Contractors: IR35 & general discussion

[aeropilot]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

GT03ROB said:

You may not many others do & in exactly the way I describe.And if you don't believe me go through numerous threads where people shout off about headline daily rates.

Well, they're twits if they do. Not only is it unprofessional, and also usually a breach of contract, but it's also dickish behaviour.

However, being a dick is not the sole preserve of a contractor. Dickish people will behave dickishly, regardless of their tax status.

Indeed.

In 40 years working both as a permie and a contractor, I can only think of one young contract guy, back in the early 80's who displaced that type of dhead behavior in regard rates. What was funny though, was he was actually on the lowest rate out of all the contractors, but didn't know that, as all the other guys that knew whats what, kept their mouths shut and got on with the job. He wasn't well liked even among his fellow contractors...and back then 75% of the drawing office was contractors.

[g7orge]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

worsy said:

not a bunch of people whinging because they are losing 14.8% of their 100k salary.

Why don't you voluntarily pay more tax then? Be a hero and benefit the economy.

Also, there's a huge difference between a £100k turnover and a £100k salary. As an ex-contractor you ought to know that.

Edited by Clockwork Cupcake on Monday 17th February 18:15

[Gad-Westy]

Have to say my experience of contracting echoes many on here. Discussing my rate, tax affairs or anything like it would be the last thing I'd want to do. I've never heard anyone else discuss their's either. That would apply as a permanent member of staff too but somehow seems even more important as a contractor as you're selling a business your service, you're not joining the team (can of worms alert!). It feels like it would be akin to a builder telling me how much profit he's making on my extension job.

Some permanent staff make jibes about contractor rates all the time but it's always seemed good humoured and easily brushed aside. And not that I want to get the violin out too much here, as I enjoy what I do, but I don't imagine many permanent members of staff would enjoy having to fork out for the software licenses and hardware that I need to do my job and the insurances and support plans needed to make sure the show stays on the road.

And again, like many on here, I have found myself and other contractors just want to keep their head down and get on with the task that you've been contracted to carry out. To get involved in the usual office banter, chatter, whinging etc would feel like you're ripping off the client who is paying for your each and every hour. Consequently, I've noticed that contractors are notable by how little you notice them.

Edited by Gad-Westy on Tuesday 18th February 09:33

[Ceeejay]

Ive been in touch with a client I contracted with last year. They have taken the same decision as my current client and putting everyone inside IR35. They've asked me how much would it take to take me on inside IR35... So ive given them a figure thats 20% above what I last contracted with them for. Hopefully I'll get a nibble.

In the man time Im ending my curent gig in 2 weeks time, and planning on having at least a month off, until the next tax year kicks in.

Still slightly confused over contracting inside IR35.

Will I have to go through umbrella ?? Will the client just take me on under a short term permie contract ??
I have a rainy day fun in my current LTD. Is it best to empty that out gradually with dividends, or push it into a private pension ?? Looking at the current market I cant see me needing it again. I'm getting near my time in life when I should be chilling out and going permie anyway....

[tighnamara]

GT03ROB said:

Well I’m not going to play O&G top trumps with you. But it happens. And it happens in Contractors & operators offices. Of course we’d all like it not to happen. I”be even seen operators facilitating it for their purposes.

Certainly not playing anything, just pointing out that you must be in the minority, as others have also said they have not heard such bragging.

[PurpleTurtle]

GT03ROB said:

You are right on both counts. However in my experience contractors are a lot more vocal in their discussion of pay Most people on a project will know what a contractor earns not vice versa. Contractors meet a need but by god can they be high maintenance.

In my 25yrs of contracting the only people I have ever encountered gobbing off about rates are permies who have got wind of the day rate, but don't understand the difference between net and gross.

[CX53]

In my line of work it seems compulsory to upset the permies by talking loudly about how much you earned the previous week, and try and pursuade them to go contracting.

Some of them care, some don't, as they don't want to do the overtime we are often brought in to do, and the gap in my industry is nowhere near as big as the likes of IT contract and perm rates.

