Contractors: IR35 & general discussion

[worsy]

Olivera said:

worsy said:

That’s been done to death here. Chances are it will be via a brolly as dictated by the client. No point in covering all options in every single reply.

For the case in point it is unlikely the client would let/trust/allow the posters ltd to perform the PAYE calcs and deductions as the risk could be passed back, in the event the limited failed to pay correctly, and HMRC would then go after the rest of the chain.

If you work via an Umbrella Company then you are an employee of that Umbrella and are subject to PAYE as normal. You're *not* inside IR35 as the entirety of that legislation only applies to individuals that are providing services through a LTD company of which they are a shareholder.

Yes and your point is?

Olivera said:

I only understand your point here if you mean some companies are making IR35 assessments, judging inside, then refusing to engage on this basis, leaving PAYE Umbrella as one of the few remaining options.

The point is that with a PSC, payments will be made net. As I said, done to death and no point in explaining all the options if you are deemed inside for every post made.

Olivera said:

Regarding your second paragraph. If you are assessed as inside IR35 the fee payer (agency or end client) *must* make PAYE deductions. There are never any circumstances where the inside IR35 company must make PAYE deductions.

Edited by Olivera on Thursday 20th February 22:37

They must by law make deductions, but if they don't (they ignore the requirement), then liability MAY move back up the supply chain. Fee payer gone bust for example. This is why the end client needs to ensure the integrity of the supply chain, and why many dictate a preferred umbrella.

Tim330 said:

CaptainSlow said:

An umbrella can still make salary sacrifice pension contributions

Some will but the issue some contractors are facing is that if the client issues a blanket psc ban some are forcing contractors to use their preferred Umbrella company (or leave of course). If you then make a personal contribution you only save the tax, not both sets of NI.

Case in point.

Clear enough?

[g7orge]

Olivera said:

aeropilot said:

but for me the impact of that on the pension is my biggest gripe, especially with max 5 years left of working.....no way to recover unless I can find outside only roles.

Can you explain? Higher rate pension tax relief is still available as an employee.

as an employee you will get pension contributions from your employer - As a contractor PAYE you will not.

[Gazzab]

Has anyone had a good look at the various umbrella co’s? I need to urgently choose one but it seems like there are tons of questions to consider.
The client says I should choose from one of the following. Has anyone looked at the costs and benefits / disbenefits of any of these ones?
Brookson
JSA
Giant
Fore two
NASA
Orange Genie
Parasol
Paystream My Max
Umbrella-company

[Guvernator]

Gazzab said:

Has anyone had a good look at the various umbrella co’s? I need to urgently choose one but it seems like there are tons of questions to consider.
The client says I should choose from one of the following. Has anyone looked at the costs and benefits / disbenefits of any of these ones?
Brookson
JSA
Giant
Fore two
NASA
Orange Genie
Parasol
Paystream My Max
Umbrella-company

They are all pretty much of a muchness tbh. All charge similar fees to effectively run a payroll for you. The only benefits I can see of one over another is that some are more flexible over pension arrangements and holiday pay deductions, i.e. you can choose whether they deduct the 12-14% holiday from your gross depending on whether you plan to take holiday or not.

[aeropilot]

Gazzab said:

Has anyone had a good look at the various umbrella co’s? I need to urgently choose one but it seems like there are tons of questions to consider.
The client says I should choose from one of the following. Has anyone looked at the costs and benefits / disbenefits of any of these ones?
Brookson
JSA
Giant
Fore two
NASA
Orange Genie
Parasol
Paystream My Max
Umbrella-company

I'll be using the Brookson one as they are already my Ltd Co. accountants, and are offering a 'flex' system to dovetail between brolly and PSC should you get inside and outside work.

I've no experience of any of the others, although I do know a guy that used to use Giant before going permie last year, but have no useful info other than that.

[Gad-Westy]

Gazzab said:

Has anyone had a good look at the various umbrella co’s? I need to urgently choose one but it seems like there are tons of questions to consider.
The client says I should choose from one of the following. Has anyone looked at the costs and benefits / disbenefits of any of these ones?
Brookson
JSA
Giant
Fore two
NASA
Orange Genie
Parasol
Paystream My Max
Umbrella-company

I've not used one but it has been recommended to me on several occasions that they should FCSA approved. It's an unregulated industry so I think that is as close as it gets to reassurance. Don't take that as gospel, it's very much here say but worth reading up on.

[Too Late]

Anyone seen this?
https://youtu.be/GDBMdeTa9kk
Made me giggle.

[worsy]

Too Late said:

Anyone seen this?
https://youtu.be/GDBMdeTa9kk
Made me giggle.

Brilliant!

[V8mate]

worsy said:

Too Late said:

Anyone seen this?
https://youtu.be/GDBMdeTa9kk
Made me giggle.

Brilliant!

Is it? I didn't think it made one credible point.

A whiny 'I don't like change' message, by someone wondering who was going to deliver change programmes.

[worsy]

V8mate said:

worsy said:

Too Late said:

Anyone seen this?
https://youtu.be/GDBMdeTa9kk
Made me giggle.

Brilliant!

Is it? I didn't think it made one credible point.

A whiny 'I don't like change' message, by someone wondering who was going to deliver change programmes.

I think it's supposed to be humour, perhaps it went over your head.

[markyb_lcy]

Good news from my client (a very large global corporate player in the entertainment industry) for what it's worth ...

They are aiming to keep contractors outside of IR35. Part of their plan to do this involves moving away from the model of day/hourly rates and more towards a fixed price for project/service delivery within agreed timescales.

The process will be them stating what they want my company to achieve for them, me working out a schedule of the work and giving approximate timeline for delivery, pricing the work (where I will of course consider my previous "day rate") and then agreeing the fee.

Contract won't specify working hours in any way however the fact I will need to work with people who work normal office hours will (mostly) dictate the hours in which the work can be delivered.

I'm aiming to send the contract, when it lands, off for an IR35 review. I did this previously with a day-rate based contract and after some very minor changes it passed their analysis. I'm not expecting any change.

[V8mate]

worsy said:

V8mate said:

worsy said:

Too Late said:

Anyone seen this?
https://youtu.be/GDBMdeTa9kk
Made me giggle.

Brilliant!

Is it? I didn't think it made one credible point.

A whiny 'I don't like change' message, by someone wondering who was going to deliver change programmes.

I think it's supposed to be humour, perhaps it went over your head.

Play the ball, not the player, ahole.

[markyb_lcy]

V8mate said:

worsy said:

Too Late said:

Anyone seen this?
https://youtu.be/GDBMdeTa9kk
Made me giggle.

Brilliant!

Is it? I didn't think it made one credible point.

A whiny 'I don't like change' message, by someone wondering who was going to deliver change programmes.

I bet you're fun at dinner parties

Clearly the video was a bit of fun and pretty much nothing else.

[worsy]

V8mate said:

worsy said:

V8mate said:

worsy said:

Too Late said:

Anyone seen this?
https://youtu.be/GDBMdeTa9kk
Made me giggle.

Brilliant!

Is it? I didn't think it made one credible point.

A whiny 'I don't like change' message, by someone wondering who was going to deliver change programmes.

I think it's supposed to be humour, perhaps it went over your head.

Play the ball, not the player, ahole.

It was a fair shoulder barge.

[Countdown]

V8mate said:

worsy said:

Too Late said:

Anyone seen this?
https://youtu.be/GDBMdeTa9kk
Made me giggle.

Brilliant!

Is it? I didn't think it made one credible point.

A whiny 'I don't like change' message, by someone wondering who was going to deliver change programmes.

Was it really supposed to make a "credible" point? i thought it was just a tongue-in-cheek song about IR35 from the Contractors' point of view.

[Bluedot]

Gazzab said:

Has anyone had a good look at the various umbrella co’s? I need to urgently choose one but it seems like there are tons of questions to consider.
The client says I should choose from one of the following. Has anyone looked at the costs and benefits / disbenefits of any of these ones?
Brookson
JSA
Giant
Fore two
NASA
Orange Genie
Parasol
Paystream My Max
Umbrella-company

I tried starting an umbrella thread over here
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

not much interest though if I'm honest

[anonymous-user]

Note: This post contains Housing content. May not apply to your industry. Thought it might be useful to share as you can see what questions are asked.

I have spoken to a few other consultants I know within Housing/Property, and they say their various Housing Associations have started assessing them for IR35.

The good news is that so far, they are all being deemed 'outside' and told business as usual.

Below is the checklist that is being used by some Housing Associations to determine the IR35 status. The name/address/company/VAT sections have been deleted. Answers given are in bold.

The person who filled the below out was deemed 'outside'.

From discussions with the Associations, the question that seemed to carry the most weight was 'Do you trade with more than one client at a time' and when this is a Yes, it was described as virtually a 'sure thing' for being deemed 'outside', so make of that what you will. Pretty much all Housing consultants I know have 2 or 3 different clients on the go at any one time.


IR35 Assessment Checklist

Requirement:
Requirement Confirmed

Mutuality of Obligations:
You do not have a contract of employment with XXXXXX Housing.
Confirmed

You have no obligation to accept any contract to perform services offer by XXXXX Housing.
Confirmed

There is no commitment for XXXXXX Housing to provide you with work.
Confirmed

You are remunerated by XXXXXX Housing on a project basis, or at a fixed price.
Confirmed

You trade with more than one client at a time, or work on successive assignments with different clients.
Confirmed

Personal Services:
You have the right to send, at a cost to yourself, a substitute to do a job.
Confirmed

Any changes to the scope of the job will require a new contract.
Confirmed

Control:
You have the right to decide how and when a job is done.
Confirmed

Losses suffered will be borne by yourself. Rejected work will be corrected at your own cost. Any penalty clauses will be tolerated by you.
Confirmed

Sound management could result in you achieving a larger profit.
Confirmed

Administrative Obligations:
If relevant, you have paid the Data Protection Fee and have a valid and current entry on the Information Commissioner’s Office (ICO)’s Register of Fee Payers. You comply with the Data Protection Act 2018 and the Privacy and E Communications Regulations as well as the General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) and any amendment or replacement legislation from time to time, specifically through documentation including a Data Protection Policy, Privacy Notices and functional policies and procedures for dealing with data subject rights requests.
I comply with all relevent Data Protection policies wherever I work

You have Public Liability Insurance, Professional Indemnity Insurance and Employers’ Liability Insurance and confirm all are in the same name.
Confirmed

You file an annual return with HMRC.
Confirmed

If you are VAT registered, you pay VAT due to HMRC, submit required VAT returns and maintain VAT records and accounts. You consent to provide evidence of VAT returns filed and payments made to HMRC if requested. Please provide your VAT registration number below.
Confirmed

You have correct company information on your website.
Confirmed

In relation to IT and Websites, particularly where portals exist for customer logins, you confirm that you have suitable technical security measures as required by data protection legislation.
Confirmed

Upon request can provide policies that comply with Anti-Tax Evasion, Anti-Money Laundering, Anti-Bribery and Whistle Blowing.
Confirmed

You are and will continue to be fully compliant with the Criminal Finances Act 2017
Confirmed

Please provide details of any specific licences you hold or memberships (including licence / registration numbers where relevant).
Provided

[Olivera]

Lord Marylebone said:

From discussions with the Associations, the question that seemed to carry the most weight was 'Do you trade with more than one client at a time' and when this is a Yes, it was described as virtually a 'sure thing' for being deemed 'outside', so make of that what you will.

It is good that your end clients are actually attempting to assess status in a fair manner.

I'm confused though by their decision to use their own simple questionnaire rather than the HMRC CEST tool.

Also suggesting that multiple clients is the key outside IR35 indicator is factually incorrect. It is an indicator but only one of many. In fact it's a bit part indicator towards the end of the CEST tool, after many, many other more important questions.

[anonymous-user]

Olivera said:

It is good that your end clients are actually attempting to assess status in a fair manner.

I'm confused though by their decision to use their own simple questionnaire rather than the HMRC CEST tool.

Also suggesting that multiple clients is the key outside IR35 indicator is factually incorrect. It is an indicator but only one of many. In fact it's a bit part indicator towards the end of the CEST tool, after many, many other more important questions.

Indeed. That is why I said ‘make of that what you will’

I’m only guessing, but I assume that they feel you can’t possibly be compared to an employee of theirs if you work for others at the same time as you work for them, as that would never be the case if you were an employee.

[worsy]

Bluedot said:

Gazzab said:

Has anyone had a good look at the various umbrella co’s? I need to urgently choose one but it seems like there are tons of questions to consider.
The client says I should choose from one of the following. Has anyone looked at the costs and benefits / disbenefits of any of these ones?
Brookson
JSA
Giant
Fore two
NASA
Orange Genie
Parasol
Paystream My Max
Umbrella-company

I tried starting an umbrella thread over here
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

not much interest though if I'm honest

https://www.contractoruk.com/forums/umbrella-companies/