back. Either upskilling a technical person or training a salesperson in the technical aspects and you want these skills encapsulated rather than just performing as an extra layer with without adding value.
Internal talent management negates unknown's coming into the equation, reduces risk and cost. Whats not to like!
Having a decent salesperson will mean you exact the best value out of each of your accounts and target prospective customers.
Give your business model I'd question the thinking of a marketing body? Your reputation is great, add a decent sales capability and it will turn out well but without improving your pipeline, as someone else alluded too will have water hitting the ceiling through the cracks in the pipe rather than a dribble. So look at your internal processes to take out duplication and realign where needed but consult first and at least when you execute if someone disagrees- they a least know why you are executing in a certain way.
Not knowing where you are in your growth cycle it could be down to you to get on your bike and sell and delegate set responsibilities to your senior team. i appreciate you may not want to sell, but when has that ever come into the equation!
Best wishes.
Frimley111R said:
A good sales person will not be a good marketing person
A good marketing person will not be a good sales person
Etc.
Don't make the mistake of thinking you can get someone who can do all of these things well. IMO I'd set up a marketing programme with an agency and then make sure you have a good in-bound sales person to manage the leads.
Crap - i'm a sales and marketing director and i'm good at both thank you very much A good marketing person will not be a good sales person
Etc.
Don't make the mistake of thinking you can get someone who can do all of these things well. IMO I'd set up a marketing programme with an agency and then make sure you have a good in-bound sales person to manage the leads.
I might just add some comments, if it helps...
With regard to someone 'multi-skilled' to take on this role, I am assuming it encompasses the following:
Rationalising the company's 'vision and strategy', what markets to engage with and how best to 'market' to them once identified, promotion including new / novel / previously untried methods to do so, including exploring trade networking, electronic / traditional passive sales tools, website development including SEO, ranking and Google optimisation, tracking and customer identification / callback opportunites, e-commerce, active sales tools including business development, and constantly motivating and directing a team to do so through multiple channels, driving existing customers and finding / retaining new customers, CRM and possibly implementing some new software / tools to keep up effective CRM, all whilst tying a coherent brand together across all these channels, creating an easily identifiable and memorable corporate identity, distinguishing and separating this identity from competitors, and hence selling via a recognisable advantage over the competition without cheapening the brand by just desperately engaging in ever-spiralling downwards discounting, and having a race to the bottom over pricing..?
Does that basically cover most of the salient requirements? If so, then I might have an idea for you
I've been employed in a fair few senior management positions in the corporate sector in larger companies over the years - but specialising more in narrowed, specific parts of that picture I have painted above. It works ok if each of the sector's managers have a great working relationship with each other, and (are forced even!) to regularly communicate with one another over the main goal and strategy, and agree their parts and roles in doing so, without treading on one another's toes. If at any point the synergy fails, then the entire collective effort also fails with it. Hence you may have a brilliant Sales Director, one or two brilliant Sales execs, a brilliant Marketing Director, a brilliant website developer, a brilliant GM....but they should always be more than the sum of their parts.
I have found that if no-one is co-ordinating ALL their roles, and taking ownership of the general goal and strategy, then sometimes efforts are duplicated, with other areas missed out entirely, and worst of all - people are unwittingly pulling in different directions.
SO what I am trying to say, realising that I am waffling now is that you should give serious consideration to interviewing and employing someone who has started or run their own small business in the past? I am sure it wouldn't be against the rules to say in the advert 'this role might suit a person whom has run their own business in the past....' or something along those lines.
Why? Because from all my corporate experience, I THOUGHT I was an expert in this / that / the other. But it turns out I was only really an expert in the more niche parts of my roles. It wasn't until I started and successfully ran two small businesses of my own (which I sold on as going concerns)that I recognised the rare skills required to incorporate ALL of the factors I mentioned above, into one role. Horrible, tiring, exhausting, relentless - yes! But as a tool to learn VERY quickly what works / what doesn't work, focusing and streamlining a corporate identity, and how to best drive business - it was invaluable, and a very quick, steep learning curve! A small business thrives or dies in the blink of an eye - and just one poor decision or marketing investment can be catastrophic.
I am proud to say that I started and successfully developed my first business totally from scratch, on a shoestring budget, at the beginning of the recession in 2008 with a lot of my own market research 'on the ground' so to speak - involving basically putting in the hard yards myself on foot, walking round looking at competitors, possible sites, footfall, and doorstepping strangers in the street in a town centre to ask hundreds of them a bunch of marketing questions - which was as horrendously soul-destroying as it sounds! But it gave me an insight into what real customers want, rather than trying to second guess my potential market from behind a desk in an office. Does that make sense? A huge proportion of successful sales and marketing only really comes from personal engagement on a grass roots level. You can't 'blue sky' this stuff, if you'll forgive a cliche. You only get results from proper groundwork.
I'm not some Richard Branson by the way - I just did ok from them, and I didn't become a millionaire. I might have done if I had stuck at it, but after 4 or 5 years, I became tired and a bit resentful at the loss of my own personal life too - essential if you want to be successful, but no good if you also value your health and social life. So, either my comments will be helpful, or you might dismiss them as amateur ramblings, I dunno
But as I say, I think if you find someone who has done something similar to myself - then you will have found someone who understands the 'big picture' - dammit, another cliche, sorry!
Hope this helps
With regard to someone 'multi-skilled' to take on this role, I am assuming it encompasses the following:
Rationalising the company's 'vision and strategy', what markets to engage with and how best to 'market' to them once identified, promotion including new / novel / previously untried methods to do so, including exploring trade networking, electronic / traditional passive sales tools, website development including SEO, ranking and Google optimisation, tracking and customer identification / callback opportunites, e-commerce, active sales tools including business development, and constantly motivating and directing a team to do so through multiple channels, driving existing customers and finding / retaining new customers, CRM and possibly implementing some new software / tools to keep up effective CRM, all whilst tying a coherent brand together across all these channels, creating an easily identifiable and memorable corporate identity, distinguishing and separating this identity from competitors, and hence selling via a recognisable advantage over the competition without cheapening the brand by just desperately engaging in ever-spiralling downwards discounting, and having a race to the bottom over pricing..?
Does that basically cover most of the salient requirements? If so, then I might have an idea for you
I've been employed in a fair few senior management positions in the corporate sector in larger companies over the years - but specialising more in narrowed, specific parts of that picture I have painted above. It works ok if each of the sector's managers have a great working relationship with each other, and (are forced even!) to regularly communicate with one another over the main goal and strategy, and agree their parts and roles in doing so, without treading on one another's toes. If at any point the synergy fails, then the entire collective effort also fails with it. Hence you may have a brilliant Sales Director, one or two brilliant Sales execs, a brilliant Marketing Director, a brilliant website developer, a brilliant GM....but they should always be more than the sum of their parts.
I have found that if no-one is co-ordinating ALL their roles, and taking ownership of the general goal and strategy, then sometimes efforts are duplicated, with other areas missed out entirely, and worst of all - people are unwittingly pulling in different directions.
SO what I am trying to say, realising that I am waffling now
is that you should give serious consideration to interviewing and employing someone who has started or run their own small business in the past? I am sure it wouldn't be against the rules to say in the advert 'this role might suit a person whom has run their own business in the past....' or something along those lines.Why? Because from all my corporate experience, I THOUGHT I was an expert in this / that / the other. But it turns out I was only really an expert in the more niche parts of my roles. It wasn't until I started and successfully ran two small businesses of my own (which I sold on as going concerns)that I recognised the rare skills required to incorporate ALL of the factors I mentioned above, into one role. Horrible, tiring, exhausting, relentless - yes! But as a tool to learn VERY quickly what works / what doesn't work, focusing and streamlining a corporate identity, and how to best drive business - it was invaluable, and a very quick, steep learning curve! A small business thrives or dies in the blink of an eye - and just one poor decision or marketing investment can be catastrophic.
I am proud to say that I started and successfully developed my first business totally from scratch, on a shoestring budget, at the beginning of the recession in 2008 with a lot of my own market research 'on the ground' so to speak - involving basically putting in the hard yards myself on foot, walking round looking at competitors, possible sites, footfall, and doorstepping strangers in the street in a town centre to ask hundreds of them a bunch of marketing questions - which was as horrendously soul-destroying as it sounds! But it gave me an insight into what real customers want, rather than trying to second guess my potential market from behind a desk in an office. Does that make sense? A huge proportion of successful sales and marketing only really comes from personal engagement on a grass roots level. You can't 'blue sky' this stuff, if you'll forgive a cliche. You only get results from proper groundwork.
I'm not some Richard Branson by the way - I just did ok from them, and I didn't become a millionaire. I might have done if I had stuck at it, but after 4 or 5 years, I became tired and a bit resentful at the loss of my own personal life too - essential if you want to be successful, but no good if you also value your health and social life. So, either my comments will be helpful, or you might dismiss them as amateur ramblings, I dunno
But as I say, I think if you find someone who has done something similar to myself - then you will have found someone who understands the 'big picture' - dammit, another cliche, sorry!
Hope this helps
Perhaps there isn't really a one size fits all approach here? If you have grown organically, and it works for your company at present, then this may be something that makes your business stick out from the rest [For example, potential clients can discuss directly to the person working on the project?].
If you put in a business development/Sales, then you need to be wary of them becoming the main point of contact for your organisation. I would suggest a team of two, one direct sales/marketing for new clients, and one direct client relations manager for current clients to take some of the strain off your current staff & the sales person.
If you put in a business development/Sales, then you need to be wary of them becoming the main point of contact for your organisation. I would suggest a team of two, one direct sales/marketing for new clients, and one direct client relations manager for current clients to take some of the strain off your current staff & the sales person.
DragsterRR said:
What do ya make dammit? 
I cannot really say on here, but pretty much almost anything.My passion is in innovation and new ideas, talking something from a sketch on a white board through to CAD modelling, prototype and production. (although I get some help on the CAD part)
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