Salary matching - proof?

[Countdown]

SystemParanoia said:

<snip>
but those that you don't value ( or value less compared to others in the same role ) also deserve to know this.

Why?

When you sign up to any job it's rare (IME) that you'll be told what everybody else is on. So at what point do you suddenly get the right to be told what everybody else earns?

[SystemParanoia]

Countdown said:

SystemParanoia said:

<snip>
but those that you don't value ( or value less compared to others in the same role ) also deserve to know this.

Why?

It will either

1) motivate that employee you don't feel is worth what the others are to up their game, flesh out a proper PADP, up-skill and basically "bring it"

2) demotivate that employee to go-slow and only do as much as they feel they should compared to the higher paid people doing the same thing ( regular performance reviews will mean this employee doesn't last long )

3) immediately quit

4) Do nothing for whatever perfectly valid reason they have


I feel that doing this will give you more of the 1's whilst clearing out the dead wood 2's

[LeoSayer]

The candidate made a statement about their current pay, not you.

I think it's quite reasonable for them to back up what they said. It's easily done.

Whether they are worth it is a different question.

[Countdown]

SystemParanoia said:

Countdown said:

SystemParanoia said:

<snip>
but those that you don't value ( or value less compared to others in the same role ) also deserve to know this.

Why?

It will either

1) motivate that employee you don't feel is worth what the others are to up their game, flesh out a proper PADP, up-skill and basically "bring it"

2) demotivate that employee to go-slow and only do as much as they feel they should compared to the higher paid people doing the same thing ( regular performance reviews will mean this employee doesn't last long )

3) immediately quit

4) Do nothing for whatever perfectly valid reason they have


I feel that doing this will give you more of the 1's whilst clearing out the dead wood 2's

I don't disagree that they will do one of the options above.

I was just wondering why they deserve the right to be told? By "not telling them" the employer avoids 2 or 3 happening, and 4 has no impact, and an employer can implement performance improvement(1) at any time they choose.

I guess the point I'm making is that the Employer doesn't have much, if anything, to gain from disclosing salaries information, and there's no contractual obligation for doing so. So why should they?

[SystemParanoia]

Countdown said:

SystemParanoia said:

Countdown said:

SystemParanoia said:

<snip>
but those that you don't value ( or value less compared to others in the same role ) also deserve to know this.

Why?

It will either

1) motivate that employee you don't feel is worth what the others are to up their game, flesh out a proper PADP, up-skill and basically "bring it"

2) demotivate that employee to go-slow and only do as much as they feel they should compared to the higher paid people doing the same thing ( regular performance reviews will mean this employee doesn't last long )

3) immediately quit

4) Do nothing for whatever perfectly valid reason they have


I feel that doing this will give you more of the 1's whilst clearing out the dead wood 2's

I don't disagree that they will do one of the options above.

I was just wondering why they deserve the right to be told? By "not telling them" the employer avoids 2 or 3 happening, and 4 has no impact, and an employer can implement performance improvement(1) at any time they choose.

I guess the point I'm making is that the Employer doesn't have much, if anything, to gain from disclosing salaries information, and there's no contractual obligation for doing so. So why should they?

Its that same thing that's allowed women to be paid less than their male counterparts without repercussion.

Just like gang members seem to have a "don't snitch" mentality.. the only people it benefits to keep quiet or keep it all secret are those at the top. it does nothing for those at the bottom or those climbing the ladder.

They [b]deserve[b] to know at the same time as receiving their network domain logins so that right from the start, everything is in the open and resentment doesn't have a chance to build.

Although seeing a car park full of Aston martins plus your own Vauxhall Nova that you can barely afford to keep on the road should start the alarm bells ringing.

[Antony Moxey]

SystemParanoia said:

Antony Moxey said:

SystemParanoia said:

Antony Moxey said:

Wow, talk about appropriate username.

You see a problem with being open and transparent about pay ?

