Jump ship, or stay?
Discussion
Tall_Paul said:
Thanks for the replies - it would be a lot simpler if I could say that I would be able to find something at a couple of grand a year more. However looking at roles that are out there, a very good percentage are paying the same (or less) that what I'm currently on. I'm currently "1st line support" - I say that however the lines are not defined here, and my next role would effectively be 2nd line support.
Why would it effectively be 2nd line support? when looking for jobs you need to think about your skill set and its transferability. You dont have to to spend your whole life in IT support and if you are thinking that you are limiting yourself stretch wise and career wise.Tall_Paul said:
to be clear, truthfully the ONLY reason I'm even thinking about moving is money.
This tells me you would not be happy to be where you are in 12 months time on the same money (effectively less due to your personal inflation rate)Tall_Paul said:
- looking at it purely from a monetary perspective, would you move to a new role with an unknown new company, with zero extra money, doing the 2nd line support role (involving a lot more complexity and responsibility than what I'm doing now)
If its zero extra money and that truly is your only motivation then it is the wrong job but that doesnt mean you should stay where you are.Tall_Paul said:
Or - give it another year in my current role, where yes - I could be in the same situation I am now (i.e. on the same money) but I would be no worse off in terms of job satisfaction? But, there would be a high probability that I could be another £5-7k better off?
I think you would be annoyed to be on the same money this time next year so your job satisfaction would automatically be less. Is the "high probability" the jam tomorrow promotion? if it is then I suggest its not high probability and more like betting your career on a 500/1 3 legged horse. Dont kid yourself.Tall_Paul said:
That may smack as getting too comfy, and a lot of you have said "4 years in the same job?!!!?? That's faaaar too long" - however at my place 4 years is nothing, people join and they stay, and for good reason. If I moved on to a role doing more, with more stress, worse colleagues, for a worse company, for the same money - I'm be pretty pissed off.
Sounds like people stay because its easy and comfortable. The death of a career if you let it.Tall_Paul said:
Obviously I can look for something decent with a decent pay rise in the meantime, but honestly I don't see me being able to find a role that will pay another 2-3k and as it will be the next level up from what I'm currently doing I'll be up against more experienced candidates.
So, further thoughts?
Tough love time.... we wouldnt be having this thread if there wasnt an issue with where you are now and this whole response comes across as an attempt to justify staying where you are. Thats fine if thats REALLY what you want to do. Experience tells me, however, that people in your position usually dont want that but have the following issues -So, further thoughts?
A fear of change
A blinkered view as to where their career should go next - same job but bigger syndrome
Inability to identify their key skill set and what other jobs, roles and career paths that may be applicable to
A requirement to be able to fulfil all of the requirements of a role before applying for it
Those that do well in their careers have the following attributes -
Relish change
Are able to identify parallel career paths and have the ability to jump from one ladder to another
Know their skill set and how it can be combined in a different pattern to meet a different career path
Take a chance, throw in an application they can do 50% and see what happens
My advice to you... Take a long hard look at yourself, identify your key skills (say top 20) and then think about what careers they would be applicable to. Get the CV up to date, make a brilliant Linkedin profile, flag yourself on linkedin as open to opportunities and widen your catchment area within which you are willing to work geographically. Get your flash new CV on Indeed, Total Jobs and Monster amongst others and every two week go back to those boards, remove the CV and then re-add it as v1.1 v1.11 etc as each change to your profile puts you back to the top of the recruiters pile.
Good luck
craigjm said:
Tall_Paul said:
Thanks for the replies - it would be a lot simpler if I could say that I would be able to find something at a couple of grand a year more. However looking at roles that are out there, a very good percentage are paying the same (or less) that what I'm currently on. I'm currently "1st line support" - I say that however the lines are not defined here, and my next role would effectively be 2nd line support.
Why would it effectively be 2nd line support? when looking for jobs you need to think about your skill set and its transferability. You dont have to to spend your whole life in IT support and if you are thinking that you are limiting yourself stretch wise and career wise.Have a look at some of the big IT consultancy orgs. Your skills will transfer into them with ease, and you'll be earning a lot more than 20 grand, with real progression prospects.
craigjm said:
A fear of change
A blinkered view as to where their career should go next - same job but bigger syndrome
Inability to identify their key skill set and what other jobs, roles and career paths that may be applicable to
A requirement to be able to fulfil all of the requirements of a role before applying for it
Agree with this.A blinkered view as to where their career should go next - same job but bigger syndrome
Inability to identify their key skill set and what other jobs, roles and career paths that may be applicable to
A requirement to be able to fulfil all of the requirements of a role before applying for it
I am getting close to this position however it's time for change. I've been with my current company for 4 years too, but it's slightly mitigated by doing two different roles (2 years for one and now 2 years for my current one).
