Issues with colleague (performance and mediation)
Discussion
Thanks for the message psi310398.
I'm genuinely not concerned about tribunal thankfully, if it happens it happens and I imagine the firm's legal team will kick in. If we reach that state then I'll stand by the interview and discussions I've already been through which are clear and factual about everything I've said and done.
By way of background, some of the complaints to date have been:
- She sent an email about annual leave and asked our team (around 10 people) to let her know if we had any objections. I had none so I didn't reply. Another trainee also sent one a few weeks later and I replied reminding him of a deadline falling during his leave. Accusation - I favourited him over her by replying to him.
- She drafted an email for a client to send something out that wasn't due to go out until a few weeks later with another deliverable. This was wholly unnecessary (and also extremely OTT - the email was huge and full of repetition) and she did it off her own back without giving me a heads up, so I politely replied thanking her for this and noted that we would hold this until the other deliverable was ready as they would go together as a package. Accusation - I didn't applaud her pro activeness. Reality - she's spent at least an hour doing something which had zero value.
- Lots of complaints about emails having a bad "tone" (my emails are professional, properly structured and always signed off, sadly I even pay particular attention to hers to include all the necessary pleases and thank yous).
- I sent an email at 17:35 one night. Accusation - I created an expectation that I wanted her to work out of hours. Reality - I'd been in meetings all afternoon and she left at 17:30 on the dot so I missed her, I also wasn't due in the office until late morning the next day so I sent her a note when I got back to my desk that evening on something we were working on together.
- Disputes all development points I've given her. Reality - I'm senior to her, qualified in my role and specialise in junior coaching and training. I've led the last two years tax technical training for new graduates in our region.
Etc etc.
To be honest, what I would like to do is aid the firm in any way in clearing up this matter (i.e. seeing the end of this and the end of working with this person). My hope is that if I do attend mediation, it will only further highlight that she is the problem and has the issues, and my position is that I don't have an issue. I've fully cooperated so far and I'd like to continue to do so, but only as far as it doesn't introduce any issues for me. I'm now debating mediation all over again.
To answer your latter query - I am currently on track for a summer promotion and should find out in the next few weeks, but so far everything is looking positive. I'd really like to think that this isn't an exercise to test me, if it is then I think I'll be reassessing my employment if so because it's been a very unpleasant experience for me and my work are well aware that I have some quite serious issues outside of work, so if I thought this was a test then I'd be really disappointed.
Also, there have been four of us involved in this process, one at the same grade as me, one a grade a senior and one is two grades senior. The rest of the team (right up to the top) has given us their full support and I've been personally reassured of my position.
Thanks.
I'm genuinely not concerned about tribunal thankfully, if it happens it happens and I imagine the firm's legal team will kick in. If we reach that state then I'll stand by the interview and discussions I've already been through which are clear and factual about everything I've said and done.
By way of background, some of the complaints to date have been:
- She sent an email about annual leave and asked our team (around 10 people) to let her know if we had any objections. I had none so I didn't reply. Another trainee also sent one a few weeks later and I replied reminding him of a deadline falling during his leave. Accusation - I favourited him over her by replying to him.
- She drafted an email for a client to send something out that wasn't due to go out until a few weeks later with another deliverable. This was wholly unnecessary (and also extremely OTT - the email was huge and full of repetition) and she did it off her own back without giving me a heads up, so I politely replied thanking her for this and noted that we would hold this until the other deliverable was ready as they would go together as a package. Accusation - I didn't applaud her pro activeness. Reality - she's spent at least an hour doing something which had zero value.
- Lots of complaints about emails having a bad "tone" (my emails are professional, properly structured and always signed off, sadly I even pay particular attention to hers to include all the necessary pleases and thank yous).
- I sent an email at 17:35 one night. Accusation - I created an expectation that I wanted her to work out of hours. Reality - I'd been in meetings all afternoon and she left at 17:30 on the dot so I missed her, I also wasn't due in the office until late morning the next day so I sent her a note when I got back to my desk that evening on something we were working on together.
- Disputes all development points I've given her. Reality - I'm senior to her, qualified in my role and specialise in junior coaching and training. I've led the last two years tax technical training for new graduates in our region.
Etc etc.
To be honest, what I would like to do is aid the firm in any way in clearing up this matter (i.e. seeing the end of this and the end of working with this person). My hope is that if I do attend mediation, it will only further highlight that she is the problem and has the issues, and my position is that I don't have an issue. I've fully cooperated so far and I'd like to continue to do so, but only as far as it doesn't introduce any issues for me. I'm now debating mediation all over again.
To answer your latter query - I am currently on track for a summer promotion and should find out in the next few weeks, but so far everything is looking positive. I'd really like to think that this isn't an exercise to test me, if it is then I think I'll be reassessing my employment if so because it's been a very unpleasant experience for me and my work are well aware that I have some quite serious issues outside of work, so if I thought this was a test then I'd be really disappointed.
Also, there have been four of us involved in this process, one at the same grade as me, one a grade a senior and one is two grades senior. The rest of the team (right up to the top) has given us their full support and I've been personally reassured of my position.
Thanks.
Edited by HomesRose on Monday 29th May 22:52
oldbanger said:
OP I appreciate that this is genuinely no laughing matter but ... oh my ... those complaints are worthy of one of those "world's silliest .. " type compilations.
... does she have an underlying mental illness, do you think?
I know, I know. There were some other interesting ones in the mix but I'd be here all night writing them up.... does she have an underlying mental illness, do you think?
In all seriousness, I don't think that she does. I think she's just lived a life of success and praise from her friends and family to date and is struggling with the reality that she isn't perfect at what can be a pretty challenging and demanding job at times.
To add, I think with all of these situations there are learning opportunities, even if it's to spot the warning signs for next time. However, there may genuinely be points of learning here about managing difficult people, be it clients or staff.
Mark Goulston has a great book called Talking to Crazy which might be an interesting read (and some other great books for professionals looking to become better communicators overall)
Mark Goulston has a great book called Talking to Crazy which might be an interesting read (and some other great books for professionals looking to become better communicators overall)
oldbanger said:
To add, I think with all of these situations there are learning opportunities, even if it's to spot the warning signs for next time. However, there may genuinely be points of learning here about managing difficult people, be it clients or staff.
Mark Goulston has a great book called Talking to Crazy which might be an interesting read (and some other great books for professionals looking to become better communicators overall)
I agree, there are some things I will refine and do differently with junior staff going forward. Also, I've probably been too nice to her in the past and let things slip for perhaps a bit too long because she had an exam resit and I didn't want to rock the boat, but the truth is her work was far below an acceptable standard and she had a rude and cheeky attitude which I just don't find acceptable regardless. Mark Goulston has a great book called Talking to Crazy which might be an interesting read (and some other great books for professionals looking to become better communicators overall)
I'll look that up - thank you.
HomesRose said:
I'd really like to think that this isn't an exercise to test me, if it is then I think I'll be reassessing my employment if so because it's been a very unpleasant experience for me and my work are well aware that I have some quite serious issues outside of work, so if I thought this was a test then I'd be really disappointed.
HomesRose,Edited by HomesRose on Monday 29th May 22:52
I'm sure it's not being done deliberately to test you but, bluntly speaking, every day is a test for all staff (below partner?) and the Big 4 are not renowned for the emotional intelligence of their staff (if I might understate the case rather). Your senior colleagues are testing your mettle - that's what they do and the attrition rate demonstrates that - there is a Darwinian approach beyond simply culling the 10% worst performers each year and frankly once you reach the point where you cannot see where your next promotion is coming from, it will be time to move on. I sense you are some way off that point. So I'd simply see your colleague's behaviour as being typical of the daily challenges you all face and part and parcel of what needs to be managed. What your seniors will be looking at is how you respond.
P
HomesRose said:
- I sent an email at 17:35 one night. Accusation - I created an expectation that I wanted her to work out of hours. Reality - I'd been in meetings all afternoon and she left at 17:30 on the dot so I missed her, I also wasn't due in the office until late morning the next day so I sent her a note when I got back to my desk that evening on something we were working on together.
Wow. Planet earth calling space cadet.I don't even see those kind of complaints in a heavily unionised environment... they just say "meh, I'd logged off, any request from management will be dealt with in the fullness of time and with regard to the agreed protocol, etc"
From your posts you come across as in-depth and fair individual. I do think you are over thinking aspects of her/this though. It's over worrying you. She sounds combative and yes a nightmare. Document everything and sleep easy. She's the tail trying to wag the dog. HR need to grow a pair in regards to her. Speak to them. If it was me I'd go through everything in detail and look at releasing her. Mediation, to me sounds like HR aren't being firm.
