Disparate Pay & Contracting
Discussion
Monsterlime said:
I am relatively senior in my company, being responsible for all of our database platforms across the organisation (global), and I have one direct report plus a 3rd party support company who works for us and reports directly to me (it probably isn't quite enough, but we cope). I am based in London, while the direct report is in New York, as is my boss.
I worked for a company many years back. Our team was split between the UK and US (my boss was in the US).For the equivalent grade and job in the US - people were being paid around 50% more in real terms than the UK staff got.
The US just seem to value technical/scientific people more than the UK did. Don't know whether this is still true - it was around 12-15 years ago.
It's an easy thing to do - do the currency conversion, then complain that the US are paid more.
Look at the package, then look at cost of living (house prices, cost of borrowing, health insurance, etc etc), then make the comparison.
When you've done that, realise it's just not at all important. The comment about India was certainly interesting, yet you didn't really seem to consider it. IT Director - $40k. Sound fair?
I probably have too little patience for people comparing salaries. Ultimately, it comes down to what you bring to the business and what your skills are valued in the market. If someone else negotiated well, then good for them, they deserve the benefit. If you didn't, then make sure you understand the market (and ultimately what you could get elsewhere), and do the same thing.
Look at the package, then look at cost of living (house prices, cost of borrowing, health insurance, etc etc), then make the comparison.
When you've done that, realise it's just not at all important. The comment about India was certainly interesting, yet you didn't really seem to consider it. IT Director - $40k. Sound fair?
I probably have too little patience for people comparing salaries. Ultimately, it comes down to what you bring to the business and what your skills are valued in the market. If someone else negotiated well, then good for them, they deserve the benefit. If you didn't, then make sure you understand the market (and ultimately what you could get elsewhere), and do the same thing.
Edited by yajeed on Friday 22 June 15:51
Monsterlime said:
I am relatively senior in my company, being responsible for all of our database platforms across the organisation (global), and I have one direct report plus a 3rd party support company who works for us and reports directly to me (it probably isn't quite enough, but we cope). I am based in London, while the direct report is in New York, as is my boss.
I dont think you can reasonably compare salaries on other continents to yours to be honest.Monsterlime said:
Quite enlightening! We do not have a unified HR, so I deal with UK HR, he and my boss deal with NA HR. It can get a bit confusing, and I have no idea what the rest of his benefits package is. I do know he gets a lot less holiday, as do most of my US colleagues.
As it happens, I AM the head of a department, with a fairly pretentious job title that includes the word Director with global responsibilities. I am still very hands on technically, but also set policy and standards for all of our various DB technologies, architect new solutions and manage a small team, among other things.
Contracting wise, I would just be a DBA, and from looking around Jobserve etc, the day rate I could get would work out to be a significant amount more than what I earn right now, in the realms of 30-50%.
To compare my current position/salary with other equivalent perm roles, searching for a DBA/Senior DBA doesn't really help, so I probably need to look more at the department head type roles to see where I am, which I hadn't really considered until this thread, so that has been quite helpful. I still think of myself as a DBA, just with some added fluff, and that is a mindset I need to get away from.
I have been at this company for over 6 years now, so the uncertainty of contracting, the buffer needed and really my lack of knowledge around the whole process is what has held me back from just jumping in. And, as has been reasonably said, I should probably stay in this role for at least 6 months to a year before looking to go, with the imminent birth of our first child.
I think you should do as you're proposing and go contracting.As it happens, I AM the head of a department, with a fairly pretentious job title that includes the word Director with global responsibilities. I am still very hands on technically, but also set policy and standards for all of our various DB technologies, architect new solutions and manage a small team, among other things.
Contracting wise, I would just be a DBA, and from looking around Jobserve etc, the day rate I could get would work out to be a significant amount more than what I earn right now, in the realms of 30-50%.
To compare my current position/salary with other equivalent perm roles, searching for a DBA/Senior DBA doesn't really help, so I probably need to look more at the department head type roles to see where I am, which I hadn't really considered until this thread, so that has been quite helpful. I still think of myself as a DBA, just with some added fluff, and that is a mindset I need to get away from.
I have been at this company for over 6 years now, so the uncertainty of contracting, the buffer needed and really my lack of knowledge around the whole process is what has held me back from just jumping in. And, as has been reasonably said, I should probably stay in this role for at least 6 months to a year before looking to go, with the imminent birth of our first child.
Whilst contracting isnt as tax efficient as it was, you still pay tax at a much lower rate overall, can offset loads of expenses, etc, etc.
In terms of drawing money from a new limited company, absolutely nothing at all stopping you from taking money out as a salary as soon as your first payment from your client hits the bank account - having to wait 6 months before you can take any money out of the business is plain wrong.
Likewise "building relationships" doesnt come in to it much for me - put your CV up on the main job boards, and check job roles daily. Apply for roles you've at least 90% of the skills for and wait for the phone to ring.
DBA work is a common contractable skill and if you're worth your salt - and it sounds like you are - then you'll be fine.
With regards to leaving your current company with 3 months notice, either resign and wait until close to the end date to start applying (most contracts expect you to be available the following week) or get a contract and negotiate hard on / ignore the three month notice period.
No reason why DBA work cant be done remotely either so negotiate on time required on site. I had a contract with IBM before this one and was only on site something like 10 days out of the whole nine months (the role, whilst not a DBA was data based and didnt require an onsite presence)
I did it three years ago and have never looked back. Wish i'd done it years ago.
yajeed said:
I probably have too little patience for people comparing salaries. Ultimately, it comes down to what you bring to the business and what your skills are valued in the market. If someone else negotiated well, then good for them, they deserve the benefit. If you didn't, then make sure you understand the market (and ultimately what you could get elsewhere), and do the same thing.
Except at the very highest level, where money seems to be showered on CEOs, it basically comes down to what firms can get away with. No one pays more than they have to. It's dangerous to be out of whack with the norm for the job anyway - it leaves you very exposed.Even within the same continent my colleagues in Nordic countries, Germany and France are paid somewhat higher than UK but their total costs are far higher due to higher social etc costs which have considerable benefit to them. On the back of that we did get our firm to agree to higher pension contributions in the UK. And they added private dental cover to our health insurance. Little victories!
Sheepshanks said:
Except at the very highest level, where money seems to be showered on CEOs, it basically comes down to what firms can get away with. No one pays more than they have to. It's dangerous to be out of whack with the norm for the job anyway - it leaves you very exposed.
Even within the same continent my colleagues in Nordic countries, Germany and France are paid somewhat higher than UK but their total costs are far higher due to higher social etc costs which have considerable benefit to them. On the back of that we did get our firm to agree to higher pension contributions in the UK. And they added private dental cover to our health insurance. Little victories!
C level is slightly different at least for listed companies since their remuneration is public knowledge. Tens of millions for ours last year...Even within the same continent my colleagues in Nordic countries, Germany and France are paid somewhat higher than UK but their total costs are far higher due to higher social etc costs which have considerable benefit to them. On the back of that we did get our firm to agree to higher pension contributions in the UK. And they added private dental cover to our health insurance. Little victories!
The crux is the guy is on a different continent with different pay structures, tax regime, cost of living expenses, etc.
Really really unreasonable to compare salaries to someone several thousand miles away in a foreign country in a foreign currency.
I am sure if the O/P really wants a salary like that, the company would be more than happy for him to relocate to the states and pay taxes, housing, cost of living expenses, etc accordingly
If you want to look a lot closer to home for reginaly pay disparity, you only have to look at London wages compared to say Scotland or Northern Ireland. In any national company it would be quite easy for a relatively senior person operating out of the North of England, Scotland, Wales or NI to have someone working below him working out of the London office and be on more money than him.
Really really unreasonable to compare salaries to someone several thousand miles away in a foreign country in a foreign currency.
I am sure if the O/P really wants a salary like that, the company would be more than happy for him to relocate to the states and pay taxes, housing, cost of living expenses, etc accordingly
If you want to look a lot closer to home for reginaly pay disparity, you only have to look at London wages compared to say Scotland or Northern Ireland. In any national company it would be quite easy for a relatively senior person operating out of the North of England, Scotland, Wales or NI to have someone working below him working out of the London office and be on more money than him.
Edited by Deep Thought on Saturday 23 June 12:17
md4776 said:
Deep Thought said:
I think you should do as you're proposing and go contracting.
Whilst contracting isnt as tax efficient as it was, you still pay tax at a much lower rate overall, can offset loads of expenses, etc, etc.
In terms of drawing money from a new limited company, absolutely nothing at all stopping you from taking money out as a salary as soon as your first payment from your client hits the bank account - having to wait 6 months before you can take any money out of the business is plain wrong.
Likewise "building relationships" doesnt come in to it much for me - put your CV up on the main job boards, and check job roles daily. Apply for roles you've at least 90% of the skills for and wait for the phone to ring.
DBA work is a common contractable skill and if you're worth your salt - and it sounds like you are - then you'll be fine.
With regards to leaving your current company with 3 months notice, either resign and wait until close to the end date to start applying (most contracts expect you to be available the following week) or get a contract and negotiate hard on / ignore the three month notice period.
No reason why DBA work cant be done remotely either so negotiate on time required on site. I had a contract with IBM before this one and was only on site something like 10 days out of the whole nine months (the role, whilst not a DBA was data based and didnt require an onsite presence)
I did it three years ago and have never looked back. Wish i'd done it years ago.
Agree with deep thought here. There might be some confusion over what is meant, ie my current contract pays 6 weeks in arrears. Obviously this meant i had the time to find the contract plus the time to get through the onboarding process plus 6 weeks after start date before I saw any more money arriving in the company. This sometimes happens depends on the contract and generally not all that negotiatable . Whilst contracting isnt as tax efficient as it was, you still pay tax at a much lower rate overall, can offset loads of expenses, etc, etc.
In terms of drawing money from a new limited company, absolutely nothing at all stopping you from taking money out as a salary as soon as your first payment from your client hits the bank account - having to wait 6 months before you can take any money out of the business is plain wrong.
Likewise "building relationships" doesnt come in to it much for me - put your CV up on the main job boards, and check job roles daily. Apply for roles you've at least 90% of the skills for and wait for the phone to ring.
DBA work is a common contractable skill and if you're worth your salt - and it sounds like you are - then you'll be fine.
With regards to leaving your current company with 3 months notice, either resign and wait until close to the end date to start applying (most contracts expect you to be available the following week) or get a contract and negotiate hard on / ignore the three month notice period.
No reason why DBA work cant be done remotely either so negotiate on time required on site. I had a contract with IBM before this one and was only on site something like 10 days out of the whole nine months (the role, whilst not a DBA was data based and didnt require an onsite presence)
I did it three years ago and have never looked back. Wish i'd done it years ago.
Once money is in the company you might get advice on how much you withdraw a month in wages and dividend but this is for tax efficiency purposes and should be based on what tax you've already paid in the tax year. You can ignore this and take the lot and pay the tax implications when the time comes if you'd prefer.
I have no intention of moving to the US. Office is actually in New Jersey, but on the bank of the Hudson very close to the PATH train that goes under the Hudson, into the newish station for the World Trade.
As a tangent, how many people who work in London, actually live in London and pay London prices? Because, based on how busy the commuter trains are, I suspect many more work there than live there.
Just to be clear, before any one else turns up to tell me I am a terrible human being for comparing wages between the UK and US, I now understand the error of my ways and will correct the error. I have also had myself flogged, if that helps others sleep at night. As my wife is due to give birth soon, there will be another of my ilk roaming the planet, be sure to the avoid them as they might give you the plague.