The only caveat for me is that I am very happy where I am and my team are brilliant, but there is zero progression for me and I'm starting to stagnate. I've got some roles I'm motivated to go for next which my company does in other departments. I've been trying to get mentored by one of the managers so I can apply for roles with a good knowledge of the area's or shift into a new area under the same company, however I've been getting the same as you, initial keen-ness followed up with non-committal.
It's now to the point where I've got to leave if I want to increase my salary and add to my skill set, my vote is go for it. Your next job might be a miss (my first role in this company was for me), but then you'll always gain more skills/experience to take to your next role.
4 years in 1st line support is way too long.
I've just retired from my IT director role where we had 1st line guys moving on to 25k+ roles in manchester after 12 months.
South East would be higher.
4 years in 1st line if I was reviewing your cv, would suggest no ambition or worse still, no ability to develop.
If you want a career as opposed to a job you need to move.
If you stay then accept you'll effectively be saying you dont want a career.
Maybe harsh but that's how I would read it.
I've just retired from my IT director role where we had 1st line guys moving on to 25k+ roles in manchester after 12 months.
South East would be higher.
4 years in 1st line if I was reviewing your cv, would suggest no ambition or worse still, no ability to develop.
If you want a career as opposed to a job you need to move.
If you stay then accept you'll effectively be saying you dont want a career.
Maybe harsh but that's how I would read it.
keirik said:
4 years in 1st line support is way too long.
I've just retired from my IT director role where we had 1st line guys moving on to 25k+ roles in manchester after 12 months.
South East would be higher.
4 years in 1st line if I was reviewing your cv, would suggest no ambition or worse still, no ability to develop.
If you want a career as opposed to a job you need to move.
If you stay then accept you'll effectively be saying you dont want a career.
Maybe harsh but that's how I would read it.
Similarly at my previous company, the more experienced (2+ years) 1st line support guys where on £24-£26k in Salford.I've just retired from my IT director role where we had 1st line guys moving on to 25k+ roles in manchester after 12 months.
South East would be higher.
4 years in 1st line if I was reviewing your cv, would suggest no ambition or worse still, no ability to develop.
If you want a career as opposed to a job you need to move.
If you stay then accept you'll effectively be saying you dont want a career.
Maybe harsh but that's how I would read it.
@OP Surely the natural progression is 2nd/3rd line externally? You essentially have most of the required skills for 2nd line, you just don’t seem to have the confidence to make the move.
Don’t forget the bulk of what’s on the job spec is ‘desired’/nice to have skills, they wouldn’t expect you to tick every box. I’ve found that so long as you have an interest and a ‘can do’ attitude you can walk in to jobs with relative ease (within reason of course).
As others have said, the sweet spot for climbing the promotion ladder is to jump ship every 2 to 4 years. If you're in that window and ambitious, then you have to play the game.
Ride the honeymoon period for a year, pick up a bit more knowledge / skills for a year, and then charm some other folks about how you're a committed team member and the 20% paylift and new egomaniac title have absolutely nothing to do with it.
Ride the honeymoon period for a year, pick up a bit more knowledge / skills for a year, and then charm some other folks about how you're a committed team member and the 20% paylift and new egomaniac title have absolutely nothing to do with it.
So, as an update to this - I did take on board everyone's thoughts - and kept my eye out for something decent to pop up.
Short story - I start my new job in exactly 4 weeks
Found something with a 5 mile round trip commute vs the 35 miles I'm currently doing, a bit more money but not masses - however I'll have a pay review after 6 months (yes, got it all in writing!). A very similar company and they seem to be expanding pretty fast as they wanted 2x my new role and have just taken on 2x apprentices too. I'll miss the guys I work with, but I think my leaving has just 'unsettled the ship' somewhat and I can honestly see 1 or 2 more people leaving in the next few months.
Overall I'm happy - I get a bit more money, a lot more experience, a far better commute and I'm finally seeing some movement after being stuck in a rut basically doing the same thing for the past couple of years.
In the last 6 months (and in fact, since working here) I've applied for 2 jobs, had 2 interviews and got offered 1 of the jobs, so i'm happy with that.
Short story - I start my new job in exactly 4 weeks
Found something with a 5 mile round trip commute vs the 35 miles I'm currently doing, a bit more money but not masses - however I'll have a pay review after 6 months (yes, got it all in writing!). A very similar company and they seem to be expanding pretty fast as they wanted 2x my new role and have just taken on 2x apprentices too. I'll miss the guys I work with, but I think my leaving has just 'unsettled the ship' somewhat and I can honestly see 1 or 2 more people leaving in the next few months.
Overall I'm happy - I get a bit more money, a lot more experience, a far better commute and I'm finally seeing some movement after being stuck in a rut basically doing the same thing for the past couple of years.
In the last 6 months (and in fact, since working here) I've applied for 2 jobs, had 2 interviews and got offered 1 of the jobs, so i'm happy with that.
OP, have you got the mineral's?
I have recently finished a contract and some of the people there had been there 40, 30, 20 years. They had become institutionalized. They were not particularly good at their roles just simply using their knowledge and previously gained skills to survive. When redundancy is announced every 18mths the same people are frightened of the big bad world because they know that there skills will be questioned and possibly not worth a great deal.
The question remains OP, do you want to have a dynamic set of skills that can be moved from company to company or do you want to locked into a single place for the rest of your days?
I have recently finished a contract and some of the people there had been there 40, 30, 20 years. They had become institutionalized. They were not particularly good at their roles just simply using their knowledge and previously gained skills to survive. When redundancy is announced every 18mths the same people are frightened of the big bad world because they know that there skills will be questioned and possibly not worth a great deal.
The question remains OP, do you want to have a dynamic set of skills that can be moved from company to company or do you want to locked into a single place for the rest of your days?
AndStilliRise said:
OP, have you got the mineral's?
I have recently finished a contract and some of the people there had been there 40, 30, 20 years. They had become institutionalized. They were not particularly good at their roles just simply using their knowledge and previously gained skills to survive. When redundancy is announced every 18mths the same people are frightened of the big bad world because they know that there skills will be questioned and possibly not worth a great deal.
The question remains OP, do you want to have a dynamic set of skills that can be moved from company to company or do you want to locked into a single place for the rest of your days?
The question doesn’t remain at all if you read his most recent post!!I have recently finished a contract and some of the people there had been there 40, 30, 20 years. They had become institutionalized. They were not particularly good at their roles just simply using their knowledge and previously gained skills to survive. When redundancy is announced every 18mths the same people are frightened of the big bad world because they know that there skills will be questioned and possibly not worth a great deal.
The question remains OP, do you want to have a dynamic set of skills that can be moved from company to company or do you want to locked into a single place for the rest of your days?
Congrats OP, great news.
mcg_ said:
AndStilliRise said:
OP, have you got the mineral's?
I have recently finished a contract and some of the people there had been there 40, 30, 20 years. They had become institutionalized. They were not particularly good at their roles just simply using their knowledge and previously gained skills to survive. When redundancy is announced every 18mths the same people are frightened of the big bad world because they know that there skills will be questioned and possibly not worth a great deal.
The question remains OP, do you want to have a dynamic set of skills that can be moved from company to company or do you want to locked into a single place for the rest of your days?
The question doesn’t remain at all if you read his most recent post!!I have recently finished a contract and some of the people there had been there 40, 30, 20 years. They had become institutionalized. They were not particularly good at their roles just simply using their knowledge and previously gained skills to survive. When redundancy is announced every 18mths the same people are frightened of the big bad world because they know that there skills will be questioned and possibly not worth a great deal.
The question remains OP, do you want to have a dynamic set of skills that can be moved from company to company or do you want to locked into a single place for the rest of your days?
Congrats OP, great news.
Tall_Paul said:
So, as an update to this - I did take on board everyone's thoughts - and kept my eye out for something decent to pop up.
Short story - I start my new job in exactly 4 weeks
Found something with a 5 mile round trip commute vs the 35 miles I'm currently doing, a bit more money but not masses - however I'll have a pay review after 6 months (yes, got it all in writing!). A very similar company and they seem to be expanding pretty fast as they wanted 2x my new role and have just taken on 2x apprentices too. I'll miss the guys I work with, but I think my leaving has just 'unsettled the ship' somewhat and I can honestly see 1 or 2 more people leaving in the next few months.
Overall I'm happy - I get a bit more money, a lot more experience, a far better commute and I'm finally seeing some movement after being stuck in a rut basically doing the same thing for the past couple of years.
In the last 6 months (and in fact, since working here) I've applied for 2 jobs, had 2 interviews and got offered 1 of the jobs, so i'm happy with that.
Just thought I'd put another update on this as it may help someone else in the same or similar boat...Short story - I start my new job in exactly 4 weeks
Found something with a 5 mile round trip commute vs the 35 miles I'm currently doing, a bit more money but not masses - however I'll have a pay review after 6 months (yes, got it all in writing!). A very similar company and they seem to be expanding pretty fast as they wanted 2x my new role and have just taken on 2x apprentices too. I'll miss the guys I work with, but I think my leaving has just 'unsettled the ship' somewhat and I can honestly see 1 or 2 more people leaving in the next few months.
Overall I'm happy - I get a bit more money, a lot more experience, a far better commute and I'm finally seeing some movement after being stuck in a rut basically doing the same thing for the past couple of years.
In the last 6 months (and in fact, since working here) I've applied for 2 jobs, had 2 interviews and got offered 1 of the jobs, so i'm happy with that.
18 months on, what's happened then?