I don't like to discuss it as I don't think it's anyone's business, but it does constantly happen and is consistent in the 10 or so clients I've had since 2012.

[Clockwork Cupcake]

CX53 said:

In my line of work it seems compulsory to upset the permies by talking loudly about how much you earned the previous week, and try and pursuade them to go contracting.

Some of them care, some don't, as they don't want to do the overtime we are often brought in to do, and the gap in my industry is nowhere near as big as the likes of IT contract and perm rates.

I don't like to discuss it as I don't think it's anyone's business, but it does constantly happen and is consistent in the 10 or so clients I've had since 2012.

You must work in a different industry to the rest of us. In 20 years of contracting I have never encountered that behaviour.

[Clockwork Cupcake]

PurpleTurtle said:

In my 25yrs of contracting the only people I have ever encountered gobbing off about rates are permies who have got wind of the day rate, but don't understand the difference between net and gross.

Same here.

(25 years in the IT industry, of which 20 years has been as a contractor)

[matt173407]

Having spoken to a few IT contractors some of which still outside IR35 and have not been advised of any change to their current contract which lasts until end of year. It seems they have been told by agencies that clients will simply increase the rates to compensate ? is this really the case or is this just agencies opinions ?

[Countdown]

With regards to permies knowing what rates Contractors are on, pretty much most people in the Finance team will know, and I'd be surprised if Managers in the IT team didn't know. It would be a relatively junior member of the IT team who raised a Purchase Order and office gossip is what it is.

However, for us, there's never an issue as Contractors are rarely on site so they don't actually mix with Permies. Plus (afaik) the work they do isn't comparable so it would be strange for permies to get upset.

[hyphen]

matt173407 said:

Having spoken to a few IT contractors some of which still outside IR35 and have not been advised of any change to their current contract which lasts until end of year. It seems they have been told by agencies that clients will simply increase the rates to compensate ? is this really the case or is this just agencies opinions ?

Everyone will get told to take it or leave it.

Those (few) that say leave will then get assessed for how easily replaceable they are, or are not and negotiations started if the latter.

[hyphen]

Countdown said:

With regards to permies knowing what rates Contractors are on, pretty much most people in the Finance team will know, and I'd be surprised if Managers in the IT team didn't know. It would be a relatively junior member of the IT team who raised a Purchase Order and office gossip is what it is.

Will they know what the contractor is on? Or what the contractor + agency is charging....

[i prefer a flan]

Occasionally I'd attend a new site where the team was comprised of salaried 'permies' and I was one of a handful of contractors. In my experience these places were a joke, most salaried guys were serious p*** takers to the point of bewilderment. They'd turn up out of duress (it seemed) and they'd repay their employer with excessive socials and 'the craic', perhaps throw in some gossip regarding contractor day rates etc. I'd be left scratching my head wondering what the hell were being paid for or why they bothered turning up.

On the other hand most contractors were serious people driven by money and there's nothing wrong with that. Personally I've always favoured the contractor / client arrangement because it acquires results - each side gets what is fairly theirs - the contractor gets paid properly and he gives the client 110% because he's out the door otherwise. When I'm forced on the payroll the client won't be getting a fraction of my previous efforts and I don't care. Projects will lose that contractor driving force that they RELY ON. That said don't let that give you the impression I'm bothered about project delivery or quality - I was only ever in this for the money and it's out of my hands.

[Countdown]

hyphen said:

Countdown said:

With regards to permies knowing what rates Contractors are on, pretty much most people in the Finance team will know, and I'd be surprised if Managers in the IT team didn't know. It would be a relatively junior member of the IT team who raised a Purchase Order and office gossip is what it is.

Will they know what the contractor is on? Or what the contractor + agency is charging....

The latter (as most of our Contractors are/were from Randstad) and their invoices don't break it down. Unfortunately people assume that's what the Contractor is on

Randstad's invoices tend to say "Mr Jim Contractor X hours @ £00 per hour". Our SAP Support invoices just say "Quarter 3 209/20, X hours @ £00 per hour". In the first case it's always "Jim" who's been on site, and had his timesheets signed off by a member of staff. In the latter case we ask for a job doing, they quite X hours, and they'll bill for X hours

[Countdown]

i prefer a flan said:

Occasionally I'd attend a new site where the team was comprised of salaried 'permies' and I was one of a handful of contractors. In my experience these places were a joke, most salaried guys were serious p*** takers to the point of bewilderment. They'd turn up out of duress (it seemed) and they'd repay their employer with excessive socials and 'the craic', perhaps throw in some gossip regarding contractor day rates etc. I'd be left scratching my head wondering what the hell were being paid for or why they bothered turning up.

On the other hand most contractors were serious people driven by money and there's nothing wrong with that. Personally I've always favoured the contractor / client arrangement because it acquires results - each side gets what is fairly theirs - the contractor gets paid properly and he gives the client 110% because he's out the door otherwise. When I'm forced on the payroll the client won't be getting a fraction of my previous efforts and I don't care. Projects will lose that contractor driving force that they RELY ON. That said don't let that give you the impression I'm bothered about project delivery or quality - I was only ever in this for the money and it's out of my hands.

If that's true then that's truly excellent news for Contractors because Employers will massively increase day rates to compensate for IR35, or provide "outside" Contracts because otherwise they'll simply fall apart......if that's true.

[duffy78]

CzechItOut said:

To be frank, I've only been with my end-client for 9 months, so if push comes to shove I'll just pay the tax. It's the "contractors" who've been with the same end client for 2-3 years or more and moved from project to project who should be stting themselves as they are clearly a hidden employee AND face a very large bill.

Unless each contract has been purely project specific and each new project sees a new contract being entered into.

[worsy]

i prefer a flan said:

Occasionally I'd attend a new site where the team was comprised of salaried 'permies' and I was one of a handful of contractors. In my experience these places were a joke, most salaried guys were serious p*** takers to the point of bewilderment. They'd turn up out of duress (it seemed) and they'd repay their employer with excessive socials and 'the craic', perhaps throw in some gossip regarding contractor day rates etc. I'd be left scratching my head wondering what the hell were being paid for or why they bothered turning up.

On the other hand most contractors were serious people driven by money and there's nothing wrong with that. Personally I've always favoured the contractor / client arrangement because it acquires results - each side gets what is fairly theirs - the contractor gets paid properly and he gives the client 110% because he's out the door otherwise. When I'm forced on the payroll the client won't be getting a fraction of my previous efforts and I don't care. Projects will lose that contractor driving force that they RELY ON. That said don't let that give you the impression I'm bothered about project delivery or quality - I was only ever in this for the money and it's out of my hands.

Cool story bro.

There are crap contractors and good permies out there too.

[Clockwork Cupcake]

worsy said:

There are crap contractors and good permies out there too.

And vice versa.

As I said earlier, dickish people will behave dickishly, regardless of their tax / employment status.

[g7orge]

Countdown said:

hyphen said:

Countdown said:

With regards to permies knowing what rates Contractors are on, pretty much most people in the Finance team will know, and I'd be surprised if Managers in the IT team didn't know. It would be a relatively junior member of the IT team who raised a Purchase Order and office gossip is what it is.

Will they know what the contractor is on? Or what the contractor + agency is charging....

The latter (as most of our Contractors are/were from Randstad) and their invoices don't break it down. Unfortunately people assume that's what the Contractor is on

Randstad's invoices tend to say "Mr Jim Contractor X hours @ £00 per hour". Our SAP Support invoices just say "Quarter 3 209/20, X hours @ £00 per hour". In the first case it's always "Jim" who's been on site, and had his timesheets signed off by a member of staff. In the latter case we ask for a job doing, they quite X hours, and they'll bill for X hours

Sounds like last time you saw a contractor invoice was in the 80s - majority of invoices will show a day rate -