No, but your comment was ridiculous: so the employee can see how much you don’t value them. I’d hate to employ someone like you with an attitude like that.

If you were paying me minimum wage and the person sat next to me 10k more for for the exact same job.. errm yes id have a bad attitude

and as an employer.. if you truly value someone.. you show it with a bigger paycheck. For example, you value the Global CTO more highly than the part time weekend cleaner.. we get it.

im not disputing that. everyone above agrees.

but those that you don't value ( or value less compared to others in the same role ) also deserve to know this.

theres a pecking order.. its nice to know where you are in the line.

Why do you suppose I'd be paying you the minimum wage? Why do you suppose the person sitting next to you was earning £10k more? You've got that attitude without knowing anything about who earns what and are merely assuming that the employee is 'undervalued'. Seems to me it's rather the contrary and that you've got an over inflated opinion of your own talents. Having read your posts I know I'd never employ someone with your predertimed viewpoint of how my company values its employees.

[SystemParanoia]

Antony Moxey said:

SystemParanoia said:

Antony Moxey said:

SystemParanoia said:

Antony Moxey said:

Wow, talk about appropriate username.

You see a problem with being open and transparent about pay ?

No, but your comment was ridiculous: so the employee can see how much you don’t value them. I’d hate to employ someone like you with an attitude like that.

If you were paying me minimum wage and the person sat next to me 10k more for for the exact same job.. errm yes id have a bad attitude

and as an employer.. if you truly value someone.. you show it with a bigger paycheck. For example, you value the Global CTO more highly than the part time weekend cleaner.. we get it.

im not disputing that. everyone above agrees.

but those that you don't value ( or value less compared to others in the same role ) also deserve to know this.

theres a pecking order.. its nice to know where you are in the line.

Why do you suppose I'd be paying you the minimum wage? Why do you suppose the person sitting next to you was earning £10k more? You've got that attitude without knowing anything about who earns what and are merely assuming that the employee is 'undervalued'. Seems to me it's rather the contrary and that you've got an over inflated opinion of your own talents. Having read your posts I know I'd never employ someone with your predertimed viewpoint of how my company values its employees.

note the use of the word IF

which then proceeded to frame a hypothetical scenario to assist me in making a point derived from hyperbole.

I also referenced multiple times employees doing the EXACT same role... everyone expects to be paid less than their manager.. ( although in some industries this is hilariously not the case )

I have made no judgements, I have only stated that everything should be GNU.. the world will be a better place for it.

[Antony Moxey]

SystemParanoia said:

Antony Moxey said:

SystemParanoia said:

Antony Moxey said:

SystemParanoia said:

Antony Moxey said:

Wow, talk about appropriate username.

You see a problem with being open and transparent about pay ?

No, but your comment was ridiculous: so the employee can see how much you don’t value them. I’d hate to employ someone like you with an attitude like that.

If you were paying me minimum wage and the person sat next to me 10k more for for the exact same job.. errm yes id have a bad attitude

and as an employer.. if you truly value someone.. you show it with a bigger paycheck. For example, you value the Global CTO more highly than the part time weekend cleaner.. we get it.

im not disputing that. everyone above agrees.

but those that you don't value ( or value less compared to others in the same role ) also deserve to know this.


theres a pecking order.. its nice to know where you are in the line.

Why do you suppose I'd be paying you the minimum wage? Why do you suppose the person sitting next to you was earning £10k more? You've got that attitude without knowing anything about who earns what and are merely assuming that the employee is 'undervalued'. Seems to me it's rather the contrary and that you've got an over inflated opinion of your own talents. Having read your posts I know I'd never employ someone with your predertimed viewpoint of how my company values its employees.

note the use of the word IF

which then proceeded to frame a hypothetical scenario to assist me in making a point derived from hyperbole.

I also referenced multiple times employees doing the EXACT same role... everyone expects to be paid less than their manager.. ( although in some industries this is hilariously not the case )

I have made no judgements, I have only stated that everything should be GNU.. the world will be a better place for it.

