Client references prior to an interview / offer?

[rossi1001]

I work in the insurance sector in underwriting. I've been potentially looking at a move and approached a recruiter last week after they posted a job that would be a good fit for me on LinkedIn. After a lengthy phone call (clearly vetting me) they were keen to put me forward as a candidate however they would not tell me the name of the company and also asked for the following ;

[i]Would you kindly send across your CV and two references to support your abilities.

If you can obtain these from senior level brokers then that would be excellent but the more senior the individuals the better from my perspective.[/i]

I've never put myself forward for a role before without knowing the company but I find the references bit really bizarre? Surely you only normally do this at offer stage?

I have clients (brokers) that I trust that I could approach for this but then they would know I was looking to move and what then happens if I don't like the company / job or don't get it etc?

Has anyone ever had this kind of request before? Or gone for a job initially not knowing the company? At the moment I'm very much leaning to a thanks but no thanks on this but would appreciate others views.

[mikef]

What's the best that could happen?

You may get one step closer to a job that quite possibly doesn't exist or that the recruitment agency hasn't been retained to fill

What's the worst that could happen?

They call your management and say "Hey, rossi1001 is going to leave, we've been working on a similar role and have a bunch of great resumes for you"

Do you feel lucky?

[deckster]

"I will supply references to the hiring company after a positive interview outcome" or something like that. Never give references to an agency and never give references before interview.

[T5R+]

If a recruiter does not share client name with me .............zero point in continuing the discussion, Have signed more NDAs (Non Disclosure Agreements) than you can shake a stick at.

The bit over 2 x senior referees - fishing exercise to get mobile/email/etc access to senior people. Any recruiter asking me this....."would be delighted to share without any hesitancy, once we are both serious".

Love and loathe recruiters in equal measure.

[rossi1001]

deckster said:

"I will supply references to the hiring company after a positive interview outcome" or something like that. Never give references to an agency and never give references before interview.

Thanks that's along the lines I was thinking.

T5R+ said:

If a recruiter does not share client name with me .............zero point in continuing the discussion, Have signed more NDAs (Non Disclosure Agreements) than you can shake a stick at.

The bit over 2 x senior referees - fishing exercise to get mobile/email/etc access to senior people. Any recruiter asking me this....."would be delighted to share without any hesitancy, once we are both serious".

Love and loathe recruiters in equal measure.

I am with you on the client name, I mean what if it's somewhere I really don't want to work? If that's the case then submitting my CV will just end up being a waste of the recruiter, their client and my time.

Didn't think of the fishing aspect but suspect you're probably right.

Definitely going up give this a miss, thanks everyone!

[Sir Bagalot]

T5R+ said:

If a recruiter does not share client name with me .............zero point in continuing the discussion, Have signed more NDAs (Non Disclosure Agreements) than you can shake a stick at.

The bit over 2 x senior referees - fishing exercise to get mobile/email/etc access to senior people. Any recruiter asking me this....."would be delighted to share without any hesitancy, once we are both serious".

Love and loathe recruiters in equal measure.

^^This

[Funk]

T5R+ said:

If a recruiter does not share client name with me .............zero point in continuing the discussion, Have signed more NDAs (Non Disclosure Agreements) than you can shake a stick at.

The bit over 2 x senior referees - fishing exercise to get mobile/email/etc access to senior people. Any recruiter asking me this....."would be delighted to share without any hesitancy, once we are both serious".

Love and loathe recruiters in equal measure.

Indeed, that is sneaky, devious stuff.

Have had some terrible experiences with recruiters in the past; if I ever have to move roles in future it would be with great reluctance that I would deal with any recruiters again.

[ToothbrushMan]

I work in the same industry my friend - you are being fed a load of Bull. At least you are still working looking for a move than like me out of work looking to get back in LOL.

Never heard of such "specific" references before in over 20 years and certainty not from customers which is effectively what brokers that you have worked with in the past are - they are customers not past employers (or maybe one or two are if you came from broking into underwriting - but you get my point). It could be your man at the agency doesnt understand the insurance industry relationship triangle but its fairly basic stuff.

If it was me I also would not want to be approaching my brokers having to ask them if they will give me a reference as it can have all sorts of implications not least the chance of word getting out that you might be looking for another job - also will that tee off the brokers if they are heavily reliant on you where you are? Very risky that........... us underwriters dont like risk LOL.

Whats the agency name? Somebody earlier said it sounded like a fishing exercise and I have to wholeheartedly agree - they get you to get them the names of senior people in brokerages that they will then use to target for their services. This agency sounds pretty unprofessional.

I dont think much of the big agencies that deal with this sector (probably because they have so many people on the books these days to give a personal regular service) but I certainly would not expect the likes of IDEX, IPS, Heat, Reed, Harrison Holgate, Lawes, NJR, Cryer Baker, Hays etc to ask you for this. Some names dropped there that you could try if not registered already just dont expect them to roll out the red carpet once you have registered with them.

Of course once at offer stage references are a must. I am not sure whether you can have somebody go into real detail about your abilities as such only to say that "Mike worked here between 2008 and 2017, he was always on time, very presentable, technically very competent, great with clients and a valued member of the team", No more no less IMHO. Sales roles might expand a little on whether you meeting set targets etc....

