Career change to law, realistic?
Discussion
Through school I always wanted to become a solicitor or barrister. I started A levels including Law, but for circumstancial family reasons I dropped out.
I've since had a successful career for the last 7 years In manufacturing, but I still wish I'd have made a bit more of my working life and did something where I have to engage the brain, what I do now Is quite dull and repetitive, but it pays well.
If I do a law degree with the OU, try and get some work experience under my belt, I get the feeling I may still struggle to get a training contract to train as a solicitor afterwards. I suppose I may have the USP of having some life experience vs fresh uni graduates but that's about it.
I've heard training contracts are very competitive, and some graduates find themselves unable to become a fully fledged solicitor due to not being able to secure a trainee job afterwards.
Does anyone have any insight in to this at all?
If not I will have to find something else to aspire to, as I definitely want a career change, but obviously the job prospects have to be realistic. I'm told accountancy is the way to go but I've always been more comfortable reading, writing and talking than I have using numbers!
Current earning potential is £30-45,000, so I'd like to eventually be back to the same level with scope to earn more with progression and experience.
Thanks in advance
Phil
I've since had a successful career for the last 7 years In manufacturing, but I still wish I'd have made a bit more of my working life and did something where I have to engage the brain, what I do now Is quite dull and repetitive, but it pays well.
If I do a law degree with the OU, try and get some work experience under my belt, I get the feeling I may still struggle to get a training contract to train as a solicitor afterwards. I suppose I may have the USP of having some life experience vs fresh uni graduates but that's about it.
I've heard training contracts are very competitive, and some graduates find themselves unable to become a fully fledged solicitor due to not being able to secure a trainee job afterwards.
Does anyone have any insight in to this at all?
If not I will have to find something else to aspire to, as I definitely want a career change, but obviously the job prospects have to be realistic. I'm told accountancy is the way to go but I've always been more comfortable reading, writing and talking than I have using numbers!
Current earning potential is £30-45,000, so I'd like to eventually be back to the same level with scope to earn more with progression and experience.
Thanks in advance
Phil
Obtaining a training contract is very competitive and demand is outstripping supply by some considerable margin which has made it a very tough environment for graduates. However it has put law firms in a position to exploit graduates with lots of false promises of training contracts if they work at the firm for X a amount of time doing admin jobs and then suddenly they'll say there's no funding and they'll lure someone else with false promises.
Your earning potential will depend on what field of law you go in, geographical location and size of firm. If you choose a lucrative sector in London for a big firm there's £££ to be made. If you end up in high street firm up North doing Family Law you will be hard pressed to match anywhere near what you're currently on.
I think it comes down to this, if it's something you've always wanted to do and not doing it will mean in 10 years time you'll regret it and always think 'what if' - go for it. But just be aware it is incredibly tough and there's no guarantees.
Re Accounting. It's true, it does seem to be more promising field. I have 4 friends who are accountants in the making and the opportunities / positions out there are plentiful. They are doing there accounting exams while working and their companies are paying for them. Once qualified they're pretty much walking in to 35-40k jobs straight away and have recruiters on the phone to them headhunting and these are just 25 year old guys who haven't done anything above and beyond the norm.
Your earning potential will depend on what field of law you go in, geographical location and size of firm. If you choose a lucrative sector in London for a big firm there's £££ to be made. If you end up in high street firm up North doing Family Law you will be hard pressed to match anywhere near what you're currently on.
I think it comes down to this, if it's something you've always wanted to do and not doing it will mean in 10 years time you'll regret it and always think 'what if' - go for it. But just be aware it is incredibly tough and there's no guarantees.
Re Accounting. It's true, it does seem to be more promising field. I have 4 friends who are accountants in the making and the opportunities / positions out there are plentiful. They are doing there accounting exams while working and their companies are paying for them. Once qualified they're pretty much walking in to 35-40k jobs straight away and have recruiters on the phone to them headhunting and these are just 25 year old guys who haven't done anything above and beyond the norm.
TopGear7 said:
Obtaining a training contract is very competitive and demand is outstripping supply by some considerable margin which has made it a very tough environment for graduates. However it has put law firms in a position to exploit graduates with lots of false promises of training contracts if they work at the firm for X a amount of time doing admin jobs and then suddenly they'll say there's no funding and they'll lure someone else with false promises.
