Making a key worker redundant

[edc]

selwonk said:

Just a quick update...

Somewhere between being made redundant on Friday and this morning, they have realised that they should have followed the correct procedure. So it's now:

1. First meeting last Friday to discuss redundancy.
2. Second meeting today to confirm redundancy.
3. Third meeting on Friday to confirm redundancy package.

It's all a bit of a cock up but so far so good. I'll keep you posted.

Thanks again.

As Breadvan has already guided worry less about the correct formality of the process and more about the next job. As you've found out most managers and owners of business don't have the first clue when it comes to correct procedures in these and similar situations. They may not be spiteful or intentionally unfair. On the face of it you accept the reasoning behind the redundancy. Use the calculator on the .gov.uk website to work out your statutory redundancy payment, perhaps even forward it to the employer.

[selwonk]

We've not pushed the matter about due process at all. We're just hopeful that it's a good sign that they will do everything properly. We know what she should be due if the online calculator is used and with a bit of luck an amicable arrangement can be reached.

Edited by selwonk on Monday 15th May 13:45

[edc]

selwonk said:

We've not pushed the matter about due process at all. We're just hope it's a good sign that they will do everything properly. We know what she should be due if the online calculator is used and with a bit of luck an amicable arrangement can be reached.

What do you mean by 'amicable arrangement'? She is due whatever is stated under her contract and if she is eligible for a statutory redundancy payment then that as well. If you want more then that is at the Company's discretion and may not necessarily be a tax free payment.

[selwonk]

We don't want more than that. We want to meet in the middle in respect of the reduced hours over the last 10 weeks which, whether deliberate or not, don't reflect the average hours worked over the last 6 years.

[edc]

selwonk said:

We don't want more than that. We want to meet in the middle in respect of the reduced hours over the last 10 weeks which, whether deliberate or not, don't reflect the average hours worked over the last 6 years.

These sorts of issues are why there should be a consultation process.

[selwonk]

Yes; exactly. ;-)

[selwonk]

Just a quick update and another question...

They have now involved the Federation of Small Business and reneged on their offer of payment in lieu of notice. They are, however, calculating the redundancy package on 4 rather than 2 days, which is good.

My wife has now received her second redundancy consultation letter and will be having the final meeting on Friday. This will be the meeting to agree that the redundancy will go ahead, a foregone conclusion. My wife will also tell them whether she wishes to work her notice or not.

The letter offers two clear choices:

1. To remain working as normal, or from home if she prefers.
2. To choose not to work her notice, and leave would be granted but would be unpaid.

She does not wish to work her notice period of 5 weeks.

Does this mean that her finish date would then be Friday? Is there any way that they can try to delay the redundancy payment until the end of the 5 weeks?

She feels like the sword of Damocles is hanging over her and just wants to leave and crack on with finding a new job.

Thanks again.

[edc]

You can't have your cake and eat it. The company respects and honours the contractual notice. But she doesn't want to work. Why would she expect to be paid? The company may have a right to exercise PILON but this would be in the contract.

[edc]

Also the redundancy payment would be at the end of the employment. You can't pay it as a genuine redundancy payment in say May then in June pay a further salary.

[edc]

The company should also offer reasonable time off whisky working the notice to attend interviews etc.

[McCrae1971]

Take advice on not wanting to work her notice as she could loose out on that payment. It's the companies decision if they want employees to work their notice.
Make sure everything is in writing and if in doubt do not sign anything.
I'd always recommend taking someone in to the meeting who understands the process.

[selwonk]

edc said:

You can't have your cake and eat it. The company respects and honours the contractual notice. But she doesn't want to work. Why would she expect to be paid? The company may have a right to exercise PILON but this would be in the contract.

She doesn't expect to be paid; they offered her PILON then withdrew it.

[selwonk]

edc said:

Also the redundancy payment would be at the end of the employment. You can't pay it as a genuine redundancy payment in say May then in June pay a further salary.

OK, but when does employment end in these circumstances? That's what we're not clear on.

[selwonk]

McCrae1971 said:

Take advice on not wanting to work her notice as she could loose out on that payment. It's the companies decision if they want employees to work their notice.
Make sure everything is in writing and if in doubt do not sign anything.
I'd always recommend taking someone in to the meeting who understands the process.

We have it in writing that they are offering her the choice of not working her notice period.

They did offer to allow her to have someone in on the meeting but a) she is not a union member and b) it's all been done at such short notice it's not practical.

[selwonk]

Just another quick update following a call to ACAS...

In their opinion, my wife can not be forced to work the notice period, as it has been offered in writing that she can decline to do so if she wishes and will not be paid. That's fine.

It will not affect her redundancy payment but they can choose to pay it after the notice period has expired. Great. We fully expect that the FSB will tell them to do that.

So, the only other thing that might be lurking is an unfair redundancy package as she has not been given any figures yet. She will ask tomorrow for the redundancy payment to be brought forward to coincide with her leaving but don't really expect them to do that now.

[anonymous-user]

edc said:

selwonk said:

We've not pushed the matter about due process at all. We're just hope it's a good sign that they will do everything properly. We know what she should be due if the online calculator is used and with a bit of luck an amicable arrangement can be reached.

What do you mean by 'amicable arrangement'? She is due whatever is stated under her contract and if she is eligible for a statutory redundancy payment then that as well. If you want more then that is at the Company's discretion and may not necessarily be a tax free payment.

What a strange attitude. Jaw jaw is always better than war war, and being a stickler for entitlements rather than seeing a big picture deal can be a silly approach. There is often a deal to be had, through sensible talking.

[anonymous-user]

Taking legal advice from ACAS is like taking legal advice from a random car forum. In other words: plain dumb.

[selwonk]

She is trying to keep everything on an amicable footing. So far there is no animosity. We fear that might change tomorrow.

We have nothing in writing about the offer; we had hoped this would have been provided by now. We just have to hope it's fair.

The most worrying part is if the payment is deferred until the end of the notice period. On the basis that they are making her redundant on the basis that they can not afford to pay her, we wanted to try to ensure that we had the money at the earliest opportunity.

There is, naturally, a great deal of self-interest by both parties. She does not need the stress of any sort of animosity, but neither does she want to be trodden all over.

[selwonk]

Breadvan72 said:

Taking legal advice from ACAS is like taking legal advice from a random car forum. In other words: plain dumb.

So, who else can we turn to? We've gratefully accepted all the advice in this thread and ACAS agrees with pretty much everything above. Neither of us has been made redundant before. We have read the statutory obligations in respect of redundancy, but it doesn't seem to be worth the paper it's written on.

We're not stupid people. We're just trying to carefully thread our way through a tricky situation!

[anonymous-user]

selwonk said:

edc said:

Also the redundancy payment would be at the end of the employment. You can't pay it as a genuine redundancy payment in say May then in June pay a further salary.

OK, but when does employment end in these circumstances? That's what we're not clear on.

Employment ends at the effective date of termination - in this case the end of the notice period.

It used to be the case that if an employer wanted an employee on leave during the notice period, the employer had to pay the employee during that period, and many employers still use paid garden leave, for good commercial reasons. If, however, the employer offers the employee the chance to work during the notice period, and the employee chooses not to work, the employer can then say "OK, you can be on leave, but without pay". This is the effect of a Court of Appeal decision from a few years ago.

Absent an express garden leave clause, the employee can usually insist on being given work to do. If the employer refuses to offer work, the employee can quit (assuming garden leave not available), or accept garden leave, but that is paid leave.

The employee remains subject to the obligations of loyalty and so on during the notice period. Taking work from elsewhere without permission (including self employment) could lead to summary dismissal, and loss of the redundancy payment.

The Daily Mail tells us (and it seems from NPE that many on PH believe every word in the Daily Mail) that employers have few rights, and that employees hold all the cards. As you can see, this is far from true. The few cards that employees do hold were cards given to them by Labour Governments (remember those?), or by the EU (remember that?). Post Brexit, employees will be holding fewer and weaker cards.