Also whenever I asked any of my agencies about the names of employers with new jobs "that have just come across their desks" they have never been obstructive about telling me who they are talking about. It also means that nobody looks stupid if you for example was already in talks or had even had an interview already with that particular employer!!! So that's another bad sign if your agency is not telling you. Bit cloak and dagger.


It doesnt sound at all right what they are asking of you.............I dont know if they are actually breaking any recruitment protocols here but if they are asking for this type of reference before an offer has been made and not telling you the name of the employer yet they want you to disclose past employer references then they dont strike me as the sort of agency that cares too much about following protocol anyway.

Feel free to PM if you want to discuss further off the public forum.

Edited by ToothbrushMan on Monday 22 October 10:19

[rossi1001]

ToothbrushMan said:

I work in the same industry my friend - you are being fed a load of Bull. At least you are still working looking for a move than like me out of work looking to get back in LOL.

Never heard of such "specific" references before in over 20 years and certainty not from customers which is effectively what brokers that you have worked with in the past are - they are customers not past employers (or maybe one or two are if you came from broking into underwriting - but you get my point). It could be your man at the agency doesnt understand the insurance industry relationship triangle but its fairly basic stuff.

If it was me I also would not want to be approaching my brokers having to ask them if they will give me a reference as it can have all sorts of implications not least the chance of word getting out that you might be looking for another job - also will that tee off the brokers if they are heavily reliant on you where you are? Very risky that........... us underwriters dont like risk LOL.

Whats the agency name? Somebody earlier said it sounded like a fishing exercise and I have to wholeheartedly agree - they get you to get them the names of senior people in brokerages that they will then use to target for their services. This agency sounds pretty unprofessional.

I dont think much of the big agencies that deal with this sector (probably because they have so many people on the books these days to give a personal regular service) but I certainly would not expect the likes of IDEX, IPS, Heat, Reed, Harrison Holgate, Lawes, NJR, Cryer Baker, Hays etc to ask you for this. Some names dropped there that you could try if not registered already just dont expect them to roll out the red carpet once you have registered with them.

Of course once at offer stage references are a must. I am not sure whether you can have somebody go into real detail about your abilities as such only to say that "Mike worked here between 2008 and 2017, he was always on time, very presentable, technically very competent, great with clients and a valued member of the team", No more no less IMHO. Sales roles might expand a little on whether you meeting set targets etc....

Also whenever I asked any of my agencies about the names of employers with new jobs "that have just come across their desks" they have never been obstructive about telling me who they are talking about. It also means that nobody looks stupid if you for example was already in talks or had even had an interview already with that particular employer!!! So that's another bad sign if your agency is not telling you. Bit cloak and dagger.

It doesnt sound at all right what they are asking of you.............I dont know if they are actually breaking any recruitment protocols here but if they are asking for this type of reference before an offer has been made and not telling you the name of the employer yet they want you to disclose past employer references then they dont strike me as the sort of agency that cares too much about following protocol anyway.

Feel free to PM if you want to discuss further off the public forum.

Edited by ToothbrushMan on Monday 22 October 10:19

Thanks for this ToothbrushMan. A really helpful post. You're right it would upset some of my clients (brokers), one in particular is very reliant on me and that could cause all kinds of problems.

I know most of those insurance recruiters, Lawes are a decent firm who have placed me into a role in the past but the firm asking me for this odd information isn't one of those. I do believe it's a fairly new company though so fishing for contacts does make sense.

I said a polite thanks but I'd only send my cv once I know the company and references once an offer was on the table and (probably predictably) I've had no response. I'll send you the name in a PM.

I wish you the best of luck in your own search!

[rossi1001]

So about a week after I politely told the recruitment agency that I needed to know the company name in advance and that I wouldn't be providing any references until offer stage, they came back with the name and didn't mention the references!

Turns out I knew one of the senior people at the company and they are actually one of the people doing the interviews. I could have lied to the agency said no thanks then approached the company directly but I figured it's not worth the hassle and it's not the right thing to do so I went through the agency. They said I'm the only person they have put forward for the role and I had my first interview late yesterday.

My other half said maybe the agency was just testing your negotiation skills with the weird initial requests although I don't think it was that myself! Anyway it's all worked out fine in the end. Will hopefully get some interview feedback today.

Thanks again for all the help.

[Troubleatmill]

As an independent contractor - I have had agencies ask the same thing " References up front"


Cue my reference C level exec - getting dozens of phone calls/ emails.
They were very pissed off.

If an agency asks you for the reference up front - drop them.

If you have a firm offer - then give references.

[Macneil]

No don't give references. No employer will take seriously a reference that they haven't obtained for themselves.
It's not unusual for an agency to keep the employer a secret, they're just covering their parasitic arses in case you approach the employer directly and they employ you without giving them their commission.

[philv]

The recruiter is using you to get contacts in your current or previous organiations.

[surveyor]

I had this once when applying to a County Council. I simply put references available on request.

At interview it was mentioned and I balked a little. I was told that they would only ever take references if they were likely to offer the job, but that it was policy to do the references first.

In the event they did decide that I was the nominated candidate, and I had an interesting couple of weeks while my private sector boss sulked about giving a reference, before I had resigned.

It seems this approach is the norm in the public sector.