Your earning potential will depend on what field of law you go in, geographical location and size of firm. If you choose a lucrative sector in London for a big firm there's £££ to be made. If you end up in high street firm up North doing Family Law you will be hard pressed to match anywhere near what you're currently on.
I think it comes down to this, if it's something you've always wanted to do and not doing it will mean in 10 years time you'll regret it and always think 'what if' - go for it. But just be aware it is incredibly tough and there's no guarantees.
Re Accounting. It's true, it does seem to be more promising field. I have 4 friends who are accountants in the making and the opportunities / positions out there are plentiful. They are doing there accounting exams while working and their companies are paying for them. Once qualified they're pretty much walking in to 35-40k jobs straight away and have recruiters on the phone to them headhunting and these are just 25 year old guys who haven't done anything above and beyond the norm.
It seems like what I've been told matches up with what you've said, super competitive and smaller potential for a decent salary, which sadly is pretty much as important to me as job satisfaction. Your earning potential will depend on what field of law you go in, geographical location and size of firm. If you choose a lucrative sector in London for a big firm there's £££ to be made. If you end up in high street firm up North doing Family Law you will be hard pressed to match anywhere near what you're currently on.
I think it comes down to this, if it's something you've always wanted to do and not doing it will mean in 10 years time you'll regret it and always think 'what if' - go for it. But just be aware it is incredibly tough and there's no guarantees.
Re Accounting. It's true, it does seem to be more promising field. I have 4 friends who are accountants in the making and the opportunities / positions out there are plentiful. They are doing there accounting exams while working and their companies are paying for them. Once qualified they're pretty much walking in to 35-40k jobs straight away and have recruiters on the phone to them headhunting and these are just 25 year old guys who haven't done anything above and beyond the norm.
I won't be devastated if I don't pursue this, it's more a case of needing a career change and that was naturally what I'd investigate first as I started a Law at A level and it's what I always saw myself doing I suppose.
I've also heard this about accountancy. My brother in law got his chartered accreditation and became a management accountant on 35k, then took a move after two years to be a junior financial controller on similar money, and is now on 60. The business side of accountancy interests me a lot more than the tax and audit side, but I'm still not entirely convinced it would be the right move for me personally.
98elise said:
It always surprises me how little a lawyer earns (at least initially). It's one of those jobs you expect to pay well from the off.
I work in IT and you can earn a good wage without years of training.
I did look in to working in IT at great length when I was a bit younger. I sought some 'professional' careers advice on it from connexions because I didn't know anyone in IT. They said either do computing/computer science at uni and find a grad trainee job in a specific field, or do some smaller qualifications and get a job on a support desk and work up. I work in IT and you can earn a good wage without years of training.
Having browsed the IT career threads on here out of curiosity, it seems like there are some conflicting opinions. Some people say they can't break out of the low down poorly paid jobs, some say you need lots of qualifications, others don't. It leaves me a bit confused really. But it's definitely something I would enjoy learning, I was always messing about fixing the household computers when I was a kid but all that knowledge has drained away with time as I don't have to use a PC for work, so this would be starting very much from scratch!
98elise said:
It always surprises me how little a lawyer earns (at least initially). It's one of those jobs you expect to pay well from the off.
I work in IT and you can earn a good wage without years of training.
Only if you have the skills that happen to be in demand at the time. I know people who have been in the business for decades, can't get into using the in demand skills however many courses they do because employers want commercial experience, so have been on £40k for the last 15 years. I work in IT and you can earn a good wage without years of training.
I am a member of a "Magic Circle" Barristers' Chambers. I am sorry to bring bad news, but the route into the sector of legal practice that brings high levels of intellectual stimulation, brainy and interesting colleagues, high profile clients, and six figure incomes usually involves getting a first or a high 2.1 at a Russell Group university (in any rigorous academic subject, law degree not essential), often followed by postgraduate study in the UK, US, or Europe. Practising law at high street law firm or general common law barrister level can be rather humdrum, and provides little financial reward. Candidates who have had previous careers can be of interest to big firms and swanky chambers (we have several such people in my chambers, with backgrounds as diverse as journalist, night club bouncer, and investment banker), but an OU degree might not cut it. Taking A Level law was, frankly, a waste of an A level, and the very superficial study undertaken at that stage is of no value whatsoever to the real life practice of law. Recruiters would rather that you had a good general education.
