Contractors: IR35 & general discussion

[Clockwork Cupcake]

FredClogs said:

You can argue the toss guys, it doesn't matter what matters is how your clients want to define roles moving forward. Some will define roles outside, that may still be arguably In and some will err to caution and define roles In that are arguably out, the reality is its no longer your problem/decision/liability.

I think we are arguing that it is a load of toss, rather than arguing the toss.

[GT03ROB]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

Well, quite. By that argument, when you have cable or broadband fitted, the contractors who come round to route the cable into your house and connect it up are your employees, because you direct them where you would like the cable to enter the house and where you would like the box to be sited.

Most would be fired & not paid based on my experience.Instead I get a bill from BT saying tough st you pay.

[mondeoman]

GT03ROB said:

Clockwork Cupcake said:

Well, quite. By that argument, when you have cable or broadband fitted, the contractors who come round to route the cable into your house and connect it up are your employees, because you direct them where you would like the cable to enter the house and where you would like the box to be sited.

Most would be fired & not paid based on my experience.Instead I get a bill from BT saying tough st you pay.

[mondeoman]

FredClogs said:

You can argue the toss guys, it doesn't matter what matters is how your clients want to define roles moving forward. Some will define roles outside, that may still be arguably In and some will err to caution and define roles In that are arguably out, the reality is its no longer your problem/decision/liability.

Unlike the 70's, when it was "Everybody out!!!", the 20s will be defined by "Everbody IN!!!"

[Countdown]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

I'd be interested in your views on why plumbers, electricians, gardeners, etc., are not inside IR35 and disguised employees of their various clients.

My gardeners are a husband and wife team, operating a small business. They attend my house regularly, and generally I let them get on with things but sometimes tell them to turn their attention to that flower bed over there that needs weeding, or to trim back that bush over there, in addition to the usual grass cutting.

Am I their employer? Do I need to be giving them PAYE pay slips and paying employer's National Insurance for them?

To compare it with Lord Marylebone’s role

1 Do you normally employ a permanent Gardener?
2. Does he manage a team of staff?
3. Does he act as your representative to external bodies/partner organisations?
4. Does he use your tools and equipment?
5. Would you reject a substitute if the gardener sent his wife instead?

I’m guessing the answer for your gardener to each of the above is “No”. I’m also guessing that for Lord M’s case the answer is “Yes”

[Countdown]

Gazzab said:

As an interim change director I do not receive direction and control, I do not career manage anyone (just task), I don’t take part in any work events, i work to deliver outcomes, I propose how this will be done, I don’t have to be at a clients site, i don’t get a parking space, don’t drink their coffee (yuck) etc etc etc.

If the person you’ve “tasked” doesn’t do what they’re supposed to who tells them to sort themselves out? Is it you or do they have a formal line manager?

My team can WFH, they have “deliverables” (daily/weekly/monthly), they dont get parking spaces (£1200 pa upwards were we are), some of them drink the coffee, some dont. Those factors dont determine whether or not they’re PAYE or whether they’re self employed.

[GT03ROB]

mondeoman said:

GT03ROB said:

Clockwork Cupcake said:

Well, quite. By that argument, when you have cable or broadband fitted, the contractors who come round to route the cable into your house and connect it up are your employees, because you direct them where you would like the cable to enter the house and where you would like the box to be sited.

Most would be fired & not paid based on my experience.Instead I get a bill from BT saying tough st you pay.

Correct... but in so many ways defines the difference.

[Gazzab]

Countdown said:

Gazzab said:

As an interim change director I do not receive direction and control, I do not career manage anyone (just task), I don’t take part in any work events, i work to deliver outcomes, I propose how this will be done, I don’t have to be at a clients site, i don’t get a parking space, don’t drink their coffee (yuck) etc etc etc.

If the person you’ve “tasked” doesn’t do what they’re supposed to who tells them to sort themselves out? Is it you or do they have a formal line manager?

My team can WFH, they have “deliverables” (daily/weekly/monthly), they dont get parking spaces (£1200 pa upwards were we are), some of them drink the coffee, some dont. Those factors dont determine whether or not they’re PAYE or whether they’re self employed.

They may or may not have a line manager. I focus on them delivering their tasks/outputs.
Those factors are all part of the assessment in a court of law, as is MOO, substitution etc.
The point is, as evidenced in court, I should always be outside’ but unfortunately I expect many potential clients to no longer deal in that currency regardless of the legality of an engagement or the Cest results. I will pay a hell of a lot less tax (even when you add on eNI), the flexible workforce will shrink etc etc etc etc. Everyone is a loser with off pay roll. But i am sure there are many that should be inside and will be inside eg a banking programmer who has sat in the same dev team for the last 10 years.

[Blown2CV]

Countdown said:

Gazzab said:

As an interim change director I do not receive direction and control, I do not career manage anyone (just task), I don’t take part in any work events, i work to deliver outcomes, I propose how this will be done, I don’t have to be at a clients site, i don’t get a parking space, don’t drink their coffee (yuck) etc etc etc.

If the person you’ve “tasked” doesn’t do what they’re supposed to who tells them to sort themselves out? Is it you or do they have a formal line manager?

My team can WFH, they have “deliverables” (daily/weekly/monthly), they dont get parking spaces (£1200 pa upwards were we are), some of them drink the coffee, some dont. Those factors dont determine whether or not they’re PAYE or whether they’re self employed.

i think the difference is - do you own the resource to deliver all tasks? If not then you cannot say you are outside, and otherwise why would anyone sign up to accountability with no responsibility.

[Countdown]

Blown2CV said:

i think the difference is - do you own the resource to deliver all tasks? If not then you cannot say you are outside, and otherwise why would anyone sign up to accountability with no responsibility.

What resources would you need to deliver an office job though? Pretty much everything is provided by your Employer. It's not as if you're a Gardener/Plumber/Electrician as per the example earlier by CC.

[Sheepshanks]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

So suddenly households up and down the country find themselves in an employer-employee relationship with their cleaners and gardeners? And have to worry about NI, payroll, and the like?

That certainly happens with nannies.

[Gazzab]

Blown2CV said:

i think the difference is - do you own the resource to deliver all tasks? If not then you cannot say you are outside, and otherwise why would anyone sign up to accountability with no responsibility.

Are you being serious. Anyone working with a client whether they are psc or a major consultancy etc needs tasks completed by client resources. It’s of no relevance (unless you have spotted this in CEST or a court case?). The important bit is things like appraisals.

[Countdown]

Gazzab said:

Are you being serious. Anyone working with a client whether they are psc or a major consultancy etc needs tasks completed by client resources. It’s of no relevance (unless you have spotted this in CEST or a court case?). The important bit is things like appraisals.

Isn't one of the CEST checks relating to whether the person supplies their own tools/equipment?

[PostHeads123]

Lots of discussion on this thread about the rights and wrongs of it all, such discussion has been going on for yearrrrrrssss.. the reality is,

1. Its happening.
2. The big clients users don't really care and will just not work with PSC anymore and will use this as an excuse to move work to other locations and will expect the contractors to suck it up.
3. There will be outside IR35 contracts but competition for these will be HIGH.
4. Some contractors who think they are still worth X will need a reality check as the good days are over.
5. Things will settle down but imo its the contractors who will have to adapt the clients don't care.

Edited by PostHeads123 on Monday 17th February 12:27

[Blown2CV]

Countdown said:

Blown2CV said:

i think the difference is - do you own the resource to deliver all tasks? If not then you cannot say you are outside, and otherwise why would anyone sign up to accountability with no responsibility.

What resources would you need to deliver an office job though? Pretty much everything is provided by your Employer. It's not as if you're a Gardener/Plumber/Electrician as per the example earlier by CC.

people... generally

[Countdown]

Blown2CV said:

Countdown said:

Blown2CV said:

i think the difference is - do you own the resource to deliver all tasks? If not then you cannot say you are outside, and otherwise why would anyone sign up to accountability with no responsibility.

What resources would you need to deliver an office job though? Pretty much everything is provided by your Employer. It's not as if you're a Gardener/Plumber/Electrician as per the example earlier by CC.

people... generally

So if you're using your own staff then you're outside IR35 but if you're using the Client's staff you're inside?

I'd agree with you but I'm not sure many Contractors will.....

[Blown2CV]

Countdown said:

Blown2CV said:

Countdown said:

Blown2CV said:

i think the difference is - do you own the resource to deliver all tasks? If not then you cannot say you are outside, and otherwise why would anyone sign up to accountability with no responsibility.

What resources would you need to deliver an office job though? Pretty much everything is provided by your Employer. It's not as if you're a Gardener/Plumber/Electrician as per the example earlier by CC.

people... generally

So if you're using your own staff then you're outside IR35 but if you're using the Client's staff you're inside?

I'd agree with you but I'm not sure many Contractors will.....

i think you know as well as anyone that there are multiple factors to take into account, but if you own all the people and have been given the 'tasks' to do as this guy says he has, then there likely will be no debate over inside/outside. If you don't, then there will be a debate.

[bonerp]

QUESTION:

My insurances run out on 29th March and the end client now wants to extend us all to 3rd April due to the changes in payment allowances.
Are there any firms that could provide cover for a week? Or a month max? Seems pointless to buy 12 months cover at £400 just for a week.

thanks

Edited by bonerp on Monday 17th February 12:45

[Tim330]

bonerp said:

QUESTION:

My insurances run out on 29th March and the end client now wants to extend us all to 3rd April due to the changes in payment allowances.
Are there any firms that could provide cover for a week? Or a month max? Seems pointless to buy 12 months cover at £400 just for a week.

thanks

Edited by bonerp on Monday 17th February 12:45

Do you need cover in force for a period after your contract ends (worth checking your contract)? What if a mistake you made isn't spotted for six months?

[zippy3x]

bonerp said:

QUESTION:

My insurances run out on 29th March and the end client now wants to extend us all to 3rd April due to the changes in payment allowances.
Are there any firms that could provide cover for a week? Or a month max? Seems pointless to buy 12 months cover at £400 just for a week.

thanks

Edited by bonerp on Monday 17th February 12:45

I'd be expecting a big rate bump for a 1 week contract + £400 reclaimed expense for insurance.