Contractors: IR35 & general discussion
Discussion
GT03ROB said:
Of course there is........ however......... for years now contractors have been shouting lodasmoney at the staffers, waving their turnover as if it's salary. A lot of contractors have been treating it as salary too. Hence the gnashing of teeth & moans about staffers getting holiday pay while contractors don't pre-IR35.
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ks they do. I have never discussed my rate with a client's employees, not even socially.Clockwork Cupcake said:
GT03ROB said:
Of course there is........ however......... for years now contractors have been shouting lodasmoney at the staffers, waving their turnover as if it's salary. A lot of contractors have been treating it as salary too. Hence the gnashing of teeth & moans about staffers getting holiday pay while contractors don't pre-IR35.
bks they do. I have never discussed my rate with a client's employees, not even socially.GT03ROB said:
You may not many others do & in exactly the way I describe.And if you don't believe me go through numerous threads where people shout off about headline daily rates.
Well, they're twits if they do. Not only is it unprofessional, and also usually a breach of contract, but it's also dickish behaviour.However, being a dick is not the sole preserve of a contractor. Dickish people will behave dickishly, regardless of their tax status.
Clockwork Cupcake said:
Well, they're twits if they do. Not only is it unprofessional, and also usually a breach of contract, but it's also dickish behaviour.
However, being a dick is not the sole preserve of a contractor. Dickish people will behave dickishly, regardless of their tax status.
You are right on both counts. However in my experience contractors are a lot more vocal in their discussion of pay Most people on a project will know what a contractor earns not vice versa. Contractors meet a need but by god can they be high maintenance. However, being a dick is not the sole preserve of a contractor. Dickish people will behave dickishly, regardless of their tax status.
GT03ROB said:
Of course there is........ however......... for years now contractors have been shouting lodasmoney at the staffers, waving their turnover as if it's salary. A lot of contractors have been treating it as salary too. Hence the gnashing of teeth & moans about staffers getting holiday pay while contractors don't pre-IR35.
Absolute rubbish, don’t know where you have been working never have I heard of anyone shouting “loadsamoney” at staff and if they were they wouldn’t be around long.Heard banter between friends staff / contractors but not serious.
In the O & G industry most staff (in my sector) have been abroad where expat pays way more than any contracting position.
What do you meany by pre IR35 ?
GT03ROB said:
You are right on both counts. However in my experience contractors are a lot more vocal in their discussion of pay Most people on a project will know what a contractor earns not vice versa. Contractors meet a need but by god can they be high maintenance.
I don't think it is really fair to tar all with the same brush.In the circles I usually move in, it is an unspoken agreement that you simply don't discuss your rate. It's usually the permies who bring it up, not the contractors. And my response is to offer to help them go contracting, if they believe the grass is greener on my side of the fence. I would certainly not rub their noses in it. What kind of idiot would do that?
Having said that, I've never worked in the dick-swinging City so maybe it's different there.
Anyway, regardless, I maintain that it is unprofessional and stupid. And, further, the exception not the norm.
tighnamara said:
Absolute rubbish, don’t know where you have been working never have I heard of anyone shouting “loadsamoney” at staff and if they were they wouldn’t be around long.
Heard banter between friends staff / contractors but not serious.
In the O & G industry most staff (in my sector) have been abroad where expat pays way more than any contracting position.
I've worked O&G in the major EPC contractors at home & abroad. Contractor rates are well know from the contractors telling staff they are mugs........ until the industry turns down.Heard banter between friends staff / contractors but not serious.
In the O & G industry most staff (in my sector) have been abroad where expat pays way more than any contracting position.
Clockwork Cupcake said:
Well, they're twits if they do. Not only is it unprofessional, and also usually a breach of contract, but it's also dickish behaviour.
However, being a dick is not the sole preserve of a contractor. Dickish people will behave dickishly, regardless of their tax status.
IIRC there was an earlier poster complaining that, as a result of IR35, he was going to have to downsize from a Porsche to a Lotus. It’s mild willy waving and (IMHO) it’s going to make the neutral observer think that ot’s only possible due to tax avoidance/evasion and therefore the HMRC clampdown is a “good thing”.However, being a dick is not the sole preserve of a contractor. Dickish people will behave dickishly, regardless of their tax status.
GT03ROB said:
Of course there is........ however......... for years now contractors have been shouting lodasmoney at the staffers, waving their turnover as if it's salary. A lot of contractors have been treating it as salary too. Hence the gnashing of teeth & moans about staffers getting holiday pay while contractors don't pre-IR35.
I work in Housing/Property/Development and rates never discussed with client staff, not even in jest.If client staff start asking questions about day rates, it is always played down, and the disadvantages of being a contractor/consultant are pointed out (no paid holiday etc etc).
Anyone who started upsetting clients and their staff by discussing day rates and other 'contractor/consultant advantages' wouldn't last 5 seconds and certainly wouldn't be invited back for the next project.
This is the UK, not the USA, and people do not take kindly to hearing how much someone is making.
I would suggest it was only oil/gas where the culture was 'rough enough' that people think it acceptable to go around laughing about their day rate in front go others.
i've never ever heard of a contractor behaving in a 'loadsamoney' manner, i think that is the biggest pile of st i have ever heard. They are in my experience almost always fade into the background types who just get on with the job with far less fanfare than even permies do... possibly because they don't have to continually shout about their achievements in order to receive decent performance management ratings and so on. I have also seen permies react very negatively to individual contractors almost as if they expect them to behave like this, even though they don't... maybe that is where the misconception arises.
t i have ever heard. They are in my experience almost always fade into the background types who just get on with the job with far less fanfare than even permies do... possibly because they don't have to continually shout about their achievements in order to receive decent performance management ratings and so on. I have also seen permies react very negatively to individual contractors almost as if they expect them to behave like this, even though they don't... maybe that is where the misconception arises.Blown2CV said:
i've never ever heard of a contractor behaving in a 'loadsamoney' manner, i think that is the biggest pile of st i have ever heard. They are in my experience almost always fade into the background types who just get on with the job with far less fanfare than even permies do... possibly because they don't have to continually shout about their achievements in order to receive decent performance management ratings and so on. I have also seen permies react very negatively to individual contractors almost as if they expect them to behave like this, even though they don't... maybe that is where the misconception arises.
Yep.t i have ever heard. They are in my experience almost always fade into the background types who just get on with the job with far less fanfare than even permies do... possibly because they don't have to continually shout about their achievements in order to receive decent performance management ratings and so on. I have also seen permies react very negatively to individual contractors almost as if they expect them to behave like this, even though they don't... maybe that is where the misconception arises.All the contractors/consultants I've worked with have been very quiet and just get on with the work type people. They come in quietly, do the work, be polite to everyone, try not to upset anyone or ruffle feathers, then move onto the next contact.
We even avoid the office banter as we know we are paid to do a job properly rather than mess about.
GT03ROB said:
I've worked O&G in the major EPC contractors at home & abroad. Contractor rates are well know from the contractors telling staff they are mugs........ until the industry turns down.
I’ve been 30 years as staff and contractor and can safely say that is not the case working in operators offices, the contractor wouldn’t last 5 mins if that was the case. worsy said:
Some of the crap being posted on linked in is starting to make me lose patience with contractors, and I was one two months ago.
https://www.linkedin.com/posts/ashishkulkarni_ir35...
He isn’t the brightest spark and quite emotional and irrational. Posting inaccurate and misplaced garbage. https://www.linkedin.com/posts/ashishkulkarni_ir35...
Countdown said:
IIRC there was an earlier poster complaining that, as a result of IR35, he was going to have to downsize from a Porsche to a Lotus.
That was me 
To be honest it was more of an attempt to windup Wormus after his dozens if not hundreds of posts of making smide remarks at contractors.
tighnamara said:
GT03ROB said:
I've worked O&G in the major EPC contractors at home & abroad. Contractor rates are well know from the contractors telling staff they are mugs........ until the industry turns down.
I’ve been 30 years as staff and contractor and can safely say that is not the case working in operators offices, the contractor wouldn’t last 5 mins if that was the case. I had an interesting conversation with my end-client last night.
It appears that they are not determining anyone inside or outside of IR35. They are simply implementing a blanket ban on PSCs.
How this impacts HMRC ability to "come after" contractors who stay with the same end-client after deeming themselves outside IR35 for month/years I don't know, but hopefully it gives a bit of protection.
It appears that they are not determining anyone inside or outside of IR35. They are simply implementing a blanket ban on PSCs.
How this impacts HMRC ability to "come after" contractors who stay with the same end-client after deeming themselves outside IR35 for month/years I don't know, but hopefully it gives a bit of protection.
CzechItOut said:
I had an interesting conversation with my end-client last night.
It appears that they are not determining anyone inside or outside of IR35. They are simply implementing a blanket ban on PSCs.
How this impacts HMRC ability to "come after" contractors who stay with the same end-client after deeming themselves outside IR35 for month/years I don't know, but hopefully it gives a bit of protection.
Think it's been mentioned in this thread but whilst it's probably not as bad as moving outside to inside in the same role I think there is still a risk. HMRC could still argue that the roll now paye should have been inside all along. I would not want the stress of an investigation even if I eventually won the argument. It appears that they are not determining anyone inside or outside of IR35. They are simply implementing a blanket ban on PSCs.
How this impacts HMRC ability to "come after" contractors who stay with the same end-client after deeming themselves outside IR35 for month/years I don't know, but hopefully it gives a bit of protection.
Clockwork Cupcake said:
GT03ROB said:
Of course there is........ however......... for years now contractors have been shouting lodasmoney at the staffers, waving their turnover as if it's salary. A lot of contractors have been treating it as salary too. Hence the gnashing of teeth & moans about staffers getting holiday pay while contractors don't pre-IR35.
bks they do. I have never discussed my rate with a client's employees, not even socially.Tim330 said:
Think it's been mentioned in this thread but whilst it's probably not as bad as moving outside to inside in the same role I think there is still a risk. HMRC could still argue that the roll now paye should have been inside all along. I would not want the stress of an investigation even if I eventually won the argument.
To be frank, I've only been with my end-client for 9 months, so if push comes to shove I'll just pay the tax. It's the "contractors" who've been with the same end client for 2-3 years or more and moved from project to project who should be stting themselves as they are clearly a hidden employee AND face a very large bill.Gassing Station | Jobs & Employment Matters | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff