Trials of Finding New Job

[Xhenceval]

egor110 said:

What about lowering your aspirations as to what your applying for ?

For myself, i've chased after some jobs that would be a £40-50k+ reduction in what i have earned for many years. For most, they simply see that i am too qualified/experienced. Also, knowing what i have done, the responsibility i have had and what competence i have, it would absolutely do my head in. I've been a head of function (large professional team within a very highly respected design/engineering/manufacturing multinational) and also a Director in the same field. Going back to say a project engineer or manager on a small project...my tolerance levels would be tested to say the least. Also, how do i then get myself 'back up the ladder'? The local Aldi is advertising jobs for just over £10 an hour. No qualifications needed. Can i get a refund on my postgrads and professional qualifications? The short of it is the sector i have been so familiar with for the last 25 years is depressed compounded by a (now) much flatter hierarchical structure with far fewer senior personnel.

Rather than being engrossed in committing the long hours i did to the daily/weekly/monthly work i was achieving, i should have expended some of that time developing/gaining qualifications and experience in other disciplines/sectors. SO many data/transformation/IT etc etc roles being advertised!

[Xhenceval]

chunder27 said:

most soulless of tasks

It goes deeper than that, one finds themself spiralling downwards into desperation, anger, frustration. To the extent that some days even looking at a jobsite sets off all those emotions. Good to have a fall back interest to take ones mind off it and get far away from time to time. Beer, sun and the garden also becomes an attractive proposition from about this time of year.

Oh, and most of your mates think you do fk all and it is fine to constantly phone, pop around, distract etc!

[chunder27]

To be honest I have tried applying too for minor jobs, but the issue there is too much contracting in the past and they think you will walk ASAP, which may be true. it is something I am finding more and more, nothing I can do about it, some people don't like the fact I have moved about a lot, fair enough.

And of course, the less skilled, the more people apply.

I give you one example, I interviewed at a machine shop a few weeks ago, minor job, bout 25k a year.

Was not machining, more fettling and doing some basic work post machine processes, tapping, heli-coiling etc, all stuff I have done in the past, which is fine, am not machine qualified anyway.

Sat there, bloke tells me after 5 sentences he already has a very well qualified candidate.

What I should have done is say, "alright then this is a waste of my f****** time then I will ps off and leave you alone"

But instead I tried to convince him I was able to still do this. I almost admired him, at least I knew when i walked out of there I wasn't going to get the stty job.

Obviously I did not get the job.

[m_cozzy]

Depressing reading. Knocking on for 50 and my current IT role pays far more than I feel I'm worth. I will never be able to match this or even get near when the inevitable redundancy comes.
Fortunately im mortgage & child free with plenty of saving.
Best of luck to all those looking. It seems the job market has changed drastically since I last looked 10 + years ago.

[egor110]

Xhenceval said:

egor110 said:

What about lowering your aspirations as to what your applying for ?

For myself, i've chased after some jobs that would be a £40-50k+ reduction in what i have earned for many years. For most, they simply see that i am too qualified/experienced. Also, knowing what i have done, the responsibility i have had and what competence i have, it would absolutely do my head in. I've been a head of function (large professional team within a very highly respected design/engineering/manufacturing multinational) and also a Director in the same field. Going back to say a project engineer or manager on a small project...my tolerance levels would be tested to say the least. Also, how do i then get myself 'back up the ladder'? The local Aldi is advertising jobs for just over £10 an hour. No qualifications needed. Can i get a refund on my postgrads and professional qualifications? The short of it is the sector i have been so familiar with for the last 25 years is depressed compounded by a (now) much flatter hierarchical structure with far fewer senior personnel.

Rather than being engrossed in committing the long hours i did to the daily/weekly/monthly work i was achieving, i should have expended some of that time developing/gaining qualifications and experience in other disciplines/sectors. SO many data/transformation/IT etc etc roles being advertised!

What you did previously though , if those jobs are no longer available surely the only option is to change / adapt .

I work with a chap who was a rsm in the marines and he’s had a hell of a journey from having rank and authority to just being a manager of staff who couldn’t give a monkeys about his past .

[monkfish1]

I often dip into this thread out of interest and always come away slightly bemused.

Im not looking for a job, as i run my own company, but over the last 15 years, by far and away our biggest struggle was finding good people. Ultimately it also proved the demise of our workshop business. Despite being profitable, ultimately we had to close because we simply could not find the people to make it work. The only way to keep it working was huge personal sacrifice in terms of hours and doing the jobs myself, which was unsustainable.

Hence my comment on being bemused. A thread full of people who cant find work, but people llike me cant find the people. Almost everyone i know who runs a business has the same issues to some degree or other.

Sadly i offer no answers, merely an observation!

I'm really not looking forward to the time (which will inevitably arrive, probably soon) where i need to fill roles.

[PomBstard]

Xhenceval said:

egor110 said:

What about lowering your aspirations as to what your applying for ?

For myself, i've chased after some jobs that would be a £40-50k+ reduction in what i have earned for many years. For most, they simply see that i am too qualified/experienced. Also, knowing what i have done, the responsibility i have had and what competence i have, it would absolutely do my head in. I've been a head of function (large professional team within a very highly respected design/engineering/manufacturing multinational) and also a Director in the same field. Going back to say a project engineer or manager on a small project...my tolerance levels would be tested to say the least. Also, how do i then get myself 'back up the ladder'? The local Aldi is advertising jobs for just over £10 an hour. No qualifications needed. Can i get a refund on my postgrads and professional qualifications? The short of it is the sector i have been so familiar with for the last 25 years is depressed compounded by a (now) much flatter hierarchical structure with far fewer senior personnel.

Rather than being engrossed in committing the long hours i did to the daily/weekly/monthly work i was achieving, i should have expended some of that time developing/gaining qualifications and experience in other disciplines/sectors. SO many data/transformation/IT etc etc roles being advertised!

I know you’ve said you’ve tried before and it doesn’t work for you, but in my field of work, that experience, at your age, screams “Consultant!” I would also say that if you’ve worked at that level, then you probably do have what it takes to set up as a one-man-band and subcontract. Don’t aim to fill a position, aim to do some work, if that makes sense.

But that’s only my view from a different industry. I’m in a similar boat, albeit not so long between drinks.

[vindaloo79]

Just thought I'd mention as it may not have crossed the minds of some. I am using Cousera and Udemy to cross train (though related to experience) at moment. It's cheap as chips and seems pretty good so far.

I'm learning Docker and then Kubernetes, I have used both in a recent gig and just about scraped by, took some long long days. It's nice to now understand more about what I was doing. To be honest I am just enjoying the learning process, though it doesn't pay so well

A mate used Udemy to learn lots of dev ops AWS skills and then passed the certification a week or so after finishing. He then landed a nice consultancy gig from the back of it in last two months. He is about to leave abruptly to take a contract. Will likely remove all traces of this gap fill role from his CV once acquired. I think this kind of behaviour is what makes getting perm jobs tricky for some, it will be a waste of money for the hiring firm all that time recruiting and upskilling him.

[Condi]

Xhenceval said:

Condi said:

Wee musing....

Did you take it?

I have had both experiences in the past. A large, well respected, multinational was keen to build their contingent, therefore, had built a slick recruitment process with their inhouse (but overseas) recruitment partner that involved much participation personnel within the business unit. Once i joined, i used that process to recruit and was also involved in the weekly/monthly 2-way discussions/sessions to feedback (on process and candidates) and improve the service further. Much pressure was placed internally to identify, review, feedback etc through the recruitment stages. Quite refreshing to see.

Sorry, not yet. Probably will, but there are some details to iron out.

But generally impressed so far.

[lyonspride]

egor110 said:

What you did previously though , if those jobs are no longer available surely the only option is to change / adapt .

I work with a chap who was a rsm in the marines and he’s had a hell of a journey from having rank and authority to just being a manager of staff who couldn’t give a monkeys about his past .

Unfortunately, the only reason a company hires ex-forces into management (unless they've had other roles between), is if they really don't trust their employees and think that they need some army style discipline. Not trusting your employees is a fast track to de-motivation and loss of productivity, and it's something that becomes a vicious circle of mistrust.

Any ex-forces going into that situation is going to have a very hard time of it, expected to be strict but knowing full well that doing so will only make things worse, because they understand the need for comradery and that's not compatible with a company that promotes an environment where people won't help each other. They usually stay a few years and then look for something else.

I work for one at the moment (ex marines), he'd been there 3 months when he hired me, and it took a while for us both to see just how paranoid the directors are and how little they trust everyone who works for them. Ex-forces manager is seriously pissed off and I doubt he'll stay another 12 months.

[egor110]

Trouble is army style discipline doesn’t work in the real world , where workers aren’t on call 247 , where they have trade unions etc .

[lyonspride]

egor110 said:

Trouble is army style discipline doesn’t work in the real world , where workers aren’t on call 247 , where they have trade unions etc .

Yep, exactly..... In the real world people won't take that sort of sh*t, BUT it's the top management who employ them for this reason, they actually have no idea of what the armed forces are like, beyond what they see in movies, they don't understand the comradery that's a vital part of how the the forces get stuff done.
In the real world management try to break apart any comradery in the workplace, by setting people off against eachother, making them compete with each other, promoting people for screwing over their colleagues, etc, etc. In the workplace comradery is a threat.
Ex-forces guys know this, they know that discipline alone is not enough.

[fridaypassion]

monkfish1 said:

I often dip into this thread out of interest and always come away slightly bemused.

Im not looking for a job, as i run my own company, but over the last 15 years, by far and away our biggest struggle was finding good people. Ultimately it also proved the demise of our workshop business. Despite being profitable, ultimately we had to close because we simply could not find the people to make it work. The only way to keep it working was huge personal sacrifice in terms of hours and doing the jobs myself, which was unsustainable.

Hence my comment on being bemused. A thread full of people who cant find work, but people llike me cant find the people. Almost everyone i know who runs a business has the same issues to some degree or other.

Sadly i offer no answers, merely an observation!

I'm really not looking forward to the time (which will inevitably arrive, probably soon) where i need to fill roles.

People chase the wrong careers. It started in the mid 90s when I left school the push to get everyone into university regardless if they were even academic was relentless. Personally I really enjoyed school I did well but I was bursting to get earning and didn't fancy 5 years of being skint so I went straight to work.

Why it's this relevant? Well One key thing I've done numerous times in my early working life was apply for graduate jobs despite having no degree. Because I'd been out in the real world I had skills and confidence that a fresh graduate just didn't have so I got 2 or 3 roles where I actually had graduates working under me.

These days because the internet has kind of made it more difficult to find work I would never survive a paper sift or algorithm. At least one of my graduate roles I was pushed to interview actively by a recruitment agency who used actual skills to match me to an employer. I was the last person in after a day of mouth breathing Leeds uni graduates and I wad offered the job on the spot.

Too much information and too many applicants for posts to be assesed properly. No wonder it's hard to match people up.

Another thing I would recommend is career changing. Something I've done 4 times already send I'm only 40. I brute forced one career change by writing letters off to each local company that dealt in that arena got 3 interviews and 2 job offers. Owners and managers are waiting for people that have half a brain and done initiative. If you want a job go out there and take it. Proactivity is the key and if you keep relentlessly hammering away your perseverance will pay off. Clicking a few buttons on a keyboard is a dumb way to look for work I reckon.

Another top tip is to reasses what are well paid jobs and think again if you really do want that desk job.

Some examples that may surprise these are all people I know and what they roughly earn

Electronic secutiry which is what I used to do 40k on the books plus overtime 100k contracting

Groundworking on a building site 65k

Primary teacher 40k get a few courses done head of year 60k

Painter (cars) self employed 100k

Powder coaters my guy easily 80k

Plasterers can earn 80k on the books as and over 100k running a team on new builds

Anything to do with trades these dates you would expect at least 50k

You have to take a hit while training for these types of roles but if you are out of work anyway what's to loose?

[Countdown]

fridaypassion said:

Some examples that may surprise these are all people I know and what they roughly earn

Primary teacher 40k get a few courses done head of year 60k

The 40k would be after several years experience and also working in London. Outside of London they max out at £35k.

Also (as far as Im aware), it's rare for a Primary School to have a Head of Year since they tend to be Single- or at the most Double-form entry. They're not like a secondary school where you will have between 5 and 10 forms in each year.

£60k isn't far off what a Headteacher for a primary school would be earning.

[fridaypassion]

As I say examples of people I know. One family member is a primary head of year (teception and year 1) and earns over 40k got her bosses job after a bad offstead after 2 years outside nqt.

There are some good little numbers in the sector you get on with an academy there are are some cushty little positions. Another family member is 6 figures going about telling other heads what they are doing wrong within an academy group. Still gets the insane holiday allowance too. Pro rata these jobs you can add 10% to these figures too I guess. Neither of these people are overworked or stressed either I should add.

[Pit Pony]

monkfish1 said:

I often dip into this thread out of interest and always come away slightly bemused.

Im not looking for a job, as i run my own company, but over the last 15 years, by far and away our biggest struggle was finding good people. Ultimately it also proved the demise of our workshop business. Despite being profitable, ultimately we had to close because we simply could not find the people to make it work. The only way to keep it working was huge personal sacrifice in terms of hours and doing the jobs myself, which was unsustainable.

Hence my comment on being bemused. A thread full of people who cant find work, but people llike me cant find the people. Almost everyone i know who runs a business has the same issues to some degree or other.

Sadly i offer no answers, merely an observation!

I'm really not looking forward to the time (which will inevitably arrive, probably soon) where i need to fill roles.

The people with the skills exist.
They are not looking to move because the T&,Cs (Salary, pension, hours, etc) are better rhan you are offering.
Try doubling the hourly rate and see if you still struggle.

[Flibble]

fridaypassion said:

As I say examples of people I know. One family member is a primary head of year (teception and year 1) and earns over 40k got her bosses job after a bad offstead after 2 years outside nqt.

There are some good little numbers in the sector you get on with an academy there are are some cushty little positions. Another family member is 6 figures going about telling other heads what they are doing wrong within an academy group. Still gets the insane holiday allowance too. Pro rata these jobs you can add 10% to these figures too I guess. Neither of these people are overworked or stressed either I should add.

You're taking one very unusual case and suggesting people can replicate it easily. That's disingenuous at best.
You're also missing the part where you have to train as a teacher which pays buttons, and then the NQT year, which also pays buttons. And after that 2 years out of NWT, on average a teacher will be nowhere near head of year or 40k.
You might as well say, "just start a business and be immediately massively successful" it's about as useful advice.
Some of your other numbers are definitely on the high side. A plasterer earning 80k needs to be on a day rate of around £300 (or working a lot of days) which is punchy and definitely not what some unknown fella who has just qualified is going to get.

Edited by Flibble on Monday 3rd June 16:53

[Countdown]

fridaypassion said:

Another family member is 6 figures going about telling other heads what they are doing wrong within an academy group. Still gets the insane holiday allowance too. Pro rata these jobs you can add 10% to these figures too I guess. Neither of these people are overworked or stressed either I should add.

That also seems odd. About 12 years ago i used to work for a Consultancy that provided support to Academies that were beings et up. The role that you’re referring to there sounds very much like “Executive Headteacher”. Exec HTs (and pretty much all the SLT in an Academy would NOT be on normal Teacher contracts. The ones where I was involved would normally have 30-35 days annual leave. Still pretty good but not what I would call “Insane”.

There have been various threads about how “stressful” teaching is (or isn’t). Having seen it up close I can say, hand on heart, that I would rather be employed as a Jehovah’s Witness in Afghanistan.

[Pit Pony]

Countdown said:

That also seems odd. About 12 years ago i used to work for a Consultancy that provided support to Academies that were beings et up. The role that you’re referring to there sounds very much like “Executive Headteacher”. Exec HTs (and pretty much all the SLT in an Academy would NOT be on normal Teacher contracts. The ones where I was involved would normally have 30-35 days annual leave. Still pretty good but not what I would call “Insane”.

There have been various threads about how “stressful” teaching is (or isn’t). Having seen it up close I can say, hand on heart, that I would rather be employed as a Jehovah’s Witness in Afghanistan.

My son has just resigned coming up to the end of his first year as an NQT Chemistry Teacher in an all girls academy.
Note that he has a 1st class masters, 3 years ecperience of drug discovery before he decided to go into teaching.
He hates it. Mostly due to management treating all NQTs like st. 8 out of 12 NQTs have resigned. ALL 5 in the science department.
Typical ste.
He has a child who is disriptive.
He deals with it but sends an email to head of science, the childs form tutor and head of year as he was trained to.
Is told in no uncertain terms that he should not contact head of year or form tutor, but keep it within the department.
They have a separate science staff room, which must be stupid.
He has no job to go to but a very suppirtive family and fiancee who have all said "your mentak health is worth more thsn this st."

[Flibble]

Mrs F is a teacher, it's a pretty st job overall, especially if the SLT in the school are a bunch of muppets which is far from uncommon.
The idea that it's a surefire low stress route to £40k+ in a couple of years is starkly at odds with reality. After all if it were, we wouldn't have the teacher shortage we currently do.