Yes you did make a judgement, you said: 'so the employee can see how much you don't value them.' If that's not judgemental then I'm not sure what is.

[SystemParanoia]

Antony Moxey said:

SystemParanoia said:

Antony Moxey said:

SystemParanoia said:

Antony Moxey said:

SystemParanoia said:

Antony Moxey said:

Wow, talk about appropriate username.

You see a problem with being open and transparent about pay ?

No, but your comment was ridiculous: so the employee can see how much you don’t value them. I’d hate to employ someone like you with an attitude like that.

If you were paying me minimum wage and the person sat next to me 10k more for for the exact same job.. errm yes id have a bad attitude

and as an employer.. if you truly value someone.. you show it with a bigger paycheck. For example, you value the Global CTO more highly than the part time weekend cleaner.. we get it.

im not disputing that. everyone above agrees.

but those that you don't value ( or value less compared to others in the same role ) also deserve to know this.


theres a pecking order.. its nice to know where you are in the line.

Why do you suppose I'd be paying you the minimum wage? Why do you suppose the person sitting next to you was earning £10k more? You've got that attitude without knowing anything about who earns what and are merely assuming that the employee is 'undervalued'. Seems to me it's rather the contrary and that you've got an over inflated opinion of your own talents. Having read your posts I know I'd never employ someone with your predertimed viewpoint of how my company values its employees.

note the use of the word IF

which then proceeded to frame a hypothetical scenario to assist me in making a point derived from hyperbole.

I also referenced multiple times employees doing the EXACT same role... everyone expects to be paid less than their manager.. ( although in some industries this is hilariously not the case )

I have made no judgements, I have only stated that everything should be GNU.. the world will be a better place for it.

Yes you did make a judgement, you said: 'so the employee can see how much you don't value them.' If that's not judgemental then I'm not sure what is.

So why don't you tell me what the employee that sees his colleague who does exactly the same job, for exactly the same hours, with near enough the same 1-2-1 review outcomes.. gets paid £10k more actually thinks

[helmutlaang]

SystemParanoia said:

DSLiverpool said:

SystemParanoia said:

DSLiverpool said:

We made the person an offer of the salary we will pay for the job, we are continuing to interview but should know shortly.

How much was he asking for?

How much did you offer?

As I dont hide my company info I cant go into detail, we have 3 maybe 4 new starters coming aboard quite stressful.

Being all hush hush about salaries is the biggest problem in employment.

Just be open, let people see how much you don't value them vs the person sitting next to them doing the exact same job.

Not quite as simple as that.

What if the person next to you had been there 30yrs and had multiple pay rises in a grading structure? Would you expect to start on their salary?

The person next to you doing the same job may also be trained in another job which you know nothing about and is paid accordingly.

I know if we revealed people’s salaries where I work it would be a civil war!

[Countdown]

SystemParanoia said:

So why don't you tell me what the employee that sees his colleague who does exactly the same job, for exactly the same hours, with near enough the same 1-2-1 review outcomes.. gets paid £10k more actually thinks

Because there's no benefit from the Employer's point of view so why should they?

[djc206]

helmutlaang said:

Not quite as simple as that.

What if the person next to you had been there 30yrs and had multiple pay rises in a grading structure? Would you expect to start on their salary?

The person next to you doing the same job may also be trained in another job which you know nothing about and is paid accordingly.

I know if we revealed people’s salaries where I work it would be a civil war!

Where I work we’re all on the same scale. From bottom to top is about £50k difference and there are 12 points, each April you move up one. Everyone therefore knows or could easily work out how much everyone else is paid and it causes no issues whatsoever. Extra money can be earned for supervising, training, examining etc but fairly trivial sums in the grand scheme of things and again known to everyone else.

[anonymous-user]

Countdown said:

SystemParanoia said:

So why don't you tell me what the employee that sees his colleague who does exactly the same job, for exactly the same hours, with near enough the same 1-2-1 review outcomes.. gets paid £10k more actually thinks

Because there's no benefit from the Employer's point of view so why should they?