If you are going to compete at the top level, you will have to have something to make you stand out from the ranks of very highly qualified candidates in their early to mid twenties. If you can only realistically aim for the lower or mid level of the legal profession, the hassle and cost and risk may not be worth the bother.
So, go for it, but only if you are confident that you can compete with twenty five year olds who have Prize Fellowships of All Souls and have done Kennedy Scholarships at Harvard after getting Oxbridge or London firsts. That, I am afraid, is the reality of the game.
If you are going to compete at the top level, you will have to have something to make you stand out from the ranks of very highly qualified candidates in their early to mid twenties. If you can only realistically aim for the lower or mid level of the legal profession, the hassle and cost and risk may not be worth the bother.
So, go for it, but only if you are confident that you can compete with twenty five year olds who have Prize Fellowships of All Souls and have done Kennedy Scholarships at Harvard after getting Oxbridge or London firsts. That, I am afraid, is the reality of the game.
Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 29th July 14:23
I add that to get a job in a major international law firm is not easy, but you may not have to have the full Rhodes/Kennedy/Fulbright kaboodle to get in. Having said that, once in you have signed a Faustian pact. The firm owns you pretty much 24/7. You get paid a lot, but have little free time and are placed under enormous pressure to bill, bill, bill. Even at partner level, and it takes many years to get there, the pressure is heavy. I am not saying don't do it, but be aware of what you are getting into.
One last note, if you are in any doubt as to which you wish to be - solicitor or barrister, then be a solicitor. Being a barrister is all about risk, and if you are even slightly uncertain about that, take the less risky option. Most barristers pondered being a solicitor for something between zero and 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 pico-seconds, so if you even have to ask the question "solicitor or barrister?", the answer is solicitor.
One last note, if you are in any doubt as to which you wish to be - solicitor or barrister, then be a solicitor. Being a barrister is all about risk, and if you are even slightly uncertain about that, take the less risky option. Most barristers pondered being a solicitor for something between zero and 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 pico-seconds, so if you even have to ask the question "solicitor or barrister?", the answer is solicitor.
Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 29th July 13:48
Having spent 10 years in web development I'm also looking at switching careers and law has piqued my interest. Probably because my partner is a solicitor!
From what I understand from her going through absolute hell (finding training contracts etc) is that if your degree is from a red brick university then you're already ahead of most applicants. It's a bit easier, but not certain, that you'll then progress.
She's also said though that there have been paralegals (think that's the name) who go in to firms and learn on the job. But the pay with this is poor, and again no certainty of getting anywhere.
I've seen her go to work at 7am and not come home until 10pm. Work comes home, she gets stressed. Diet goes out the window, arguments escalate, when she wants a break she wants to spend time with me when I'm unable to accomodate due to having to work a bit extra. I don't think law gives a good work life balance either, which is what I'm after, so for me law is on the back burner.
So my quest continues, but I hope this helps a little bit.
From what I understand from her going through absolute hell (finding training contracts etc) is that if your degree is from a red brick university then you're already ahead of most applicants. It's a bit easier, but not certain, that you'll then progress.
She's also said though that there have been paralegals (think that's the name) who go in to firms and learn on the job. But the pay with this is poor, and again no certainty of getting anywhere.
I've seen her go to work at 7am and not come home until 10pm. Work comes home, she gets stressed. Diet goes out the window, arguments escalate, when she wants a break she wants to spend time with me when I'm unable to accomodate due to having to work a bit extra. I don't think law gives a good work life balance either, which is what I'm after, so for me law is on the back burner.
So my quest continues, but I hope this helps a little bit.
VRSphil said:
Through school I always wanted to become a solicitor or barrister. I started A levels including Law, but for circumstancial family reasons I dropped out.
I've since had a successful career for the last 7 years In manufacturing, but I still wish I'd have made a bit more of my working life and did something where I have to engage the brain, what I do now Is quite dull and repetitive, but it pays well.
If I do a law degree with the OU, try and get some work experience under my belt, I get the feeling I may still struggle to get a training contract to train as a solicitor afterwards. I suppose I may have the USP of having some life experience vs fresh uni graduates but that's about it.
I've heard training contracts are very competitive, and some graduates find themselves unable to become a fully fledged solicitor due to not being able to secure a trainee job afterwards.
Does anyone have any insight in to this at all?
If not I will have to find something else to aspire to, as I definitely want a career change, but obviously the job prospects have to be realistic. I'm told accountancy is the way to go but I've always been more comfortable reading, writing and talking than I have using numbers!
Current earning potential is £30-45,000, so I'd like to eventually be back to the same level with scope to earn more with progression and experience.
Thanks in advance
Phil
One of my children would be a good solicitor. But I use a lot of solicitors and none of them work in conditions I'd want for my child. The one I use most is a senior partner of a well-respected firm, he is hugely stressed, I can usually get hold of him before 7am and after 9pm and he works from a crappy 1970s office which makes the local job centre look glamorous.I've since had a successful career for the last 7 years In manufacturing, but I still wish I'd have made a bit more of my working life and did something where I have to engage the brain, what I do now Is quite dull and repetitive, but it pays well.
If I do a law degree with the OU, try and get some work experience under my belt, I get the feeling I may still struggle to get a training contract to train as a solicitor afterwards. I suppose I may have the USP of having some life experience vs fresh uni graduates but that's about it.
I've heard training contracts are very competitive, and some graduates find themselves unable to become a fully fledged solicitor due to not being able to secure a trainee job afterwards.
Does anyone have any insight in to this at all?
If not I will have to find something else to aspire to, as I definitely want a career change, but obviously the job prospects have to be realistic. I'm told accountancy is the way to go but I've always been more comfortable reading, writing and talking than I have using numbers!
Current earning potential is £30-45,000, so I'd like to eventually be back to the same level with scope to earn more with progression and experience.
Thanks in advance
Phil
TopGear7 said:
Your earning potential will depend on what field of law you go in, geographical location and size of firm. If you choose a lucrative sector in London for a big firm there's £££ to be made. If you end up in high street firm up North doing Family Law you will be hard pressed to match anywhere near what you're currently on.
Realistically, a degree from the OU as a late starter is unlikely to lead to a TC with a big London firm. And, sadly, if you are "fortunate" enough to land a TC with a regional firm, its hard then to make the transition to a large London firm from the regions... so you often tend to find the big firms will be staffed by top grads who have trained in a City firm, even if they then move among them for progression. Yes, TC's are in very high demand. I would say having a bit of life and outside experience would assist in the competition for a TC, but its still a tall order.
You may want to look at the ILEX route to qualify first as a legal executive and then "top up" to qualify as a solicitor. Very underused (IMO) route to qualifying without the 1 in 10 training contract lottery. Also vastly cheaper as a qualification useful part way too. More like the accountancy qualifications, in fact.
May I just say that if you can make it into a decent quality barristers' chambers then life at the Bar is fun. You have autonomy and control over your life, the work is stimulating, and you tend to have colleagues who are clever and have deep hinterlands beyond the arid wastes of the law. The pay is good. There is the ever present risk of falling out of fashion with solicitors and being unemployed, and your business is personal and can never be sold; but as professional service jobs go it ain't half bad IF but ONLY IF you can get into a set of chambers that is at least at Championship Level if not Premiership. Barristering in the lower leagues is rubbish.
98elise said:
It always surprises me how little a lawyer earns (at least initially). It's one of those jobs you expect to pay well from the off.
I work in IT and you can earn a good wage without years of training.
I don't disagree but there is plenty of on the job training required to keep up to date, although probably the same in many careers. I work in IT, I'm 41 and could retire tomorrow although partly because I have been reasonably sensible with money over the years.I work in IT and you can earn a good wage without years of training.
For perspective though, a family member is a lawyer and his annual income has an extra zero at the end compared to mine. If I had my time again I think it is a route I would choose.
UpTheIron said:
For perspective though, a family member is a lawyer and his annual income has an extra zero at the end compared to mine. If I had my time again I think it is a route I would choose.
http://www.payscale.com/research/UK/Job=Solicitor/...
From being inside the industry I would say that is a true reflection. Take aside all the London magic circle firms and the 0.1% that work there on £100k starting salaries. Picture instead many more working in a regional city in family or criminal law earnings £25k (hence the average being adjusted to reflect the two extremes).
For the constant stress and s
t you are subjected to, its just not worth it IMO. There are also a vast amount of glass ceilings that don't dissipate as the years go on as they often do in other careers. I am fortunate in breaking away from traditional practice and although not at the bar, I operate in a similar capacity as described by Breadvan. It allows me to be self-employed and work when and, more importantly, wherever I wish so I spend big chunks of time in sunny climes. The idea of ever returning though to the 40+ hours a week chargeable time units and the crap that comes with private practice would fill me with dread. I'd rather pack shelves in Tesco.
Breadvan72 said:
I am a member of a "Magic Circle" Barristers' Chambers. I am sorry to bring bad news, but the route into the sector of legal practice that brings high levels of intellectual stimulation, brainy and interesting colleagues, high profile clients, and six figure incomes usually involves getting a first or a high 2.1 at a Russell Group university (in any rigorous academic subject, law degree not essential), often followed by postgraduate study in the UK, US, or Europe. Practising law at high street law firm or general common law barrister level can be rather humdrum, and provides little financial reward. Candidates who have had previous careers can be of interest to big firms and swanky chambers (we have several such people in my chambers, with backgrounds as diverse as journalist, night club bouncer, and investment banker), but an OU degree might not cut it. Taking A Level law was, frankly, a waste of an A level, and the very superficial study undertaken at that stage is of no value whatsoever to the real life practice of law. Recruiters would rather that you had a good general education.
If you are going to compete at the top level, you will have to have something to make you stand out from the ranks of very highly qualified candidates in their early to mid twenties. If you can only realistically aim for the lower or mid level of the legal profession, the hassle and cost and risk may not be worth the bother.
So, go for it, but only if you are confident that you can compete with twenty five year olds who have Prize Fellowships of All Souls and have done Kennedy Scholarships at Harvard after getting Oxbridge or London firsts. That, I am afraid, is the reality of the game.
Bit of a hijack, sorry.If you are going to compete at the top level, you will have to have something to make you stand out from the ranks of very highly qualified candidates in their early to mid twenties. If you can only realistically aim for the lower or mid level of the legal profession, the hassle and cost and risk may not be worth the bother.
So, go for it, but only if you are confident that you can compete with twenty five year olds who have Prize Fellowships of All Souls and have done Kennedy Scholarships at Harvard after getting Oxbridge or London firsts. That, I am afraid, is the reality of the game.
BV- is this equally true for a career change to become a patent attorney? I work in the physical sciences, have a PhD and am good at understanding complex concepts. Such a switch would appeal in the future; I'm early 30s and often feel the need for a new challenge.
Shnozz said:
A cursory google indicates the average solicitor in the UK earns £35k.
http://www.payscale.com/research/UK/Job=Solicitor/...
From being inside the industry I would say that is a true reflection. Take aside all the London magic circle firms and the 0.1% that work there on £100k starting salaries. Picture instead many more working in a regional city in family or criminal law earnings £25k (hence the average being adjusted to reflect the two extremes).
For the constant stress and st you are subjected to, its just not worth it IMO. There are also a vast amount of glass ceilings that don't dissipate as the years go on as they often do in other careers.
I am fortunate in breaking away from traditional practice and although not at the bar, I operate in a similar capacity as described by Breadvan. It allows me to be self-employed and work when and, more importantly, wherever I wish so I spend big chunks of time in sunny climes. The idea of ever returning though to the 40+ hours a week chargeable time units and the crap that comes with private practice would fill me with dread. I'd rather pack shelves in Tesco.
All very true. I owned and managed a legal recruitment agency for over 20 years. I would say that for the money 'High Street' lawyers earn it just isn't worth the time and effort to qualify.http://www.payscale.com/research/UK/Job=Solicitor/...
From being inside the industry I would say that is a true reflection. Take aside all the London magic circle firms and the 0.1% that work there on £100k starting salaries. Picture instead many more working in a regional city in family or criminal law earnings £25k (hence the average being adjusted to reflect the two extremes).
For the constant stress and s
t you are subjected to, its just not worth it IMO. There are also a vast amount of glass ceilings that don't dissipate as the years go on as they often do in other careers. I am fortunate in breaking away from traditional practice and although not at the bar, I operate in a similar capacity as described by Breadvan. It allows me to be self-employed and work when and, more importantly, wherever I wish so I spend big chunks of time in sunny climes. The idea of ever returning though to the 40+ hours a week chargeable time units and the crap that comes with private practice would fill me with dread. I'd rather pack shelves in Tesco.
StuTheGrouch said:
Breadvan72 said:
I am a member of a "Magic Circle" Barristers' Chambers. I am sorry to bring bad news, but the route into the sector of legal practice that brings high levels of intellectual stimulation, brainy and interesting colleagues, high profile clients, and six figure incomes usually involves getting a first or a high 2.1 at a Russell Group university (in any rigorous academic subject, law degree not essential), often followed by postgraduate study in the UK, US, or Europe. Practising law at high street law firm or general common law barrister level can be rather humdrum, and provides little financial reward. Candidates who have had previous careers can be of interest to big firms and swanky chambers (we have several such people in my chambers, with backgrounds as diverse as journalist, night club bouncer, and investment banker), but an OU degree might not cut it. Taking A Level law was, frankly, a waste of an A level, and the very superficial study undertaken at that stage is of no value whatsoever to the real life practice of law. Recruiters would rather that you had a good general education.
If you are going to compete at the top level, you will have to have something to make you stand out from the ranks of very highly qualified candidates in their early to mid twenties. If you can only realistically aim for the lower or mid level of the legal profession, the hassle and cost and risk may not be worth the bother.
So, go for it, but only if you are confident that you can compete with twenty five year olds who have Prize Fellowships of All Souls and have done Kennedy Scholarships at Harvard after getting Oxbridge or London firsts. That, I am afraid, is the reality of the game.
Bit of a hijack, sorry.If you are going to compete at the top level, you will have to have something to make you stand out from the ranks of very highly qualified candidates in their early to mid twenties. If you can only realistically aim for the lower or mid level of the legal profession, the hassle and cost and risk may not be worth the bother.
So, go for it, but only if you are confident that you can compete with twenty five year olds who have Prize Fellowships of All Souls and have done Kennedy Scholarships at Harvard after getting Oxbridge or London firsts. That, I am afraid, is the reality of the game.
BV- is this equally true for a career change to become a patent attorney? I work in the physical sciences, have a PhD and am good at understanding complex concepts. Such a switch would appeal in the future; I'm early 30s and often feel the need for a new challenge.
PM me your CV and I will ask an old college friend who is a partner in a Patent Attorney firm with offices nationally (he is in Newcastle but does a lot of work in Berlin). NB It is good to have French or German for the Euro work. The Euro work will continue even after Brexit (if - and it is a big if - the UK still has an economy worth a damn after Brexit), because the European patent system is not EU-based but follows a separate Treaty. My mate got a good Oxford 2.1* in Physics but did not do a doctorate.
* Strictly speaking my friend got a Second, because in the 1980s Oxford did not formally divide the second class, but informally it did - the College tutors would tell the candidate after Exam Schools whether the Second was high, medium or low. They did (and still do) the same for a First, although there the question is whether your First is an ordinary First or a high one. Possession of a Super-First only signifies in academia and Magic Circle places, as in most contexts a First is a First is a First.
* Strictly speaking my friend got a Second, because in the 1980s Oxford did not formally divide the second class, but informally it did - the College tutors would tell the candidate after Exam Schools whether the Second was high, medium or low. They did (and still do) the same for a First, although there the question is whether your First is an ordinary First or a high one. Possession of a Super-First only signifies in academia and Magic Circle places, as in most contexts a First is a First is a First.
Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 17th August 15:06
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