Working beyond contracted hours
Discussion
Tyre Smoke said:
I think everyone needs to be a bit flexible these days.
I think I'd struggle in a job with fixed hours. A quick look at my timesheets and the only week where I booked my contracted 38 hours was the week I was on leave. Flexitime's great, I had a 45 hour week last month, and this week will be about 25 hours.Du1point8 said:
you are naming jobs which are physical and you can only do X hours and be useful... doing office related work like lawyers/PM/IT you can really work longer and still be able to do it without someone dying from a lack of concentration, as all work is checked over by another to eliminate mistakes, not something you can do as ATC and have someone check a split second decision to allow a plane to land at X when it should have been Y without the chance of loss of life.
Fatigue in those roles may not cause fatal errors but mistakes made by fatigued people which are then checked by other fatigued people surely have a far greater chance of going undetected and potentially costing a s
t load of money.StevieBee said:
Key here is 'bad employers'. And yes, bad employers will discriminate on this basis and many others besides.
The point is that unless there's a stipulation in the contract, you can't fire or even discriminate against someone for them doing exactly what they have been contracted to do.
Of course you can. Why would you possibly think that you cannot?The point is that unless there's a stipulation in the contract, you can't fire or even discriminate against someone for them doing exactly what they have been contracted to do.
Under two years you can fire for any (non protected) reason or for no reason at all, and beyond that you absolutely could promote those who out in the extra hours.
Jambo85 said:
Flexitime would be fantastic. On one hand I'm annoyed my employer doesn't offer it but on the other I can't see how they could as everyone would be calling it a week by Thursday lunchtime, every week.
You just make a part of each day 'core time'. Everybody is expected to be at their place of work between, say, 10am - 2pm (or whatever suits the employer).Jambo85 said:
Flexitime would be fantastic. On one hand I'm annoyed my employer doesn't offer it but on the other I can't see how they could as everyone would be calling it a week by Thursday lunchtime, every week.
If you control the flexitime from a process perspective then no they wouldn't, we have flexi-time, you can start and finish when you want (between 07:00 and 19:00), but have to do a min of 6 hours per day (5.25 + lunch), or a min of 4on a Friday.Gives all the flexibility you need and hours can't be rolled over into the next week, those at certain grades can bank up to 1 weeks extra holiday per year and / or get paid for their additional hours over 35 per week.
Jambo85 said:
Flexitime would be fantastic. On one hand I'm annoyed my employer doesn't offer it but on the other I can't see how they could as everyone would be calling it a week by Thursday lunchtime, every week.
Very easy in practise. You simply have a cover rota (ie flexitime applies but the office needs to be covered between 9-5. Everybody is allocated 1 day to cover per week.) Effectively this means that there is only going to be one day when you have to be in 9-5 and the other days you can come and go as you choose. people much prefer this to the alternative of having to be in everyday between 9 and 5.Lord.Vader said:
Jambo85 said:
Flexitime would be fantastic. On one hand I'm annoyed my employer doesn't offer it but on the other I can't see how they could as everyone would be calling it a week by Thursday lunchtime, every week.
If you control the flexitime from a process perspective then no they wouldn't, we have flexi-time, you can start and finish when you want (between 07:00 and 19:00), but have to do a min of 6 hours per day (5.25 + lunch), or a min of 4on a Friday.Gives all the flexibility you need and hours can't be rolled over into the next week, those at certain grades can bank up to 1 weeks extra holiday per year and / or get paid for their additional hours over 35 per week.
I'm aware of a few firms operating a 9 day fortnight so they obviously allow accumulation of hours over a two week period at least. I think they also have guidance stating no non-emergency meetings on Fridays.
Flexi-time discriminates against single males, there was a court case a couple of years back which ruled that it was discriminatory to men, the guy had a kid and wanted flexitime so they ruled in his favour.
In my twenties I was working in a smallish office for a larger firm and found that the youngsters couldn't take time off at say half term and would always have to work bank holidays as those with families had preferential treatment, we moved to a online holiday/absence booker so for New Years once the clock counted down to midnight (I was depressed at that time so was indoors by myself) I booked all my leave for the year ahead which caused much resentment in the office when the others came back to work but the rules from above were that it was first come first served.
I've changed roles at my current place of work from a hands on where I had to be in for 8am each day or others would be inconvenienced to a behind the scenes one where I can work remotely, I don't know if I could face going back now (my commute was into London).
I have trouble sleeping so I'll often reply to emails from 2- 4am, dunno what others think of that tbh.
In my twenties I was working in a smallish office for a larger firm and found that the youngsters couldn't take time off at say half term and would always have to work bank holidays as those with families had preferential treatment, we moved to a online holiday/absence booker so for New Years once the clock counted down to midnight (I was depressed at that time so was indoors by myself) I booked all my leave for the year ahead which caused much resentment in the office when the others came back to work but the rules from above were that it was first come first served.
I've changed roles at my current place of work from a hands on where I had to be in for 8am each day or others would be inconvenienced to a behind the scenes one where I can work remotely, I don't know if I could face going back now (my commute was into London).
I have trouble sleeping so I'll often reply to emails from 2- 4am, dunno what others think of that tbh.
Edited by untakenname on Thursday 8th November 14:46
Jambo85 said:
I'm aware of a few firms operating a 9 day fortnight so they obviously allow accumulation of hours over a two week period at least. I think they also have guidance stating no non-emergency meetings on Fridays.
When I work in our UK office we work flexi-time & 9-day fortnight. Everybody has the same Friday off so the issue of meetings doesn't arise.With respect to flexi-time it's more a case of you must be in between the core hours of 9-4 Mon-Thurs (9-3 on the off Friday) & must do 9hrs each day Mon-Thurs, 8hrs Friday.
untakenname said:
Flexi-time discriminates against single males, there was a court case a couple of years back which ruled that it was discriminatory to men, the guy had a kid and wanted flexitime so they ruled in his favour.
How does it do that??Edited by untakenname on Thursday 8th November 14:46
Before the law was changed in 2014 employers were only obliged to consider flexi-time for those with children under 16 so as a young person with no dependants you were discriminated against.
The law has changed but companies attitudes sadly haven't, especially when it comes to males https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41306954
The law has changed but companies attitudes sadly haven't, especially when it comes to males https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41306954
untakenname said:
Before the law was changed in 2014 employers were only obliged to consider flexi-time for those with children under 16 so as a young person with no dependants you were discriminated against.
The law has changed but companies attitudes sadly haven't, especially when it comes to males https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41306954
Yup the amount of sad faces and fThe law has changed but companies attitudes sadly haven't, especially when it comes to males https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41306954
king guilt trips people would try and pull when it was xmas and new year as they had kids was unreal.When I first was in the IT industry we had to support Xmas or New Year unless you had booked it off (First come first served basis), being the new person I did both to help out those with kids the first year.
The 2nd year I wanted one or the other off and the same 2 people did the old... 'you dont have kids', 'you have no one to spend it with, so I should get it'... So much bullying and s
t talk to me it was unreal, Then it came to me doing xmas and 2nd line for the other and the fker rang in sick and so I had to cover 1st line, effectively doing both again with them 2nd line (do fk all).Back then I did very little at new year but took it off to the b
hing and whining of the other person, so as soon as we could book the holidays, I booked both of them off for year 3... I took great pleasure in telling them (so now one is on Xmas and the other on NY) and they tried to get me wrote up on needing an attitude adjustment for not being a team player.Ever since then at xmas and new year, Im the only thing that matters (me and OH, etc), no more helping people out like that due to 2 selfish f
ks very early in my career.Jambo85 said:
Lord.Vader said:
Jambo85 said:
Flexitime would be fantastic. On one hand I'm annoyed my employer doesn't offer it but on the other I can't see how they could as everyone would be calling it a week by Thursday lunchtime, every week.
If you control the flexitime from a process perspective then no they wouldn't, we have flexi-time, you can start and finish when you want (between 07:00 and 19:00), but have to do a min of 6 hours per day (5.25 + lunch), or a min of 4on a Friday.Gives all the flexibility you need and hours can't be rolled over into the next week, those at certain grades can bank up to 1 weeks extra holiday per year and / or get paid for their additional hours over 35 per week.
I'm aware of a few firms operating a 9 day fortnight so they obviously allow accumulation of hours over a two week period at least. I think they also have guidance stating no non-emergency meetings on Fridays.
Honestly, you do what needs to be done, I don't get paid OT / extra hours or whatever but most do so some will stay or some will ask to re-arrange, but bearing in mind out contracted hours are 07:45 - 11:45 on a Friday it rarely happens, even our French and German colleagues respect the fact we finish at 11:45 and generally even the senior guys are gone by 14:00.
Less than 24 hours notice, unless it is a critical topic / immediate impact / emergency I would decline anyway
that is just poor planning.re to those above wo suggest someone work 12 hours per day is a better employee than one who works 8-4, no discussion around output and efficiency? Your comments are exactly what is wrong in British Industry and the blocker to moving to a more flexible work-life balance.
I know plenty of people who have to work over their hours because they are slow, in-efficient or not 100% competent, others box all their work off and can leave as and when they please or ask for additional work > hours in the office is not indicative of output, efficiency, commitment or quality!
We should be output focused, not time at desk; part of our company has just switched to this approach and removed clocking in / out (this is not required at certain grades on the continent anyway but in the UK you have to be Senior+ to be exempt).
Lord.Vader said:
No idea, I leave at 11:00 - 12:00 on a Friday!
Honestly, you do what needs to be done, I don't get paid OT / extra hours or whatever but most do so some will stay or some will ask to re-arrange, but bearing in mind out contracted hours are 07:45 - 11:45 on a Friday it rarely happens, even our French and German colleagues respect the fact we finish at 11:45 and generally even the senior guys are gone by 14:00.
Less than 24 hours notice, unless it is a critical topic / immediate impact / emergency I would decline anyway that is just poor planning.
re to those above wo suggest someone work 12 hours per day is a better employee than one who works 8-4, no discussion around output and efficiency? Your comments are exactly what is wrong in British Industry and the blocker to moving to a more flexible work-life balance.
I know plenty of people who have to work over their hours because they are slow, in-efficient or not 100% competent, others box all their work off and can leave as and when they please or ask for additional work > hours in the office is not indicative of output, efficiency, commitment or quality!
We should be output focused, not time at desk; part of our company has just switched to this approach and removed clocking in / out (this is not required at certain grades on the continent anyway but in the UK you have to be Senior+ to be exempt).
Just in response to the highlighted sentence above. Honestly, you do what needs to be done, I don't get paid OT / extra hours or whatever but most do so some will stay or some will ask to re-arrange, but bearing in mind out contracted hours are 07:45 - 11:45 on a Friday it rarely happens, even our French and German colleagues respect the fact we finish at 11:45 and generally even the senior guys are gone by 14:00.
Less than 24 hours notice, unless it is a critical topic / immediate impact / emergency I would decline anyway
that is just poor planning.re to those above wo suggest someone work 12 hours per day is a better employee than one who works 8-4, no discussion around output and efficiency? Your comments are exactly what is wrong in British Industry and the blocker to moving to a more flexible work-life balance.
I know plenty of people who have to work over their hours because they are slow, in-efficient or not 100% competent, others box all their work off and can leave as and when they please or ask for additional work > hours in the office is not indicative of output, efficiency, commitment or quality!
We should be output focused, not time at desk; part of our company has just switched to this approach and removed clocking in / out (this is not required at certain grades on the continent anyway but in the UK you have to be Senior+ to be exempt).
As I mentioned earlier, I work to billable hours targets. My employer is always going on about working more profitably; doing more work, for more money, in less time, using tech and whatever to cut number of lawyer hours spent. However, when I pointed out to them that measuring value by way of billable hours targets (and calculating salaries and bonuses on the back of them) does not incentivise people to work profitably / smartly / do more work in less hours, it was dismissed. Very old fashioned.
I am currently running at 125% of my target YTD. That means I have averaged an 8.75 hour chargeable day since April, plus non-chargeable work which is probably an hour or two a day. So probably average a 9 to 11 hour a day, every working day, since April (though this is balanced out by some days I finish at 630 and others I finish at 11, and I have worked the occasional weekend). I don't even think I am particularly hard done by!
Edited by Integroo on Monday 12th November 10:49
Integroo said:
probably average a 9 to 11 hour a day, every working day ... I don't even think I am particularly hard done by!
Presumably your contract is for a 55 hour week then? Given that the working time directive states no person can be forced to work over 48 hrs per week I doubt it.
Lord.Vader said:
No idea, I leave at 11:00 - 12:00 on a Friday!
...
Less than 24 hours notice, unless it is a critical topic / immediate impact / emergency I would decline anyway that is just poor planning.
Completely agree - but the people arranging these things at my place of work tend to be the people in charge. And as I don't have flexitime in my contract I don't have a proper justification to decline, regardless of the hours worked up until that point in the week....
Less than 24 hours notice, unless it is a critical topic / immediate impact / emergency I would decline anyway
that is just poor planning.Put another way, I am not clocked in and out, but if I say I'm not available at any point between 0730 and 1800 Mon-Fri it will be challenged, irrespective of notice given and what hours I have worked in the days prior.
I have no problem being available for things which are genuinely critical, but most things are not.
Jambo85 said:
Presumably your contract is for a 55 hour week then?
Given that the working time directive states no person can be forced to work over 48 hrs per week I doubt it.
No, it is for 9 to 5 Monday to Friday plus whatever additional hours are required to fulfil my duties, and I am opted out of the Working Time Directive. Given that the working time directive states no person can be forced to work over 48 hrs per week I doubt it.
Integroo said:
No, it is for 9 to 5 Monday to Friday plus whatever additional hours are required to fulfil my duties, and I am opted out of the Working Time Directive.
I've no idea whether or not it's true but I would guess that quite a sizeable number of people have opted out of the WTD.My employer is very flexible (big blue chip - 60,000 employees). We get paid for output rather than attendance. My boss doesn't care where or when I do the work providing it gets done and nobody comes to him complaining that something has been done late, badly or not at all. Some weeks I'm very busy and (due to most of my project teams being in the US) spend until 11pm or later on the phone, other weeks I'm roaming about trying to find things to do. It all works out in the end.
One thing that I do find a bit stressful about this arrangement is the inability to get away from work (email/phone calls and a expectation of being available).
I've got a lot of holiday days to take (next year I'll have even more due to my long service days being added) but the prospect of taking holiday fills me with unease when I look at my diary and see things that I could miss but will cause a lot of pain if I do..... I then end up checking email and dialling in to the odd meeting while I'm on holiday, simply because not doing so will result in a lot of pain on my return or where there are Regulatory deadlines that appear in my projects that can't be missed etc etc.
Flexibility is nice (flexible hours, work from home etc) but it can sometimes feel like you're on call 24/7
One thing that I do find a bit stressful about this arrangement is the inability to get away from work (email/phone calls and a expectation of being available).
I've got a lot of holiday days to take (next year I'll have even more due to my long service days being added) but the prospect of taking holiday fills me with unease when I look at my diary and see things that I could miss but will cause a lot of pain if I do..... I then end up checking email and dialling in to the odd meeting while I'm on holiday, simply because not doing so will result in a lot of pain on my return or where there are Regulatory deadlines that appear in my projects that can't be missed etc etc.
Flexibility is nice (flexible hours, work from home etc) but it can sometimes feel like you're on call 24/7
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