A question about graduate pay and **** taking
Discussion
Olivera said:
When I graduated ~20 years ago big auditing and consultancy firms were offering starting salaries at the time in the region of £20k.
I would suggest that something is awry in the labour market if it hasn't increased much since then.
Audit is a race to the bottom in fees.I would suggest that something is awry in the labour market if it hasn't increased much since then.
Consultancy has increased over time (was about 22k in 1999, now about 35k+, higher for the higher end - McKinsey)
Zetec-S said:
boyse7en said:
£22k as a trainee sounds pretty good to me. Friend of mine is a qualified accountant and isn't on much more than that.
If your friend is actually a fully qualified accountant then it sounds like they need to find a new job.I'd be more concerned about his choice of career. Accountancy is very safe, but largely formulaic and rote. It's not exactly got scope for creativity. Seems like a miserable way of earning when you're going to be working 40 odd years!
Parents like you care about job security and money - but playing it safe is a bit of a myth. The truth is if you have commodity skills, you are expendable. The less you risk, the less you gain. The first 10-15 years are about risking and stretching. If there is no genuine growth, depth and creativity, you're chasing the wrong career.
Anyway, besides that I think salary is irrelevant in the first few years as long as it covers your expenses. These years are about growth, learning new skills, knowledge, finding your place. It's important to pick a line of career with complexity and depth that grows over decades long term (eg lawyer, enterprise architects, management consultant). Become a specialist, but not niche, and be good at your work and the money naturally comes rolling in. My first grad job was £18k. 3 years later it was £66k. It has scope for £1m plus within 12 ish years of starting because that's what my bosses get, failing that it's very realistic and achievable to get a strong six figure sum without stupid hours.
Good luck
Parents like you care about job security and money - but playing it safe is a bit of a myth. The truth is if you have commodity skills, you are expendable. The less you risk, the less you gain. The first 10-15 years are about risking and stretching. If there is no genuine growth, depth and creativity, you're chasing the wrong career.
Anyway, besides that I think salary is irrelevant in the first few years as long as it covers your expenses. These years are about growth, learning new skills, knowledge, finding your place. It's important to pick a line of career with complexity and depth that grows over decades long term (eg lawyer, enterprise architects, management consultant). Become a specialist, but not niche, and be good at your work and the money naturally comes rolling in. My first grad job was £18k. 3 years later it was £66k. It has scope for £1m plus within 12 ish years of starting because that's what my bosses get, failing that it's very realistic and achievable to get a strong six figure sum without stupid hours.
Good luck
Olivera said:
When I graduated ~20 years ago big auditing and consultancy firms were offering starting salaries at the time in the region of £20k.
I would suggest that something is awry in the labour market if it hasn't increased much since then.
Not so much awry, but I’d suggest there is a bigger pool of candidates these days.I would suggest that something is awry in the labour market if it hasn't increased much since then.
Vaud said:
blueg33 said:
A masters in any science is what the big accounting firms, big lawyers and big investment houses want to see. For law you then need a conversion course.
Not true for big 4.https://www2.deloitte.com/uk/en/pages/careers/arti...
The highest level they require is a 2:1 degree. You can even enter as an apprentice with no A levels and they will train you.
Masters, etc is more common for consulting side, higher end roles and as you say the lawyers/investment houses.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
A Desmond from Coventry Polytechnic in Production Engineering with manufacturing systems and year in industry, accreditted by IProdE (now part of IET) Given my own woeful A level grades which was just enough to start a HND, my kids are clearly harder working and cleverer.
I think the main difference between accountancy and engineering, is that becoming chartered in Engineering has very little impact in your pay.
To be fair, now I run a LTD company, i feel that becoming an accountant would have been a better career.
silent ninja said:
I'd be more concerned about his choice of career. Accountancy is very safe, but largely formulaic and rote. It's not exactly got scope for creativity. Seems like a miserable way of earning when you're going to be working 40 odd years!
Audit is also the most exposed to automation and AI going forward.blueg33 said:
I meant a science qualification at least at degree level for fast promotion. Physics and maths are best. That comment has come directly to me from equity partners of big 4 and golden circle law firms.
Ah, to excel, yes. I thought you meant as a barrier to entry. My error.A few accountants build a great career, FD of reasonable sized businesses, or partner at a big firm, but many spend their career counting beans.
My last company, a City investment and development business had 50 staff in London, 30 of those are qualified accountants aged between 30 and 50, none coukd be described as senior. The FD and the MD are both accountants, the other directors are an ex Barrister and me a Development and investment specialist with no relevant qualifications. The other senior managers across the business are not accountants, and earn more than the accountants.
If we need accountants they are easy to hire (except at FD level), but development, investment and project management skillsets are much harder to find and consequently get paid more.
My last company, a City investment and development business had 50 staff in London, 30 of those are qualified accountants aged between 30 and 50, none coukd be described as senior. The FD and the MD are both accountants, the other directors are an ex Barrister and me a Development and investment specialist with no relevant qualifications. The other senior managers across the business are not accountants, and earn more than the accountants.
If we need accountants they are easy to hire (except at FD level), but development, investment and project management skillsets are much harder to find and consequently get paid more.
Vaud said:
silent ninja said:
I'd be more concerned about his choice of career. Accountancy is very safe, but largely formulaic and rote. It's not exactly got scope for creativity. Seems like a miserable way of earning when you're going to be working 40 odd years!
Audit is also the most exposed to automation and AI going forward.Admittedly the junior level number-crunching stuff was pretty tedious (esepcially in the old days before Excel!) but, once you're qualified, it definitely gets more interesting. And Accountancy itself has lots of specialisms (Audit, Tax, Consultancy, Counter-Fraud). And if you work for one of the Big 4 then the world is your lobster
There are harder ways of earning less money
Pit Pony said:
A Desmond from Coventry Polytechnic in Production Engineering with manufacturing systems and year in industry, accreditted by IProdE (now part of IET)
Given my own woeful A level grades which was just enough to start a HND, my kids are clearly harder working and cleverer.
I think the main difference between accountancy and engineering, is that becoming chartered in Engineering has very little impact in your pay.
To be fair, now I run a LTD company, i feel that becoming an accountant would have been a better career.
I think this is true, I keep meaning to start the application process with the ImechE to become chartered (and have done for the last 10 years), but it seems very little reward for the £300/year fee and I know my boss wouldn't put my wages up for having it. The only benefit I can see is if applying for new jobs it looks good on the CV, though it's never stopped me getting the jobs I've gone for before? I sometimes wish I'd used my engineering degree to go into the finance route, after nearly 20 years in this field though it's probably a bit late now.Given my own woeful A level grades which was just enough to start a HND, my kids are clearly harder working and cleverer.
I think the main difference between accountancy and engineering, is that becoming chartered in Engineering has very little impact in your pay.
To be fair, now I run a LTD company, i feel that becoming an accountant would have been a better career.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
In my current role I get to meet a surprisingly large number of beautiful women. Sadly (for me) the media industry also has a large number of fit men 
Putting all perviness and letching to one side - some days are good, some days are bad. Like any job a lot of it depends on the people you work with and 95% of my colleagues are great.
I had a third in University.
Literally noone has given a f
k about what grade I had over the various jobs i've had over the years. The jobs required a degree, and I could of course produce a degree certificate, but 13 years on I've never been questioned about how i got to that grade.
(Incidentally, my first job at a software company was in 2006 @ 18k, so about 25k in todays money).
Literally noone has given a f
k about what grade I had over the various jobs i've had over the years. The jobs required a degree, and I could of course produce a degree certificate, but 13 years on I've never been questioned about how i got to that grade.(Incidentally, my first job at a software company was in 2006 @ 18k, so about 25k in todays money).
devnull said:
I had a third in University.
Literally noone has given a fk about what grade I had over the various jobs i've had over the years. The jobs required a degree, and I could of course produce a degree certificate, but 13 years on I've never been questioned about how i got to that grade.
(Incidentally, my first job at a software company was in 2006 @ 18k, so about 25k in todays money).
I got my 2/2 in 1987. I was pretty surprised last week at an interview when I was asked why only a 2/2? I created £100m of new assets last year with a £20m profit so who gives a flying fLiterally noone has given a f
k about what grade I had over the various jobs i've had over the years. The jobs required a degree, and I could of course produce a degree certificate, but 13 years on I've never been questioned about how i got to that grade.(Incidentally, my first job at a software company was in 2006 @ 18k, so about 25k in todays money).
k what degree I have!He didn't ask about the MBA which is bizarre as the role was a Group MD for a business with 5000 employees.
Didn't get the job
Pit Pony said:
So my son got a 1st Masters in Chemistry from York.
4 years ago.
He worked in Cancer drug discovery, and after 2 years took voluntary redundancy and did teacher training at Birmingham.
So during his NQT year he decided that he hated being a chemistry teacher.
So he's changing direction again. He applied and has been successful with one of the big accountancy firms. You know the one that begins with P, and gets fined occasionally and fks up the Oscars. Job is a trainee in the Assurance function (auditing?)
Leads to ACA chartered status.
Now is it just me or is £22k a year a proper pistake?
I know there is the dangling of carrot, and all that, but to me it just says we actually are going to treat you like st.
I've tried to be encouraging, but if he was me, I'd be looking elsewhere.
I live in the here and now and not the future and occasional regret it.
Not sure where you are in the country op.4 years ago.
He worked in Cancer drug discovery, and after 2 years took voluntary redundancy and did teacher training at Birmingham.
So during his NQT year he decided that he hated being a chemistry teacher.
So he's changing direction again. He applied and has been successful with one of the big accountancy firms. You know the one that begins with P, and gets fined occasionally and f
ks up the Oscars. Job is a trainee in the Assurance function (auditing?)Leads to ACA chartered status.
Now is it just me or is £22k a year a proper pistake?
I know there is the dangling of carrot, and all that, but to me it just says we actually are going to treat you like s
t. I've tried to be encouraging, but if he was me, I'd be looking elsewhere.
I live in the here and now and not the future and occasional regret it.
OH is ACA chartered, she worked for a fairly large accounts firm & got a training contract, training was with a very well respected business school.
Starting salary was below what you've mentioned above there (think closer to minimum wage), it gradually rose the more exams that she'd completed & experience she gained.
She regularly told me, all trainees are basically used to audit (whilst of course doing other things) & it's by far the most boring & monotonous part of accountancy.
She was on more than that prior to her finals, not a lot more, but once she passed her finals, her salary was put up considerably overnight.
Apparently it's all down the charge out rates, if someones ACA qualified, they can charge them our for considerably more, as they essentially become a 'manager' overnight.
I have a friend who also has a degree in Biomedical sciences (masters) & he moved to accountancy to do his ACA qualifications, he is on much the same salary as quoted above by you.
The OH found accountancy mind numbingly boring, she changed practices, however found the same at the new practice & instead ended up working for a client as FC.
My other mate who's training currently has already said he's just using it as a stepping stone to move into a more business orientated role.
Getting his training contract & then doing his few years experience is a hell of a lot cheaper & easier than funding it yourself as he's still got a wage coming in & he's learning on the job whilst also spending weeks/months away over the course of a year training.
Your lad kind of needs to see his degree (whilst having one), is irrelevant in the field of finance, much like if he went from say finance to medicine/science, they'd see his degree as fairly irrelevant as it doesn't have much use in that field.
Edited by theguvernor15 on Friday 28th June 13:25
Countdown said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
In my current role I get to meet a surprisingly large number of beautiful women. Sadly (for me) the media industry also has a large number of fit men Putting all perviness and letching to one side - some days are good, some days are bad. Like any job a lot of it depends on the people you work with and 95% of my colleagues are great.
Loads of people tell me they could never work in accounts because they are rubbish at maths, I just tell them the computer adds it up for you
People also view the stereotypical accountant as someone who sits tucked away in an office pouring over spreadsheets all day. Admittedly there are a lot like that, but that's not all there is to it. In my role I probably interact with more people than anyone else in the company.
theguvernor15 said:
Apparently it's all down the charge out rates, if someones ACA qualified, they can charge them our for considerably more, as they essentially become a 'manager' overnight.
I think the charge-out rate is tiered depending on whether the person is junior/senior/manager/Director/partner.Edited by theguvernor15 on Friday 28th June 13:25
IIRC we pay one of the Big 4 £130/day for a Junior, up to £4000/day for a partner.
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