Well, the new job role was certainly an experience, and I don't regret moving one bit - I gained a heap of experience in that role, I was there for a year. Never did get my 6 month pay review, which basically sums up their high lack of organisation/documentation/processes...
Around Christmas I started looking for something else and didn't apply for a single role but had telephone interviews every week, and 5 face to face interviews in a month. 7 months ago, I moved to a new role in Desktop Support for a large company, 1600+ people and with an IT department of a few hundred. A bit of a sideways move in job role, but a massive jump in money, and with vastly better progression opportunities. In the 18 months or so from the initial move that I started this thread about, as of now my salary has increased by £12k. I've just put in an internal application (blessed by my manager, he's expecting me to move up pretty quickly) for an low level Infrastructure IaC role, which I think would be another £2-5K on top, if I get it. My experience/skills are far in excess of what they need tbh.
So, yeah. The right move.
I could be looking at nearly doubling my salary within 2 years of moving...Tall_Paul said:
Just thought I'd put another update on this as it may help someone else in the same or similar boat...
18 months on, what's happened then?
Well, the new job role was certainly an experience, and I don't regret moving one bit - I gained a heap of experience in that role, I was there for a year. Never did get my 6 month pay review, which basically sums up their high lack of organisation/documentation/processes...
Around Christmas I started looking for something else and didn't apply for a single role but had telephone interviews every week, and 5 face to face interviews in a month. 7 months ago, I moved to a new role in Desktop Support for a large company, 1600+ people and with an IT department of a few hundred. A bit of a sideways move in job role, but a massive jump in money, and with vastly better progression opportunities. In the 18 months or so from the initial move that I started this thread about, as of now my salary has increased by £12k. I've just put in an internal application (blessed by my manager, he's expecting me to move up pretty quickly) for an low level Infrastructure IaC role, which I think would be another £2-5K on top, if I get it. My experience/skills are far in excess of what they need tbh.
So, yeah. The right move. I could be looking at nearly doubling my salary within 2 years of moving...
From stultifying and becoming dead wood in an organisation to creating the start of a career and massively increasing your value and your pay within 2 years. Well done, great example of getting off your backside and improving your situation. 18 months on, what's happened then?
Well, the new job role was certainly an experience, and I don't regret moving one bit - I gained a heap of experience in that role, I was there for a year. Never did get my 6 month pay review, which basically sums up their high lack of organisation/documentation/processes...
Around Christmas I started looking for something else and didn't apply for a single role but had telephone interviews every week, and 5 face to face interviews in a month. 7 months ago, I moved to a new role in Desktop Support for a large company, 1600+ people and with an IT department of a few hundred. A bit of a sideways move in job role, but a massive jump in money, and with vastly better progression opportunities. In the 18 months or so from the initial move that I started this thread about, as of now my salary has increased by £12k. I've just put in an internal application (blessed by my manager, he's expecting me to move up pretty quickly) for an low level Infrastructure IaC role, which I think would be another £2-5K on top, if I get it. My experience/skills are far in excess of what they need tbh.
So, yeah. The right move.
I could be looking at nearly doubling my salary within 2 years of moving...Fantastic to hear ! Congrats OP.
I work in HR and manage talent for the company.
20 years ago - almost 60% of company vacancies (we are talking whole market not my current firm). Would be internal candidates being promoted or moved into new roles.
Harvard Business review says today its something like 30%.
It is clear, if you want to move up, you may need to move on.
I work in HR and manage talent for the company.
20 years ago - almost 60% of company vacancies (we are talking whole market not my current firm). Would be internal candidates being promoted or moved into new roles.
Harvard Business review says today its something like 30%.
It is clear, if you want to move up, you may need to move on.
Gargamel said:
Fantastic to hear ! Congrats OP.
I work in HR and manage talent for the company.
20 years ago - almost 60% of company vacancies (we are talking whole market not my current firm). Would be internal candidates being promoted or moved into new roles.
Harvard Business review says today its something like 30%.
It is clear, if you want to move up, you may need to move on.
I can believe that, I've always had to "move on" except I got promoted from working level to senior recently so I'm happy with that for a while!I work in HR and manage talent for the company.
20 years ago - almost 60% of company vacancies (we are talking whole market not my current firm). Would be internal candidates being promoted or moved into new roles.
Harvard Business review says today its something like 30%.
It is clear, if you want to move up, you may need to move on.
95JO said:
Best of luck for your interview, I hope you get it - I'm a Sr DevOps Engineer so I can approve of an IaC role, a lot of progression opportunities available in this area!
Cheers - we have both traditional on prem infra roles and the IaC focused roles which involve agile/sprints etc, I would have been waiting for an on prem role to come up but this could be a very good opportunity, and as you say plenty of room for progression! And completely agree about having to move sometimes, I'm planning to move up internally here at least once as there's lots of room to move to other teams, then if I need to move to progress further I'll happily do so.
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