Monsterlime said:
Just to be clear, before any one else turns up to tell me I am a terrible human being for comparing wages between the UK and US, I now understand the error of my ways and will correct the error. I have also had myself flogged, if that helps others sleep at night. As my wife is due to give birth soon, there will be another of my ilk roaming the planet, be sure to the avoid them as they might give you the plague.
To simplify things, perhaps when posting to ask questions you could also indicate the type of answer you'd like to receive, it'd make things far easier. It'd save you all manner of flouncing too...To a degree, I think it was more the tone of some answers, than the answer itself. And I probably missed a smiley off the end of that, so another flogging offence, or maybe I should now elevate to a loss of a limb or something.
As I have said though, this has been helpful and advice appreciated.
As I have said though, this has been helpful and advice appreciated.
Monsterlime said:
To a degree, I think it was more the tone of some answers, than the answer itself. And I probably missed a smiley off the end of that, so another flogging offence, or maybe I should now elevate to a loss of a limb or something.
As I have said though, this has been helpful and advice appreciated.
Genuinely- seriously consider contracting. X2 the money, 1/4 of the hassle. As I have said though, this has been helpful and advice appreciated.
Contracting isn't some golden ticket to buying a big house. People who think this are in for a shock when things don't go smoothly.
It's danger money.
You can get canned without a single days notice if someone doesn't like you. You have to be prepared for 6 months of no work. You get pigeon holed. You need to suck up working with permie stakeholders that know FA, but treat you like a temp. You can be scapegoated very quickly if a project isn't delivered on time and canned.
I went from a top consultancy to working in contracting in Banking, and I've seen things you won't believe.
It's danger money.
You can get canned without a single days notice if someone doesn't like you. You have to be prepared for 6 months of no work. You get pigeon holed. You need to suck up working with permie stakeholders that know FA, but treat you like a temp. You can be scapegoated very quickly if a project isn't delivered on time and canned.
I went from a top consultancy to working in contracting in Banking, and I've seen things you won't believe.
Jiebo said:
Contracting isn't some golden ticket to buying a big house. People who think this are in for a shock when things don't go smoothly.
It's danger money.
You can get canned without a single days notice if someone doesn't like you. You have to be prepared for 6 months of no work. You get pigeon holed. You need to suck up working with permie stakeholders that know FA, but treat you like a temp. You can be scapegoated very quickly if a project isn't delivered on time and canned.
I went from a top consultancy to working in contracting in Banking, and I've seen things you won't believe.
Sorry if that's been your experience. I've been at it three years and it's been great. It's danger money.
You can get canned without a single days notice if someone doesn't like you. You have to be prepared for 6 months of no work. You get pigeon holed. You need to suck up working with permie stakeholders that know FA, but treat you like a temp. You can be scapegoated very quickly if a project isn't delivered on time and canned.
I went from a top consultancy to working in contracting in Banking, and I've seen things you won't believe.
Maybe contracting isnt for you?
Edited by Deep Thought on Monday 25th June 22:16
MagicalTrevor said:
Contracting for 5 years as an Oracle (and recently MySQL) DBA and it’s the best thing I ever did.
I would have thought for an experienced DBA like yourself and the O/P, contracting would be a no brainer.I used to be an Oracle DBA for about 10 years or so for BT and then Santander. Got tired of it but in hindsight wish i'd stayed with it.
I think the last version i have exposure to is 10g.
Jiebo said:
Deep Thought said:
Sorry if that's been your experience. I've been at it three years and it's been great.
Maybe contracting isnt for you?
Wow, a whole thee years? well that certainly makes your input valuable to this discussionMaybe contracting isnt for you?
Edited by Deep Thought on Monday 25th June 22:16
I would have thought that would make it more relevant to the O/P given its a relatively recent move in to contracting but what would i know eh?
But the things you''ve seen...
Edited by Deep Thought on Monday 25th June 23:40
Gassing Station | Jobs & Employment Matters | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff