Working beyond contracted hours
Discussion
HantsRat said:
I don't agree with any of the above to be honest unless you run your own business. Why give all this extra time for nothing just for the bosses to earn more money. It's not far off slave labor.
Family/personal time is always more important than a business... especially a business you don't own.
As I think is abundantly clear from the comments is that this isn't a binary issue.Family/personal time is always more important than a business... especially a business you don't own.
If you work for a giant corporate on a low to mid wage, plodding along nicely then fair dos, an extra 10mins, 30 mins a day or whatever is going to have zero impact on the success of the company and zero impact on your position within it.
If you work in a small business where your boss owns the business then things become a little less clear cut because that business should be important to you because it provides you a living. But your willingness on this is of course dependant upon the boss.
What it isn't is anywhere near to being slave labour. You cannot be sacked for not working over your allowed hours for nothing and being passed over for promotion on the basis of the same is also a no no.
johnwilliams77 said:
Integroo said:
In my industry I work as many hours as are required in order to complete the work that we have on. My regular hours would be 9 - 6/7ish, but 10/11/12 finishes or weekends are not uncommon. I do not get overtime or TOIL. Just one of those things.
ie getting shaftedFittster said:
So what industry is this?
I'm a junior corporate lawyer. I have a chargeable hours target of 1540 a year, which is 7 hours a day. This doesn't take into account the non-chargeable work I need to do each day, eating my lunch, taking comfort breaks, training, tenders, pro bono, team meetings, client pitches etc. etc. So to hit my targets I really need to work 9-10 hours a day.
At top-tier City firms, chargeable hours targets of 1800-2200 are not uncommon. I have heard stories of people doing up to 3000 chargeable hours a year.
Integroo said:
I'm a junior corporate lawyer.
I have a chargeable hours target of 1540 a year, which is 7 hours a day. This doesn't take into account the non-chargeable work I need to do each day, eating my lunch, taking comfort breaks, training, tenders, pro bono, team meetings, client pitches etc. etc. So to hit my targets I really need to work 9-10 hours a day.
At top-tier City firms, chargeable hours targets of 1800-2200 are not uncommon. I have heard stories of people doing up to 3000 chargeable hours a year.
My daughter has the same - IIRC 150 pcm. However there lies the road to becoming Partner.I have a chargeable hours target of 1540 a year, which is 7 hours a day. This doesn't take into account the non-chargeable work I need to do each day, eating my lunch, taking comfort breaks, training, tenders, pro bono, team meetings, client pitches etc. etc. So to hit my targets I really need to work 9-10 hours a day.
At top-tier City firms, chargeable hours targets of 1800-2200 are not uncommon. I have heard stories of people doing up to 3000 chargeable hours a year.
Integroo said:
I'm a junior corporate lawyer.
I have a chargeable hours target of 1540 a year, which is 7 hours a day. This doesn't take into account the non-chargeable work I need to do each day, eating my lunch, taking comfort breaks, training, tenders, pro bono, team meetings, client pitches etc. etc. So to hit my targets I really need to work 9-10 hours a day.
At top-tier City firms, chargeable hours targets of 1800-2200 are not uncommon. I have heard stories of people doing up to 3000 chargeable hours a year.
I did some IT contracting for a top 20 City law firm that included building the time recording/bonus systems, the junior staff had targets of 1950 hours per year.I have a chargeable hours target of 1540 a year, which is 7 hours a day. This doesn't take into account the non-chargeable work I need to do each day, eating my lunch, taking comfort breaks, training, tenders, pro bono, team meetings, client pitches etc. etc. So to hit my targets I really need to work 9-10 hours a day.
At top-tier City firms, chargeable hours targets of 1800-2200 are not uncommon. I have heard stories of people doing up to 3000 chargeable hours a year.
The (restaurant quality) on-site canteen was open until 8pm every day, they had several fully furnished 'Travelodge' bedrooms on site because they'd be pulling all nighters regularly.
QuartzDad said:
I did some IT contracting for a top 20 City law firm that included building the time recording/bonus systems, the junior staff had targets of 1950 hours per year.
The (restaurant quality) on-site canteen was open until 8pm every day, they had several fully furnished 'Travelodge' bedrooms on site because they'd be pulling all nighters regularly.
Indeed. I know someone who works at a US firm in London, who have a particular reputation for being slave drivers. She told me she doesn't have pass for the tube because she gets a taxi home every evening (which you can on the firm if you work past 9pm) and she can't remember the last time she went food shopping as she eats at her desk every evening. The (restaurant quality) on-site canteen was open until 8pm every day, they had several fully furnished 'Travelodge' bedrooms on site because they'd be pulling all nighters regularly.
You are very well rewarded however. I am (currently) based in Scotland so although I am well rewarded as compared to others at my age in Scotland, it isn't in the same league as some of my London based contemporaries!
Edited by Integroo on Tuesday 6th November 15:00
But presumably for some of those people, the overall pay might be great, but the hourly rate isn't much different from someone in a more normal job. I suppose they also have no time to go out and spend money either so it seems like they earn even more 
Personally I'd rather work to live than live to work.
Personally I'd rather work to live than live to work.
RizzoTheRat said:
But presumably for some of those people, the overall pay might be great, but the hourly rate isn't much different from someone in a more normal job. I suppose they also have no time to go out and spend money either so it seems like they earn even more
Personally I'd rather work to live than live to work.
Yes possibly. A 2PQE junior lawyer at a Magic Circle firm probably earns £90-120k a year including bonus. A 2PQE junior lawyer at a top-tier US firm probably earns £120-175k. They probably work anywhere between 2000 and 3000 hours a year. (What does the average person work - 1440 if you go by a 40 hour week 48 weeks a year?). Personally I'd rather work to live than live to work.
If you take a mid-point of 2500, then their hourly rate is anywhere between £36 and £70 an hour at 26-28. Plus living costs of having to be based in London.
You don't do it only for the money though.
Integroo said:
Yes possibly. A 2PQE junior lawyer at a Magic Circle firm probably earns £90-120k a year including bonus. A 2PQE junior lawyer at a top-tier US firm probably earns £120-175k. They probably work anywhere between 2000 and 3000 hours a year. (What does the average person work - 1440 if you go by a 40 hour week 48 weeks a year?).
If you take a mid-point of 2500, then their hourly rate is anywhere between £36 and £70 an hour at 26-28. Plus living costs of having to be based in London.
You don't do it only for the money though.
3000 hours is over 9.5 hours per day 6 days a week with no holiday. I get that they're doing it to reach a point where they can earn big money for more sensible hours, but how many reach that point without burning out?If you take a mid-point of 2500, then their hourly rate is anywhere between £36 and £70 an hour at 26-28. Plus living costs of having to be based in London.
You don't do it only for the money though.
My 38 hour week works out 1626 hours per year, so your mid-pointers are doing half as many hours again. Not my idea of a work life balance, but I guess as you say a lot are doing it because they enjoy it not just for the money.
RizzoTheRat said:
3000 hours is over 9.5 hours per day 6 days a week with no holiday. I get that they're doing it to reach a point where they can earn big money for more sensible hours, but how many reach that point without burning out?
My 38 hour week works out 1626 hours per year, so your mid-pointers are doing half as many hours again. Not my idea of a work life balance, but I guess as you say a lot are doing it because they enjoy it not just for the money.
Yes the small handful that are working 3000 hours a year (or more) are not likely to do that forever. Junior lawyer churn at these firms is huge. Many do it for a few years and then go to a firm with a bit more work life balance, or go in-house, or leave law altogether. People absolutely do it for the money, but also because working for these sorts of firms puts you at the cutting edge of massive deals, and it can be exciting, interesting and very rewarding. (It can also be very very boring. For example this week I am herding a group of fifteen trainees to review e-mails for hours on end). My 38 hour week works out 1626 hours per year, so your mid-pointers are doing half as many hours again. Not my idea of a work life balance, but I guess as you say a lot are doing it because they enjoy it not just for the money.
RizzoTheRat said:
Integroo said:
Yes possibly. A 2PQE junior lawyer at a Magic Circle firm probably earns £90-120k a year including bonus. A 2PQE junior lawyer at a top-tier US firm probably earns £120-175k. They probably work anywhere between 2000 and 3000 hours a year. (What does the average person work - 1440 if you go by a 40 hour week 48 weeks a year?).
If you take a mid-point of 2500, then their hourly rate is anywhere between £36 and £70 an hour at 26-28. Plus living costs of having to be based in London.
You don't do it only for the money though.
3000 hours is over 9.5 hours per day 6 days a week with no holiday. I get that they're doing it to reach a point where they can earn big money for more sensible hours, but how many reach that point without burning out?If you take a mid-point of 2500, then their hourly rate is anywhere between £36 and £70 an hour at 26-28. Plus living costs of having to be based in London.
You don't do it only for the money though.
My 38 hour week works out 1626 hours per year, so your mid-pointers are doing half as many hours again. Not my idea of a work life balance, but I guess as you say a lot are doing it because they enjoy it not just for the money.
Im a PM and if lucky I will be billable for a whole day, but I do spend a lot of time doing housekeeping/meetings/off client work, this I cant bill to the client, so will usually be billable for 1/2 a day.
johnwilliams77 said:
ie getting shafted
Edited to put it a bit differently.Putting in the extra hours is not generally for the here and now, it’s the groundwork for what comes later.
Flatly refusing to do it seems, to me, like some of the lads I knew at school who refused to turn up if they possibly could avoid it.
These were bright lads, but they did the minimum that they could and most now don’t do so well in life.
Those who understood the benefits of work now for advantage later have ended up, in general, doing much better.
Some people will make it to the top even if they clock watch, but it’s rarely a winning strategy.
Edited by James_B on Tuesday 6th November 20:29
James_B said:
Edited to put it a bit differently.
Putting in the extra hours is not generally for the here and now, it’s the groundwork for what comes later.
Flatly refusing to do it seems, to me, like some of the lads I knew at school who refused to turn up if they possibly could avoid it.
These were bright lads, but they did the minimum that they could and most now don’t do so well in life.
Those who understood the benefits of work now for advantage later have ended up, in general, doing much better.
Some people will make it to the top even if they clock watch, but it’s rarely a winning strategy.
I completely agree with you and I regularly do extra during the week, evening emails, very early meetings or weekend work. But I would not do it all the time if it did not come with the flexibility which I get. That's why I call it 'shafting', there is only mention of people give give giving. There is a fine balance.Putting in the extra hours is not generally for the here and now, it’s the groundwork for what comes later.
Flatly refusing to do it seems, to me, like some of the lads I knew at school who refused to turn up if they possibly could avoid it.
These were bright lads, but they did the minimum that they could and most now don’t do so well in life.
Those who understood the benefits of work now for advantage later have ended up, in general, doing much better.
Some people will make it to the top even if they clock watch, but it’s rarely a winning strategy.
Edited by James_B on Tuesday 6th November 20:29
StevieBee said:
. You cannot be sacked for not working over your allowed hours for nothing and being passed over for promotion on the basis of the same is also a no no.
Heh, that’s a very naive point of view. Bad employers absolutely can and do discriminate against people that won’t work extra for nothing. Whether that’s not giving shifts to people on zero hours contracts right up to bullying people out or inventing totally fraudulent redundancies for experienced and senior workers. Integroo said:
I'm a junior corporate lawyer.
I have a chargeable hours target of 1540 a year, which is 7 hours a day. This doesn't take into account the non-chargeable work I need to do each day, eating my lunch, taking comfort breaks, training, tenders, pro bono, team meetings, client pitches etc. etc. So to hit my targets I really need to work 9-10 hours a day.
At top-tier City firms, chargeable hours targets of 1800-2200 are not uncommon. I have heard stories of people doing up to 3000 chargeable hours a year.
Genuine question of curiosity, is it worth it? I have a chargeable hours target of 1540 a year, which is 7 hours a day. This doesn't take into account the non-chargeable work I need to do each day, eating my lunch, taking comfort breaks, training, tenders, pro bono, team meetings, client pitches etc. etc. So to hit my targets I really need to work 9-10 hours a day.
At top-tier City firms, chargeable hours targets of 1800-2200 are not uncommon. I have heard stories of people doing up to 3000 chargeable hours a year.
StevieBee said:
. You cannot be sacked for not working over your allowed hours for nothing and being passed over for promotion on the basis of the same is also a no no.
I'm pretty sure they can promote based on billable hours. In other words if you're working 9-5 and the person next to you is working 7-7 they are well within their rights to promote the other person rather than you. They want to motivate, reward, and retain those people who generate the most money for the organisation. Surely it's both obvious and fair?mcg_ said:
Genuine question of curiosity, is it worth it?
I find my job genuinely interesting and rewarding, I get to travel (a bit) - was off playing five a side in Eastern Europe earlier this year - regularly out for dinner in nice restaurants on the firm, going to interesting events, etc. It has its perks. I am reasonably well paid for my age and I have good career prospects - I would expect my salary to grow fairly quickly. I don't (yet) work at one of the firms that are proper slave drivers - my average 50hr week is nothing compared to 70-90hr weeks - so I can't answer for those that do that. The occasional weeks that I do 60-70hrs I am pretty knackered come the end of it. I know others who do it and hate it. Does depend on the person.
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