I used to work for an American consultancy and everyone knew everyone else's salary as every grade had a fixed amount.

It worked really well as people focussed on proving their value to get to the next grade rather than getting pissed off that others were on more money

[DSLiverpool]

Whilst I have a captive audience I want to introduce a profit share scheme - any pointers on what works and what doesn’t? We are tiny so no grand ideas please.

[Antony Moxey]

When I had my business I just used to give staff a couple of hundred quid extra at Christmas. The more cash we had in the bank the more they got so long as we had enough to not have to worry about cash flow. As we were a small partnership with a few employees they didn’t need to know how well we were doing or not but they never didn’t get anything.

[PBDirector]

DSLiverpool said:

Whilst I have a captive audience I want to introduce a profit share scheme - any pointers on what works and what doesn’t? We are tiny so no grand ideas please.

Oh Christ. This is a tough one. I researched this for _years_. Tried a few things. Concluded it’s not worth the hassle and I’d only ever pay a good wage and be a good employer.

Sorry that doesn’t help. I guess if you’re going to do it the advice is 1) keep the rule as simple as possible. As soon as you try to be clever, the rules will be gamed and 2) make sure it’s a long term success metric you’re paying off against. Otherwise you’ll be bled dry by shirt term business.

Good luck though, I admire you if you make it work.

[DSLiverpool]

Thanks chaps, I might make it on new clients and client retention as by default if we keep clients we make money. I will come back with whats decided - new office April, 3 new hires April potential huge new client coming March and I was ready to retire! (lifestyle bagel bakery / shop in sight, never baked, never sold food but as long as I dont lose too much its what I want to do before I sit dribbling in front of the tv seeing out my last years)

[PBDirector]

DSLiverpool said:

Thanks chaps, I might make it on new clients and client retention as by default if we keep clients we make money. I will come back with whats decided - new office April, 3 new hires April potential huge new client coming March and I was ready to retire! (lifestyle bagel bakery / shop in sight, never baked, never sold food but as long as I dont lose too much its what I want to do before I sit dribbling in front of the tv seeing out my last years)

Do *not hesitate* to make it so that the client has to have remained for x months or spent £y - or whatever it is that guarantees you’re up.

I’ve seen salesmen sign up new clients and collect the bonus even though they knew the client was signed up for the wrong thing and would 100% want to refund. Didn’t matter, bonus achieved. Etc

[DSLiverpool]

PBDirector said:

DSLiverpool said:

Thanks chaps, I might make it on new clients and client retention as by default if we keep clients we make money. I will come back with whats decided - new office April, 3 new hires April potential huge new client coming March and I was ready to retire! (lifestyle bagel bakery / shop in sight, never baked, never sold food but as long as I dont lose too much its what I want to do before I sit dribbling in front of the tv seeing out my last years)

Do *not hesitate* to make it so that the client has to have remained for x months or spent £y - or whatever it is that guarantees you’re up.

I’ve seen salesmen sign up new clients and collect the bonus even though they knew the client was signed up for the wrong thing and would 100% want to refund. Didn’t matter, bonus achieved. Etc

Gold dust that one gold dust

[Countdown]

djc206 said:

helmutlaang said:

Not quite as simple as that.

What if the person next to you had been there 30yrs and had multiple pay rises in a grading structure? Would you expect to start on their salary?

The person next to you doing the same job may also be trained in another job which you know nothing about and is paid accordingly.

I know if we revealed people’s salaries where I work it would be a civil war!

Where I work we’re all on the same scale. From bottom to top is about £50k difference and there are 12 points, each April you move up one. Everyone therefore knows or could easily work out how much everyone else is paid and it causes no issues whatsoever. Extra money can be earned for supervising, training, examining etc but fairly trivial sums in the grand scheme of things and again known to everyone else.

Is it automatic progression or performance related? If it's automatic then how do you differentiate between the high performers and the dross?