Working beyond contracted hours
Discussion
This seems to be a very worrying increasing issue in my opinion. More and more employers these days seem to expect staff to work beyond your contracted hours for no extra pay, time off in lieu or other gain.
In my previous roles before my current one I worked in both public and private sector in IT with varying hours. Not being big headed I was always one of the better performers and just cracked on with the job. Bar the odd occasion when I needed to stay a little later due to a call over running for 30 mins I always finished at my finish time.
I think it's wrong that employees in certain roles feel they need to stay longer to give a good impression. Surely I'm not in the minority that if your contract states 8:00 start and 16:00 finish.. You start at 8 and finish at 4?
I blame this ridiculous wolf of wall street culture.
In my previous roles before my current one I worked in both public and private sector in IT with varying hours. Not being big headed I was always one of the better performers and just cracked on with the job. Bar the odd occasion when I needed to stay a little later due to a call over running for 30 mins I always finished at my finish time.
I think it's wrong that employees in certain roles feel they need to stay longer to give a good impression. Surely I'm not in the minority that if your contract states 8:00 start and 16:00 finish.. You start at 8 and finish at 4?
I blame this ridiculous wolf of wall street culture.
I think for a salaried role it needs a bit of give and take, some roles by nature need more than the basic hours (client time zones etc.) but you need a good employer that recognises what you do and let’s you go for the occasional appointment in “work hours”.
Mine is one, my contracted hours are 7:00-17:00 Monday-Friday but in reality this is 06:40-19:30 Monday to Friday and every other Saturday afternoon....it’s all part of the job
Mine is one, my contracted hours are 7:00-17:00 Monday-Friday but in reality this is 06:40-19:30 Monday to Friday and every other Saturday afternoon....it’s all part of the job
Lots of my friends have worked the odd occasional hour outside of contracted hours over the years, they all see to be the ones that are higher up in the organisations that those the 'clock watch' and do there 9-5 and no more.
Quite a few of those 'clock watchers' have whined about how other people are getting promoted over them (usual those that do the extra hours) and we have told them why, but some wouldnt have any of it, those that listened suddenly started getting more promotions too.
I do it to get noticed (and a f
k tonne load of work) and get seen as one of the people that will put more effort it, stay later, more loyal to the company so the higher managers notice.
Nowadays its expected as Im the project manager so if the project goes tits up, then Im to blame.
Quite a few of those 'clock watchers' have whined about how other people are getting promoted over them (usual those that do the extra hours) and we have told them why, but some wouldnt have any of it, those that listened suddenly started getting more promotions too.
I do it to get noticed (and a f
k tonne load of work) and get seen as one of the people that will put more effort it, stay later, more loyal to the company so the higher managers notice.Nowadays its expected as Im the project manager so if the project goes tits up, then Im to blame.
My wife is a social worker in child protection and it's crazy. Always working late, usually home at about 19:30 due to home visits having to be done after normal working day, with no extra pay. The managers ignore duty of care and the working time directive just doesn't exist.
Her case load is way above national guidelines but when it comes down to it, it's children at the other end and she and her colleagues can't just say 'no, I'm not doing it'.
Meant to have time of in lieu if extra hours worked but there is no time to take them !
Whereas I work shift in an ex nationalised industry and get told off if I work too many hours beyond the nominal wtd and any excess hours are at double time.
Unions these days are totally ineffective, and people are treating it as the norm.
Her case load is way above national guidelines but when it comes down to it, it's children at the other end and she and her colleagues can't just say 'no, I'm not doing it'.
Meant to have time of in lieu if extra hours worked but there is no time to take them !
Whereas I work shift in an ex nationalised industry and get told off if I work too many hours beyond the nominal wtd and any excess hours are at double time.
Unions these days are totally ineffective, and people are treating it as the norm.
kiethton said:
I think for a salaried role it needs a bit of give and take, some roles by nature need more than the basic hours (client time zones etc.) but you need a good employer that recognises what you do and let’s you go for the occasional appointment in “work hours”.
This is the key.I knew a guy who was paid an hourly wage on a clocking in basis. When he moved up to a salaried position, he had numerous times off for dentists, opticians, school plays and goodness knows what else, but yet he had his coat on at 4.55 every day without fail. The place could have been burning down and he would have still left bang on 5pm.
It needs give and take on both sides. It's not something that can be written or explained in a contract very easily, but it should be common sense to both the employee and the employer.
Think it really depends on what your benefits / salary are, the role your in and the type of company you work for.
I do a few extra hours a week in my role but my pay puts my in the top 95% of earners in this country. I don't have to, not sure anyone would bat an eyelid if I did start sticking to 9-5pm and for a while a few years back I did have to do just that on the days my wife was working as I had to do the nursery run mornings and evenings.
I work for a big multinational so very much a small cog in a big wheel hence nobody higher up the ladder is really going to notice my efforts. If I was working for a small start up and getting a decent stock option I'd likely be working my wotsits off to help it succeed provided the work was interesting and challenging. I known a few friends make a lot of money working for these sort of companies as they either float on the stock market or get bought out by a much bigger firm. Probably something for the younger folk though, not sure it would work for me now with a family.
That said we've had a few over the years who work all hours but are generally pretty rubbish at their job, guess they think working long hours can somehow make up for ineptitude. I'd take someone who is good at their job and only does the 9-5 over the latter provided they don't mind stepping up on the odd occasions it's needed.
I do a few extra hours a week in my role but my pay puts my in the top 95% of earners in this country. I don't have to, not sure anyone would bat an eyelid if I did start sticking to 9-5pm and for a while a few years back I did have to do just that on the days my wife was working as I had to do the nursery run mornings and evenings.
I work for a big multinational so very much a small cog in a big wheel hence nobody higher up the ladder is really going to notice my efforts. If I was working for a small start up and getting a decent stock option I'd likely be working my wotsits off to help it succeed provided the work was interesting and challenging. I known a few friends make a lot of money working for these sort of companies as they either float on the stock market or get bought out by a much bigger firm. Probably something for the younger folk though, not sure it would work for me now with a family.
That said we've had a few over the years who work all hours but are generally pretty rubbish at their job, guess they think working long hours can somehow make up for ineptitude. I'd take someone who is good at their job and only does the 9-5 over the latter provided they don't mind stepping up on the odd occasions it's needed.
I'm pretty sure for every job I've had, the contract states the standard working hours, plus a clause about having to work additional hours as and when required. In my field (accounting) this would generally apply to the year end and annual audit, where there is usually a spike in workloads. When I was younger this would be paid as overtime, these days being more senior and on the big bucks 
that means no extra money or time off in lieu, but it just comes with the territory.
Ultimately I'd say the culture of the business has the biggest impact, in the past I've worked for someone who was in before 6am and left about 7pm, and expected everyone in their team to put in a similar level of effort (for no extra money). Whereas my current role is very much Mon-Fri 9 to 5, with the (very) occasional hour of unpaid overtime if something important needs to be done.
But on the other side of the coin, there are people who rock up dead on 9am, then spend the next half hour logging on the computer, making a drink and talking about what was on TV last night. Followed by numerous tea breaks, fag breaks, extended lunch breaks, etc etc, and then at 4.55pm you hear the drawers slamming away as they pack up, coat on and out the door dead on 5pm...
that means no extra money or time off in lieu, but it just comes with the territory.Ultimately I'd say the culture of the business has the biggest impact, in the past I've worked for someone who was in before 6am and left about 7pm, and expected everyone in their team to put in a similar level of effort (for no extra money). Whereas my current role is very much Mon-Fri 9 to 5, with the (very) occasional hour of unpaid overtime if something important needs to be done.
But on the other side of the coin, there are people who rock up dead on 9am, then spend the next half hour logging on the computer, making a drink and talking about what was on TV last night. Followed by numerous tea breaks, fag breaks, extended lunch breaks, etc etc, and then at 4.55pm you hear the drawers slamming away as they pack up, coat on and out the door dead on 5pm...
kiethton said:
...but you need a good employer that recognises what you do and let’s you go for the occasional appointment in “work hours”.
Mine is one, my contracted hours are 7:00-17:00 Monday-Friday but in reality this is 06:40-19:30 Monday to Friday and every other Saturday afternoon....it’s all part of the job
How is "letting you go for the occasional appointment in work hours" in any way recompense for working an extra 2hr 50m every day? Your employer is taking the piss.Mine is one, my contracted hours are 7:00-17:00 Monday-Friday but in reality this is 06:40-19:30 Monday to Friday and every other Saturday afternoon....it’s all part of the job
RicksAlfas said:
It needs give and take on both sides. It's not something that can be written or explained in a contract very easily, but it should be common sense to both the employee and the employer.
Quite. I always give people working for me 2 options. 1) We do hours by the book..... & it will be strictly by the book or 2) We are both flexible..... you do the extra hours when needed....I don't notice an early finish on a Friday or for your kids play. One is the adult approach that works for both of us.... the other well it's up to you to decide.Give and take, I come in early every day to the extent that sometimes I will have done 2 hours of working by the time we officially "open".
But flipside I leave virtually bang on 5:30, so yes I do extra.
But recently with the nature of our business being services, I hate the fact that some will email at the weekend, and after much reading and writing about mental health it was rather eye opening that some people, in fact a majority of people, that have their phone linked with email outside of contractual hours, mostly at weekends will suffer some form of mental stress upon receiving that notification. The impact not being seen by the sending party because they do not see them.
This for me was personally shown this week when I was on my first proper holiday abroad this week, I had no work emails on my phone, but a colleague reached out via a personal messaging service to ask me to help with something then moaned about it not being "handed over", the issue is I am the only one with access to the platform in question (and technically trained to use). It did not take long to sort, but for a few hours during my own personal holiday there was additional stress there which in my view should not have occurred.
It has further come up in my quarterly reviews in regards to specific aspects of ideas at the weekend etc. that I used to send on, but I just note them down now (following my reading around this subject area) and leave them until working hours to explore further, my MD was not exactly "happy" with me having *no* immediate access to email outside of contractual hours...
But as I said the weekend (and holiday) is mine to spend to how I want to spend it, my work email is not a *priority* at that time and it is completely "fair" to not be "expected" to have work emails on my own *personal* phone. If you want emails on a mobile phone then provide a company phone. Sorry.
Technology has brought this very dangerous *grey* zone where people are failing to sleep and turn off properly (and I agree other more personal usage of devices during sleep time), but employers should start providing knowledge to employees to not be so attached to devices and in essence be free otherwise the issue just goes on and on and is damaging future generations already, workplaces should expect employees to disconnect within reason outside of contractual hours for their employees own welfare.
Ultimately, what I am saying is that it is good to disconnect from the "technological information highway" and think of others *prior* to sending emails when they are on holiday.
But flipside I leave virtually bang on 5:30, so yes I do extra.
But recently with the nature of our business being services, I hate the fact that some will email at the weekend, and after much reading and writing about mental health it was rather eye opening that some people, in fact a majority of people, that have their phone linked with email outside of contractual hours, mostly at weekends will suffer some form of mental stress upon receiving that notification. The impact not being seen by the sending party because they do not see them.
This for me was personally shown this week when I was on my first proper holiday abroad this week, I had no work emails on my phone, but a colleague reached out via a personal messaging service to ask me to help with something then moaned about it not being "handed over", the issue is I am the only one with access to the platform in question (and technically trained to use). It did not take long to sort, but for a few hours during my own personal holiday there was additional stress there which in my view should not have occurred.
It has further come up in my quarterly reviews in regards to specific aspects of ideas at the weekend etc. that I used to send on, but I just note them down now (following my reading around this subject area) and leave them until working hours to explore further, my MD was not exactly "happy" with me having *no* immediate access to email outside of contractual hours...
But as I said the weekend (and holiday) is mine to spend to how I want to spend it, my work email is not a *priority* at that time and it is completely "fair" to not be "expected" to have work emails on my own *personal* phone. If you want emails on a mobile phone then provide a company phone. Sorry.
Technology has brought this very dangerous *grey* zone where people are failing to sleep and turn off properly (and I agree other more personal usage of devices during sleep time), but employers should start providing knowledge to employees to not be so attached to devices and in essence be free otherwise the issue just goes on and on and is damaging future generations already, workplaces should expect employees to disconnect within reason outside of contractual hours for their employees own welfare.
Ultimately, what I am saying is that it is good to disconnect from the "technological information highway" and think of others *prior* to sending emails when they are on holiday.
Edited by Ninja59 on Friday 19th October 14:05
Edited by Ninja59 on Friday 19th October 14:08
There’s nothing wrong to stay behind to finish something off, or if something is urgent or there’s been an outage that needs resolving, but to be expected to work significantly above your hours to look better for promotions etc, you are having your pants pulled down. Basically you are being promoted as you are a mug who they can pile more on to for a nominal pay increase.
You should be more than capable of demostrating your ability within your contracted hours. If you are good at your job then that should be what counts.
You should be more than capable of demostrating your ability within your contracted hours. If you are good at your job then that should be what counts.
I'm of the opinion that there's always a bit of give an take, I expect i'm normally in work 15mins early and leave 15 min late as do a lot of others in my office. Often if I'm out at meetings or on site I'll be late home.
However I've increasingly noticed that my boss feels differently and being 5 minutes late because of traffic or lunch taking 5 minutes too long is an issue, I assume he also wants us to sod of home on the dot of 5:30 as that's whats starting to happen.
Last week he had a pop at a guy who made coffee too soon after lunch despite him having worked though his lunch, And then wonders why its difficult to employ people.
However I've increasingly noticed that my boss feels differently and being 5 minutes late because of traffic or lunch taking 5 minutes too long is an issue, I assume he also wants us to sod of home on the dot of 5:30 as that's whats starting to happen.
Last week he had a pop at a guy who made coffee too soon after lunch despite him having worked though his lunch, And then wonders why its difficult to employ people.
I try and make it very clear to my employees and colleagues that I don't want anyone working hours they are not paid for. It's insidious in my industry and there's absolutely no reason for it. Nobody's getting extra work done, or doing better work because of it. They are just more tired.
Olivera said:
kiethton said:
...but you need a good employer that recognises what you do and let’s you go for the occasional appointment in “work hours”.
Mine is one, my contracted hours are 7:00-17:00 Monday-Friday but in reality this is 06:40-19:30 Monday to Friday and every other Saturday afternoon....it’s all part of the job
How is "letting you go for the occasional appointment in work hours" in any way recompense for working an extra 2hr 50m every day? Your employer is taking the piss.Mine is one, my contracted hours are 7:00-17:00 Monday-Friday but in reality this is 06:40-19:30 Monday to Friday and every other Saturday afternoon....it’s all part of the job
My hours are far better than most others, especially at my level (SA/VP)
SteBrown91 said:
There’s nothing wrong to stay behind to finish something off, or if something is urgent or there’s been an outage that needs resolving, but to be expected to work significantly above your hours to look better for promotions etc, you are having your pants pulled down. Basically you are being promoted as you are a mug who they can pile more on to for a nominal pay increase.
You should be more than capable of demostrating your ability within your contracted hours. If you are good at your job then that should be what counts.
Not sure why you would think Im a mug for getting promotions to get to the position Im at now, they might pile more work on me, but I decide who I delegate that work to now instead of being stuck with it by my boss. So technically Im only doing more work in people management and cracking the whip to make sure the work is completed on time.You should be more than capable of demostrating your ability within your contracted hours. If you are good at your job then that should be what counts.
I dont believe moving up a level to crap on people instead of being crapped upon is a bad thing?
Ninja59 said:
Technology has brought this very dangerous *grey* zone where people are failing to sleep and turn off properly (and I agree other more personal usage of devices during sleep time), but employers should start providing knowledge to employees to not be so attached to devices and in essence be free otherwise the issue just goes on and on and is damaging future generations already, workplaces should expect employees to disconnect within reason outside of contractual hours for their employees own welfare.
I've recently started a new job and e-mail is only available on company owned hardware. Some higher management have company phones with access, but for most of us it's laptop only, and that only leaves the office if I'm planning on doing some work from home (which I don't do as all my work is on a different network).After several years at a company where I could get my e-mail on my own phone it feels a bit strange. I was on a course last week and had to remember to forward all the joining instruction info to my personal e-mail before I left
There was a story in the news recently about a big American company who'd brought in a policy that when on holiday your out of office had to be set to delete the e-mail and auto-reply saying it had had been deleted and either resend when you're back on in, or give contact details for someone else.
I don't agree with any of the above to be honest unless you run your own business. Why give all this extra time for nothing just for the bosses to earn more money. It's not far off slave labor.
Family/personal time is always more important than a business... especially a business you don't own.
Family/personal time is always more important than a business... especially a business you don't own.
HantsRat said:
I don't agree with any of the above to be honest unless you run your own business. Why give all this extra time for nothing just for the bosses to earn more money. It's not far off slave labor.
Family/personal time is always more important than a business... especially a business you don't own.
Each to their own, but personally if everyone "worked to rule" and didn't put in extra hours as and when required then a lot of things wouldn't get done. Fair enough if you're on a low salary/minimum wage, but if someone's on £40k/£50k/£60k+ then a few extra hours is not unreasonable.Family/personal time is always more important than a business... especially a business you don't own.
My previous boss (mentioned earlier in this thread) would regularly do 12hr+ days, but as a Financial Controller he would have probably been on around £70-80k. Yes, I guess he could have taken a step down and worked on Purchase Ledger, but I imagine the extra £50k a year made those extra hours worthwhile
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