Lotus Notes said:
... As she's a junior, I can possibly assume that she's a late generation Z or even a Millennial. This part of the working population have rarely received feedback in their early lives and have always been told that they're the best by family and friends. A lot of things haven't been earned and once they realise they are not the best and need to reach a certain level of aptitude, then they haven't got the tools to take the feedback and improve. What do some do? You've seen first hand unfortunately..
This is a very sensible summary of a problem posed by some young workers, especially those from affluent backgrounds. Some (not all) of them have had too much praise, not enough challenge, and have too much unearned self regard.My generation (late Baby Boomers) is to blame for this, as we are the parents of the Millennials.
I've heard of this but isn't it anecdotal? Surely the majority weren't all brought up this way?
In my (big) company all the 20somethings seem to lack any depth of experiences (beyond the obvious travelling gap year) that I had in my 20's. They all seemed to have lived sheltered lives at uni then subdued years that followed.
In my (big) company all the 20somethings seem to lack any depth of experiences (beyond the obvious travelling gap year) that I had in my 20's. They all seemed to have lived sheltered lives at uni then subdued years that followed.
I did not suggest that all Millennials display the characteristics of self absorption noted above, but my professional and daily experience, and the things that are currently happening at elite universities, suggest that the problem is quite widespread, and attributable to a blend of helicopter parenting, over indulgent schooling, and the impact of the net, 24/7 connectivity, and social media.
My daughter is twelve, and therefore a late Millennial. So far, she is not showing signs of turning into Princess Solipsist. I am trying to make sure that the only Princess that she becomes is a version of Princess Leia, who is the World's first and best self-rescuing Princess. OK, maybe without the hairdo.
My daughter is twelve, and therefore a late Millennial. So far, she is not showing signs of turning into Princess Solipsist. I am trying to make sure that the only Princess that she becomes is a version of Princess Leia, who is the World's first and best self-rescuing Princess. OK, maybe without the hairdo.
I'm making sure my son is told 'NO' at every opportunity. No seriously, he has learn earn/reward and budget his pocket money from an early age. Friends of ours seem to drop off their children at numerous evening/weekend clubs without spending anytime with them. It all seems pushy and Overkill.
Breadvan72 said:
I did not suggest that all Millennials display the characteristics of self absorption noted above, but my professional and daily experience, and the things that are currently happening at elite universities, suggest that the problem is quite widespread, and attributable to a blend of helicopter parenting, over indulgent schooling, and the impact of the net, 24/7 connectivity, and social media.
My daughter is twelve, and therefore a late Millennial. So far, she is not showing signs of turning into Princess Solipsist. I am trying to make sure that the only Princess that she becomes is a version of Princess Leia, who is the World's first and best self-rescuing Princess. OK, maybe without the hairdo.
I have also seen this attitude in a number (not all) of this age group, the attitude shown by the employer in this instance is a carbon copy for that I've seen in another global PS firm. There are disruptive and seemingly talent free juniors who have never been told no, or been told that their work is not of the required standard and they are pandered to excessively by remote and/or gutless HR teams.My daughter is twelve, and therefore a late Millennial. So far, she is not showing signs of turning into Princess Solipsist. I am trying to make sure that the only Princess that she becomes is a version of Princess Leia, who is the World's first and best self-rescuing Princess. OK, maybe without the hairdo.
I have also seen the opposite from both employer (hardline taken and employees managed out or terminated in rapid process) and employee (engaged, inquisitive, inventive etc). The issue is from those that raised and 'educated' them into thinking that the sun shone from their nether regions.
My daughter is allowed to be bored. I don't turn her into a perpetual motion machine, always moving from one organised activity to the next. Sometimes we just sit and talk, or veg. Some of my colleagues only see their children when on the mega posh family holiday at the luxury villa in Dalmatia. The helicopter parent - who berates the school for dropping the child a grade - can also be a very neglectful parent.
OP, you have my sympathy, we had similiar issues with a colleague a few years ago, bang on similar to the points you describe
All this talk of big 3 and millennials and generation this and that , we are a small company and this person was old enough to know better, so it can occur in any workplace with any age range. TBH we have had issues like the OP describes with workers in their 20s, 30s, 40s and 50s
Personally I would stop over thinking it and realise this person is on the scale (AKA a nutter) just stand your points firmly and fairly and ignore all the bulls
t
We made the mistake of getting bogged down in all the stty arguments and silly points, took far too much time out of the business and in the end the outcome was the same.
Personally I would talk to someone who has sense (there are a few) in your HR dept, decide on a end goal, familiarise yourself with company procedures and steamroller it all through in a firm way avoiding silly arguments over emails @ 17:35
I used to make the mistake of thinking everyone I worked with was fair and thoughtful like me, then I realised they aren't and some people are just bloody wired wrong and no amount of talking/mediation and understanding will get anywhere, unless the end goal is worth it.
I also bet that the emails regarding work @ 17:35 are just distractions from the core issue that the person cant actually do the work . They end up shouting and screaming over silly issues to distract they cant actually do the work!
I would also avoid as much emails over the issue as possible , especially ones discussing the problem colleague to other colleagues
All this talk of big 3 and millennials and generation this and that , we are a small company and this person was old enough to know better, so it can occur in any workplace with any age range. TBH we have had issues like the OP describes with workers in their 20s, 30s, 40s and 50s
Personally I would stop over thinking it and realise this person is on the scale (AKA a nutter) just stand your points firmly and fairly and ignore all the bulls
tWe made the mistake of getting bogged down in all the s
tty arguments and silly points, took far too much time out of the business and in the end the outcome was the same.Personally I would talk to someone who has sense (there are a few) in your HR dept, decide on a end goal, familiarise yourself with company procedures and steamroller it all through in a firm way avoiding silly arguments over emails @ 17:35
I used to make the mistake of thinking everyone I worked with was fair and thoughtful like me, then I realised they aren't and some people are just bloody wired wrong and no amount of talking/mediation and understanding will get anywhere, unless the end goal is worth it.
I also bet that the emails regarding work @ 17:35 are just distractions from the core issue that the person cant actually do the work . They end up shouting and screaming over silly issues to distract they cant actually do the work!
I would also avoid as much emails over the issue as possible , especially ones discussing the problem colleague to other colleagues
Thanks for all the replies, I think I should rename this "the Millenials thread" lol.
It is possible I'm getting somewhat bogged down in this. We're understaffed, I'm pushing for promotion and I have this person constantly nipping at me and complaining about complete and utter rubbish.
A potentially naive part of me thought that this person would have been sacked months ago but here we are, now in June and it continues. I think I'm just weary now and want to see the back of her, but I don't know when the end will be in sight.
Also definitely no emails to colleagues about this - every discussion between us is offline.
It is possible I'm getting somewhat bogged down in this. We're understaffed, I'm pushing for promotion and I have this person constantly nipping at me and complaining about complete and utter rubbish.
A potentially naive part of me thought that this person would have been sacked months ago but here we are, now in June and it continues. I think I'm just weary now and want to see the back of her, but I don't know when the end will be in sight.
Also definitely no emails to colleagues about this - every discussion between us is offline.
That may be an error. If the idiot child becomes litigious, then a good email record of fair deliberations may be helpful to the company. If I was counsel for the idiot child at a tribunal (and NB Bank of Pushy Parents Ltd may fund a case), I could and would make much of gaps and silences in the email record.
"Ms X, you say that you discussed Y at a meeting on 10th June. Can you explain why there is no record of that meeting in any diary, email, memorandum or other document?"
"Mr B, you say that you and other members of the management team had concerns about my client's performance since January. Can you explain why those concerns are nowhere recorded in any of the documents before this tribunal?"
And so on...
"Ms X, you say that you discussed Y at a meeting on 10th June. Can you explain why there is no record of that meeting in any diary, email, memorandum or other document?"
"Mr B, you say that you and other members of the management team had concerns about my client's performance since January. Can you explain why those concerns are nowhere recorded in any of the documents before this tribunal?"
And so on...
Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 1st June 10:30
Breadvan72 said:
That may be an error. If the idiot child becomes litigious, then a good email record of fair deliberations may be helpful to the company. If I was counsel for the idiot child at a tribunal (and NB Bank of Pushy Parents Ltd may fund a case), I could and would make much of gaps and silences in the email record.
Ah apologies, to clarify, any chit chat discussions are off record and anything official has been done via email or documented meetings. Gassing Station | Jobs & Employment Matters | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff