Salary matching - proof?
Discussion
Countdown said:
SystemParanoia said:
You see a problem with being open and transparent about pay ?
Yes, if it results in a lack of motivation or people b
hing about each other. It's like asking employees to be open and transparent about applying for other jobs and what salaries they're asking forI work in a large MNC and currently have a German contract which tripled my UK salary, the French and Spanish also have a simple set scale salary system where your grade / band + (in France years service) = salary, in the UK it can be anything.
It is such a demotivating factor for team members.
Lord.Vader said:
The UK system is BS, the same people can be sat doing the same job yet earning 1 / 1.5 / 2 times more or less than others doing the same role.
I work in a large MNC and currently have a German contract which tripled my UK salary, the French and Spanish also have a simple set scale salary system where your grade / band + (in France years service) = salary, in the UK it can be anything.
It is such a demotivating factor for team members.
In that case it's probably a good idea not to tell them what everybody else is earning. I work in a large MNC and currently have a German contract which tripled my UK salary, the French and Spanish also have a simple set scale salary system where your grade / band + (in France years service) = salary, in the UK it can be anything.
It is such a demotivating factor for team members.
Lord.Vader said:
The UK system is BS, the same people can be sat doing the same job yet earning 1 / 1.5 / 2 times more or less than others doing the same role.
I work in a large MNC and currently have a German contract which tripled my UK salary, the French and Spanish also have a simple set scale salary system where your grade / band + (in France years service) = salary, in the UK it can be anything.
It is such a demotivating factor for team members.
I presume you don't care that the clock watcher in your team does less work and gets the same pay as you. It is such a demotivating factor for teams.I work in a large MNC and currently have a German contract which tripled my UK salary, the French and Spanish also have a simple set scale salary system where your grade / band + (in France years service) = salary, in the UK it can be anything.
It is such a demotivating factor for team members.
I prefer to be paid based on my performance, if they fall behind the market rate I will move on. Let the clock watcher look after himself.
Countdown said:
djc206 said:
helmutlaang said:
Not quite as simple as that.
What if the person next to you had been there 30yrs and had multiple pay rises in a grading structure? Would you expect to start on their salary?
The person next to you doing the same job may also be trained in another job which you know nothing about and is paid accordingly.
I know if we revealed people’s salaries where I work it would be a civil war!
Where I work we’re all on the same scale. From bottom to top is about £50k difference and there are 12 points, each April you move up one. Everyone therefore knows or could easily work out how much everyone else is paid and it causes no issues whatsoever. Extra money can be earned for supervising, training, examining etc but fairly trivial sums in the grand scheme of things and again known to everyone else.What if the person next to you had been there 30yrs and had multiple pay rises in a grading structure? Would you expect to start on their salary?
The person next to you doing the same job may also be trained in another job which you know nothing about and is paid accordingly.
I know if we revealed people’s salaries where I work it would be a civil war!
DSLiverpool said:
Countdown and Fffrair thanks you understand my position.
The person we want is quite rare, young and by default overly confident and astute. Personally all I see these days are over pampered snowflakes wanting the most cash for the least effort. Checking salary is one metric I can use to weed out the dreamers however in digital marketing by default they should be good at selling themselves (or what you want them to be) and you only realise it’s not right a few months in with everyone’s time being wasted. Trying to avoid that.
Young people are moaned at for being too shy and now too confident?The person we want is quite rare, young and by default overly confident and astute. Personally all I see these days are over pampered snowflakes wanting the most cash for the least effort. Checking salary is one metric I can use to weed out the dreamers however in digital marketing by default they should be good at selling themselves (or what you want them to be) and you only realise it’s not right a few months in with everyone’s time being wasted. Trying to avoid that.
If they are good and they want the job then what's the harm?
I always over estimate my salary by 5-10% when starting a new job, you generally don't change job to stay at the same income.
djc206 said:
Automatic. You don’t but thanks to competency checks there isn’t really any dross as such. The more talented have more chance to take on additional duties or progress for a little extra money. More than anything being a high performer makes the job much more satisfying and considerably less stressful.
A 12 year length of service progression for pay? I hope you don't have a gender imbalance in that group and if you do, you have excellent reasoning for it being that long.....djc206 said:
Countdown said:
djc206 said:
helmutlaang said:
Not quite as simple as that.
What if the person next to you had been there 30yrs and had multiple pay rises in a grading structure? Would you expect to start on their salary?
The person next to you doing the same job may also be trained in another job which you know nothing about and is paid accordingly.
I know if we revealed people’s salaries where I work it would be a civil war!
Where I work we’re all on the same scale. From bottom to top is about £50k difference and there are 12 points, each April you move up one. Everyone therefore knows or could easily work out how much everyone else is paid and it causes no issues whatsoever. Extra money can be earned for supervising, training, examining etc but fairly trivial sums in the grand scheme of things and again known to everyone else.What if the person next to you had been there 30yrs and had multiple pay rises in a grading structure? Would you expect to start on their salary?
The person next to you doing the same job may also be trained in another job which you know nothing about and is paid accordingly.
I know if we revealed people’s salaries where I work it would be a civil war!
However, in my experience, most teams have a mix of characters and capabilities. You might have 10% stars, 60% good, 20% could do better, and 10% who are a complete waste of space. Which means you need a way of recognising the great/good from the not so great/not so good. You could argue that the “Not so good” need to be managed better and that’s fair enough but what’s the incentive for them to do better if they’re not going to be paid any more?
Countdown said:
Don’t get me wrong, if it works for you it works for you
However, in my experience, most teams have a mix of characters and capabilities. You might have 10% stars, 60% good, 20% could do better, and 10% who are a complete waste of space. Which means you need a way of recognising the great/good from the not so great/not so good. You could argue that the “Not so good” need to be managed better and that’s fair enough but what’s the incentive for them to do better if they’re not going to be paid any more?
We’re not really a normal profession in that our training filters out the dross, you have to reach a high level of competency to ever qualify and the failure rate is quite high even after a fairly intensive selection process. The pay is good enough to provide all the motivation needed to make an effort, there’s also not an opportunity to slack off or not do your job. It’s quite a unique circumstance really. In an office environment I can see why you’d use a carrot and stick approach, there’s no need for that with the environment I work in.However, in my experience, most teams have a mix of characters and capabilities. You might have 10% stars, 60% good, 20% could do better, and 10% who are a complete waste of space. Which means you need a way of recognising the great/good from the not so great/not so good. You could argue that the “Not so good” need to be managed better and that’s fair enough but what’s the incentive for them to do better if they’re not going to be paid any more?
I got asked this question this week. They wanted my basic salary, bonus and benefits and said I "need to be precise as these will be matched against payslips."
My first thought was, shove off.
Then my reply was,
"Happy to provide payslips post-offer. Salary expectation to move away from my current role is XXX. Unfortunately, below this wouldn't be financially viable for me. Hopefully this provides you the information you need."
They got back to me with their max rate, which was below, so I declined. No time wasted by either party and I can happily move on knowing at what rate they operate in the market.
My first thought was, shove off.
Then my reply was,
"Happy to provide payslips post-offer. Salary expectation to move away from my current role is XXX. Unfortunately, below this wouldn't be financially viable for me. Hopefully this provides you the information you need."
They got back to me with their max rate, which was below, so I declined. No time wasted by either party and I can happily move on knowing at what rate they operate in the market.
djc206 said:
We’re not really a normal profession in that our training filters out the dross, you have to reach a high level of competency to ever qualify and the failure rate is quite high even after a fairly intensive selection process. The pay is good enough to provide all the motivation needed to make an effort, there’s also not an opportunity to slack off or not do your job. It’s quite a unique circumstance really. In an office environment I can see why you’d use a carrot and stick approach, there’s no need for that with the environment I work in.
Doctor?OP, weren't you boasting a few months ago about getting high quality graduates from an EU scheme on the cheap? Then you ditched them as soon as you found out it wasn't quite so cheap after all?
And now you are trying to dig up previous salary information to catch out a prospective employee?
And now you are trying to dig up previous salary information to catch out a prospective employee?
DSLiverpool said:
Whilst I have a captive audience I want to introduce a profit share scheme - any pointers on what works and what doesn’t? We are tiny so no grand ideas please.
My last employer had a scheme where if I brought in any extra income I would be able to keep 10% onto my salary.
Olivera said:
OP, weren't you boasting a few months ago about getting high quality graduates from an EU scheme on the cheap? Then you ditched them as soon as you found out it wasn't quite so cheap after all?
And now you are trying to dig up previous salary information to catch out a prospective employee?
The email about the scheme confirmed a cost of 10% of the training course no mention of salary - why would we pay a guy a decent salary to learn to code and bugger off?And now you are trying to dig up previous salary information to catch out a prospective employee?
The salary matching is me thinking not all people who do “creative” work are worth whatever salary they ask, we are near full employment as a country and some think they can swing from job to job spreading their ability thinly as they go - harsh?
IJWS15 said:
Lord.Vader said:
The UK system is BS, the same people can be sat doing the same job yet earning 1 / 1.5 / 2 times more or less than others doing the same role.
I work in a large MNC and currently have a German contract which tripled my UK salary, the French and Spanish also have a simple set scale salary system where your grade / band + (in France years service) = salary, in the UK it can be anything.
It is such a demotivating factor for team members.
I presume you don't care that the clock watcher in your team does less work and gets the same pay as you. It is such a demotivating factor for teams.I work in a large MNC and currently have a German contract which tripled my UK salary, the French and Spanish also have a simple set scale salary system where your grade / band + (in France years service) = salary, in the UK it can be anything.
It is such a demotivating factor for team members.
I prefer to be paid based on my performance, if they fall behind the market rate I will move on. Let the clock watcher look after himself.
As others have said, we have a variety of people on the same or similar money and inevitably, some are better than others.
The idea that most workers, in most industries, on the same money, are equally productive, conscientious, hard working & valuable to the company seems to only have merit if everyone is working to rule - as an employer, I like simple systems but it infuriates me that someone doing the bare minimum gets paid the same as someone with the same role on paper but who in reality, goes above and beyond
We tend to deal with it by giving discretionary bonuses at Xmas, giving more to those who have done a better job/worked harder/been more productive/etc
Here we are again, guy we have known for years we think would be good client facing and he is not working so thought it was a match made in heaven but he wants double what we thought for the role (maybe 80% more to be fair).
I`ll make him an offer with bonus`s and reviews and performance rewards etc but the nice feeling I had has soured somewhat based on the fact he knows were young and its a good opportunity to get it whilst its growing etc.
Maybe grasping all you can is the way of the world these days.
I`ll make him an offer with bonus`s and reviews and performance rewards etc but the nice feeling I had has soured somewhat based on the fact he knows were young and its a good opportunity to get it whilst its growing etc.
Maybe grasping all you can is the way of the world these days.
It’s always troubled me, this one. Always got my back up.
I understand that the new employer has an obligation to limit costs, but it’s almost a sense that they’re being taken advantage of if the new salary isn’t a modest, incremental amount above the old one.
It’s purely down to the figure you value them at. If that’s significantly higher, what does it matter? You’ll get the benefit of being a great employer who recognises and values talent? That kind of soft positive reputational boost is massively beneficial, surely?
For the employee, they’ll want to price in the risk of moving. They’ll want to price in the risk of starting again in terms of internal relationships, networks and the like.
Totally bizarre.
Personally I find permie employment really claustrophobic and slightly creepy as you’re owned 24x7x365 in some ways.
But that’s just me.
I understand that the new employer has an obligation to limit costs, but it’s almost a sense that they’re being taken advantage of if the new salary isn’t a modest, incremental amount above the old one.
It’s purely down to the figure you value them at. If that’s significantly higher, what does it matter? You’ll get the benefit of being a great employer who recognises and values talent? That kind of soft positive reputational boost is massively beneficial, surely?
For the employee, they’ll want to price in the risk of moving. They’ll want to price in the risk of starting again in terms of internal relationships, networks and the like.
Totally bizarre.
Personally I find permie employment really claustrophobic and slightly creepy as you’re owned 24x7x365 in some ways.
But that’s just me.
Edited by Leonard Stanley on Sunday 10th June 14:45
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