The decline of the professional

[Evanivitch]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

The problem with sales is it's just that, sales. It's easy for people to say you could make X, but when things go wrong your salary is still only Y and no one cares that you could have been earning the delta in sales commission.

£25-30k is about starting salary for the majority of engineering graduates (certain employers will pay more). But you can quickly rise through that if you're a good worker and be earning very good money by 30.

A tradesperson could earn £25-30k pa after their training I'm sure, but where do they grow from there? They have to start growing as a business and not just an independent.

[StuTheGrouch]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

That's my experience too. My degrees have enabled me to do a job that genuinely interests me whereas without having gone to University I cannot see how I would get both, job enjoyment and good salary. As an example, the guy above suggested selling Audis would give a £50k salary, whilst a decent salary it's a job that would drive me nuts (plus doesn't offer much variety in a career).

Edited by StuTheGrouch on Wednesday 5th December 10:41

[paulrockliffe]

RizzoTheRat said:

Evanivitch said:

As a non-chartered engineer with less than 10 years experience I find those numbers pretty crap.

The public sector job will be 37 hours a week including coffee breaks though

Are public sector pensions still any good compared to private sector though? When I left 16 years ago they'd already stopped the final salary pensions, and I've since done contract work for the same organisation and quite a few people were moaning about pensions.

If you compare a typical public sector pension end value with buying an annuity via a private fund, I'd add 50% to the gross salary. That's perhaps not a fair comparison as private sector pensions tend to be giving a better return via draw-dawn, but if you place value on fixed guaranteed income in retirement, go with the 50% figure.

I'm working that out based on my wife's private sector pension and salary vs my public sector pension and salary. I shouldn't really say this out loud, but you'd be mad to work in the private sector in a middling job at the moment, as the public sector massively over-pays in that bracket when you factor pensions in. And that's without placing any value on your work-life balance.

You're right that civil servants like to moan about their pensions though, it's mostly because they haven't sat down and worked out what a pension costs in the real world.

[RJG46]

GT03ROB said:

What industry?

List of 10 most popular degrees in the UK 2018 includes...


Marine Biology
Physiotherapy
Make up artist
Psychology
Sports psychology

The mind boggles.


www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/courses/top-1...

[xx99xx]

Evanivitch said:

My friend who works for DfT gets something around 20% employer contributions for his pension. He's not an engineer but his salary is similar to mine.

As much as 37 hours rigidly with no overtime sounds great, it also seems pretty inflexible when you have travel and field testing opportunities.

With flexitime, you can do your 37 hours pretty much whenever you want. Can't get much more flexible than that. And presumably 'field testing opportunities' is work related so would go towards your contracted hours. There are also usually opportunities for voluntary overtime, as/when required.

Pensions are still pretty good after a long service and they're very secure.

I accept, for some people it's all about the money and the here and now. But for some, the public sector can be a rewarding, long term choice.

[chunder27]

Degrees have massively lost their importance, why? because every kid has one of a decent educational level.

When I was young, maybe 30 years ago, it was rare for kids to go to university, even clever kids. Now for anyone with half a brain it is the only option.

Hardly a surprise that companies look down more on degrees.

[fridaypassion]

StuTheGrouch said:

That's my experience too. My degrees have enabled me to do a job that genuinely interests me whereas without having gone to University I cannot see how I would get both, job enjoyment and good salary. As an example, the guy above suggested selling Audis would give a £50k salary, whilst a decent salary it's a job that would drive me nuts (plus doesn't offer much variety in a career).

Edited by StuTheGrouch on Wednesday 5th December 10:41

This could be true of any job though. I know a metallurgist and I wanted to kill myself after 5 minutes talking about that with him. We have all done stuff that you end up leaving for a change in direction. My point is that this chap in Audi sales he is in some regard a "professional" if he can keep hitting his targets consistently not even 5 out of 100 people could do that job so something about that chap that is not a degree but marks him out as better than the general populous at that task. Trades is another area where people can shine and again I can think of various trades where I know people earning way over any 45/50k salary that a graduate even well into their career would think was good.

4 years at uni is a waste of time for many not to mention life changing debt. No doubt there is a value to going to study but I think the time has more than come where young folk need to seriously think about it rather than just go because they did well at GCSE/A levels. Training as an apprentice/in the trades/persuing a retail or sales career/even lorry driving all things you get your training paid for and will with a bit of hard work reward more than your average graduate job.

I'm 40 soon and I think the rot started to set in as I was leaving school in 1995. In the early Blair era and just before the unis were opened up, other institutions and some petrol stations were changed into "unis" and everyone had to be packed off to keep the employment figures down. A lot of this was a mask for falling manufacturing of course which I ironically fell an early victim to being made redundant at 17 from an engineering company. I was struggling with the HNC so it was OK in the end

Edited by fridaypassion on Wednesday 5th December 13:09

[Tim1989]

Nick_13 said:

Not saying you had it easy but I struggle to see the comparison. What part of the country do you live in?

I live in the south east and a 2 bet flat in my town is 225-275k.
A 3 bed end of terrace house is c.£350-400k.
From my experience the average 19 year old is earning around 18-20k?
- Therefore to compare to the property you suggest the average 19 year old would need to borrow close to 18-20 times there salary with a years salary already saved up as a deposit. (before you calculate stamp, solicitors and other moving fees).

Add on costs that I assume you wouldn't of had at the time you moved out such as mobile phone, broadband and huge increases in insurance costs, prices of a meal out and a pint of lager increasing. I know you will argue that these are a luxury but to be honest in 2018 internet and mobile contact are fairly much a requirement for the majority of people - emails, work from home, applying for jobs, utilities, contact with employers etc

I do not feel hard done by at all but it does seem on my fag packet math's that it is much harder these days. It is a fact that for the first time, the youngest generation are being handed a worse deal than the generation before!

This is PistonHeads remember, completely out of touch with the modern world. Everybody 50+ on here was raised in a stone cottage with no roof on a diet of oats and barley, pulled themselves up by their bootstraps and now earns ‘6 figs’ consulting. Through a combination of ‘investing’ (buying a house in a rapidly rising housing market) and shrewd financial acumen (putting some money into savings when banks still paid interest) they were able to retire aged 45, buy a house in Surrey and still have enough left over for a lifetimes supply of Porsche branded baseball caps and Ferrari aftershave.

[FredClogs]

Chin up op, the first 40 years are the hardest.

But of course you're right, it been a grim decade and another one is likely to follow.

[Olivera]

paulrockliffe said:

If you compare a typical public sector pension end value with buying an annuity via a private fund, I'd add 50% to the gross salary.

...but you'd be mad to work in the private sector in a middling job at the moment, as the public sector massively over-pays in that bracket when you factor pensions in.

Very true, unless you are well paid (significantly over the UK average salary) then you should simply pack it in and go work for the government.

[StuTheGrouch]

fridaypassion said:

This could be true of any job though. I know a metallurgist and I wanted to kill myself after 5 minutes talking about that with him. We have all done stuff that you end up leaving for a change in direction. My point is that this chap in Audi sales he is in some regard a "professional" if he can keep hitting his targets consistently not even 5 out of 100 people could do that job so something about that chap that is not a degree but marks him out as better than the general populous at that task. Trades is another area where people can shine and again I can think of various trades where I know people earning way over any 45/50k salary that a graduate even well into their career would think was good.

4 years at uni is a waste of time for many not to mention life changing debt. No doubt there is a value to going to study but I think the time has more than come where young folk need to seriously think about it rather than just go because they did well at GCSE/A levels. Training as an apprentice/in the trades/persuing a retail or sales career/even lorry driving all things you get your training paid for and will with a bit of hard work reward more than your average graduate job.

I'm 40 soon and I think the rot started to set in as I was leaving school in 1995. In the early Blair era and just before the unis were opened up, other institutions and some petrol stations were changed into "unis" and everyone had to be packed off to keep the employment figures down. A lot of this was a mask for falling manufacturing of course which I ironically fell an early victim to being made redundant at 17 from an engineering company. I was struggling with the HNC so it was OK in the end

There will be examples of non-graduates and graduates earning spectacular salaries, but the general statistics show that those with a degree will earn more in their lifetime than someone without. Yes, the Audi seller without a degree might earn more than someone with a degree in teaching (for example). But the person with the degree in teaching will earn more than plenty of others doing minimal wage jobs. The difference here being that the person with a teaching degree most likely set out to become a teacher, fully in the knowledge that pay isn't great, it's simply what they want to do. Back to my point, a degree enables you (not guarantees or gives you the right) to follow jobs which would otherwise not be available to someone without a degree (Audi seller couldn't become a teacher, teacher could become a car dealer).

Apprentices are becoming more common again, and I personally think this is a great thing. Not everyone should go to University, it isn't the right choice for some, and you can be a professional without a degree.

[RJG46]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Given the now 9 grand a year tuition fees I'd have thought people would be looking to get into better paid jobs than some on the list.

[silent ninja]

CzechItOut said:

What makes you say "universities are tailored more today towards industry than they have ever been"?

There seems to be more graduates than ever, yet companies are still experiencing huge skill shortages as graduates either have the wrong degrees or simply aren't attracted to certain industries.

Also a symptom of lazy employers who can't be bothered to invest in staff. They want the finished article from day one - on a wage of peanuts by the way.

Everyone needs to learn their trade and sharpen skills on the job. Many employers just don't want to invest, or have any notion of building for the future. So the cycle continues....meanwhile they complain of a lack of skills.

Today's world of business is a system of complex systems. It's nothing like the 70's, 80's or 90's so to look back with rose tinted glasses entirely misses the point. Globalisation and technology are just two megatrends. The job market is totally different.

Edited by silent ninja on Wednesday 5th December 18:30

[eliot]

Evanivitch said:

You were earning the equivalent of £25,000 a year at 19? There are people with masters degrees that don't earn that these days.

I think the lesson of your story is that 6x mortgages are stupid.

I left school at the age of 16 straight into Maggies YTS scheme earning £27 a week (and paying my parents 1/3 of that as keeping)
I did a c&g in electronics on day release and worked at Olivetti for two years. In that time I proved that I could be productive and fix things without a hnd or going to uni.
Because of the above - when I turned 18 and my yts ended, Olivetti took me on as a junior electronic repair engineer (ah yes that old chestnut) on a salary of £6250 and a company car.
Carried on working hard, got past junior engineer and wage rise to 10k and bought my house at 19 (1989)
My dad guaranteed the mortgage, which is how i got 6x salary.
At the time there was unlimited overtime - so did two hours a day and 6 hours on saturday for a few years.
By the age of 22ish Just when people were finishing Uni - I started my second job with a decent pay rise due to the specific knowledge I had on ‘old’ computer kit having 5 years hands on experience under my belt at a pretty tender age really.
Around the same time my dad was removed as guarantor - so he was happy and blood pressure went down. At no point did he have to give me any money.

Several of my friends share a similar story, straight into work without uni.

Roll forward 40 years and I now employ people and to be honest I pretty much ignore what they did at uni (if at all) and take on based on the ability to do the job and be productive.

[James_B]

fridaypassion said:

You see people wafting about in a fancy range rover or BMW on a PCP it may well be perfectly affordable for them but if you are that guy who won't take an agreement out but puts up with an old banger that could affect how you are benchmarking your perceived success.

Please forgive me for needing to ask, but what does the above mean?

Are you saying that the person paying a high APR for a car is more successful? What does the benchmarking bit mean?

[stevensdrs]

eliot said:

I left school at the age of 16 straight into Maggies YTS scheme earning £27 a week (and paying my parents 1/3 of that as keeping)
I did a c&g in electronics on day release and worked at Olivetti for two years. In that time I proved that I could be productive and fix things without a hnd or going to uni.
Because of the above - when I turned 18 and my yts ended, Olivetti took me on as a junior electronic repair engineer (ah yes that old chestnut) on a salary of £6250 and a company car.
Carried on working hard, got past junior engineer and wage rise to 10k and bought my house at 19 (1989)
My dad guaranteed the mortgage, which is how i got 6x salary.
At the time there was unlimited overtime - so did two hours a day and 6 hours on saturday for a few years.
By the age of 22ish Just when people were finishing Uni - I started my second job with a decent pay rise due to the specific knowledge I had on ‘old’ computer kit having 5 years hands on experience under my belt at a pretty tender age really.
Around the same time my dad was removed as guarantor - so he was happy and blood pressure went down. At no point did he have to give me any money.

Several of my friends share a similar story, straight into work without uni.
Roll forward 40 years and I now employ people and to be honest I pretty much ignore what they did at uni (if at all) and take on based on the ability to do the job and be productive.

I too left school at 16 and started work right away in a shop. I was manager at 18 and left at 22 to take up the highest paid sales rep job in the country. I worked my way up through various blue chip companies to be a senior manager in head office. I left at 48 to be self employed and run my own business. I retired from all work 2 weeks ago with a fat pension, a big house and 3 cars. When I employed people I didn't care about their qualifications, only their ability to do the job. There are so many people doing naff degrees these days rather than getting a job. Sad really.

[Thankyou4calling]

Is the above a serious post? If so may I ask what was the highest paid sales rep job in the country?

How do you know it was ?

[Evanivitch]

Thankyou4calling said:

Is the above a serious post? If so may I ask what was the highest paid sales rep job in the country?

How do you know it was ?

He wouldn't be the #1 Salesperson in the UK if he understood the technical aspects behind the statements

[knitware]

I come from a working class background and when I was younger my ambition as an adult was to eat at weekends, we were skint. Cut out of how I did the next bit, but I graduated and I'm a professional mechanical engineer. I specialise in nothing, however I’m good at fixing problems and managing projects so I guess that makes me useful. I didn’t moan as I achieved my life goal of eating at weekends. My wife, however used to complain about the house being too small, I used to argue that engineering wasn’t a well paid job, so I had a think and changed things.

We were up North and I wanted to move South, I had no idea why but I thought that opportunities were greater, I didn’t know where I wanted to be but I knew I wanted to be South somewhere, so I applied for jobs from Cambridge to south of Oxford and below.

1- I secured a job and moved South
2- After a few years I started contracting
3- I bought a bigger house
4- My wife doesn’t moan

What I’m saying is, don’t settle, if you think you’re being hard done by then think of what you need to do to change things. Can you use CAD? If so, as a contract role you’re looking at ~£35 /hr. Project Engineers, from £40/50/60 hr up to silly money, so you do 60 hrs a week, why not get paid those hours, do the maths? Engineering can pay exceptionally well, don’t settle, don’t be envious, do change things.

[StevieBee]

James_B said:

fridaypassion said:

You see people wafting about in a fancy range rover or BMW on a PCP it may well be perfectly affordable for them but if you are that guy who won't take an agreement out but puts up with an old banger that could affect how you are benchmarking your perceived success.

Please forgive me for needing to ask, but what does the above mean?

Are you saying that the person paying a high APR for a car is more successful? What does the benchmarking bit mean?

I'm sure Fridaypassion can speak for himself but I agree and understand the notion.

Benchmarking one's level is success is completely arbitrary and depends very much on the context and the position you view things from. For example, which of the following is more successful:

1: A couple in their mid 40s living in a nice three bed semi on which they've paid off the mortgage driving a five year old Mondeo that they paid cash for.

Or..

2: A couple in their mid 40s living in a vast 6 bed home in a gated community on which they are paying £2.5k a month mortgage on and will be for the next 15 years driving a BMW M4 on a £1k a month PCP?

On the assumption that the second couple can afford it, one might reasonably suggest they are they more successful and they might agree. But the first couple are likely to have higher levels of disposal income and less stress so they may argue that they are the most successful

In truth, both are successful and benchmarking where you compare your success to others is dependant upon what you consider to be the definition of success.