Contractors: IR35 & general discussion

[Deep Thought]

number2 said:

Countdown said:

Deep Thought said:

Flexi leave - i think you might have misconstrued that. Some companies offer the chance to accrue flexi leave. So if you have to work on some evening or two then you can get that back as time off in lieu. A contractor wont tend to get that. If you work on into an evening, its at your own expense.

As Contractor i thought that was the one of the biggest benefits - i.e. you decide your own time and place of work. You're not subject to direction and control so you can decide what you're going to do on any particular day, how many hours you're going to put in etc. Employees get flexi leave because they work longer hours some days - why is that not possible for Contractors?

Flexi-leave? Not common at all in the private sector, and where it is, it is for very junior, functional roles.

And yes, a large number of contractors are (have been) in disguised employment.

I'll reiterate - i'm not saying ALL employees get ALL those benefits.

And flexi-leave is still big in the public sector, which is still a large employment sector that many contractors may end up going to perm roles in.

[worsy]

Deep Thought said:

number2 said:

Countdown said:

Deep Thought said:

Flexi leave - i think you might have misconstrued that. Some companies offer the chance to accrue flexi leave. So if you have to work on some evening or two then you can get that back as time off in lieu. A contractor wont tend to get that. If you work on into an evening, its at your own expense.

As Contractor i thought that was the one of the biggest benefits - i.e. you decide your own time and place of work. You're not subject to direction and control so you can decide what you're going to do on any particular day, how many hours you're going to put in etc. Employees get flexi leave because they work longer hours some days - why is that not possible for Contractors?

Flexi-leave? Not common at all in the private sector, and where it is, it is for very junior, functional roles.

And yes, a large number of contractors are (have been) in disguised employment.

I'll reiterate - i'm not saying ALL employees get ALL those benefits.

And flexi-leave is still big in the public sector, which is still a large employment sector that many contractors may end up going to perm roles in.

Oh yeah, flexitime in the PS is a big benefit. My first job was Civil Service and I always ran a big deficit

[Deep Thought]

Countdown said:

Deep Thought said:

Flexi leave - i think you might have misconstrued that. Some companies offer the chance to accrue flexi leave. So if you have to work on some evening or two then you can get that back as time off in lieu. A contractor wont tend to get that. If you work on into an evening, its at your own expense.

As Contractor i thought that was the one of the biggest benefits - i.e. you decide your own time and place of work. You're not subject to direction and control so you can decide what you're going to do on any particular day, how many hours you're going to put in etc. Employees get flexi leave because they work longer hours some days - why is that not possible for Contractors?

Because typically contractors invoice per day.

[Deep Thought]

worsy said:

Oh yeah, flexitime in the PS is a big benefit. My first job was Civil Service and I always ran a big deficit

When i was in Santander we had 13 flexi periods per year and you could work up a day per period. It amounted to an extra 20 mins a day (standard working week was 35 hours work) to get 13 days extra leave per year.

[Countdown]

Deep Thought said:

Countdown said:

Deep Thought said:

Flexi leave - i think you might have misconstrued that. Some companies offer the chance to accrue flexi leave. So if you have to work on some evening or two then you can get that back as time off in lieu. A contractor wont tend to get that. If you work on into an evening, its at your own expense.

As Contractor i thought that was the one of the biggest benefits - i.e. you decide your own time and place of work. You're not subject to direction and control so you can decide what you're going to do on any particular day, how many hours you're going to put in etc. Employees get flexi leave because they work longer hours some days - why is that not possible for Contractors?

Because typically contractors invoice per day.

Yes. But you've quoted for a fixed piece of work at (for example)10 days . Surely you have the flexibility of doing that work in 5 days or 15 days (subject to any pre-agreed deadlines)?

[Deep Thought]

Countdown said:

Deep Thought said:

Countdown said:

Deep Thought said:

Flexi leave - i think you might have misconstrued that. Some companies offer the chance to accrue flexi leave. So if you have to work on some evening or two then you can get that back as time off in lieu. A contractor wont tend to get that. If you work on into an evening, its at your own expense.

As Contractor i thought that was the one of the biggest benefits - i.e. you decide your own time and place of work. You're not subject to direction and control so you can decide what you're going to do on any particular day, how many hours you're going to put in etc. Employees get flexi leave because they work longer hours some days - why is that not possible for Contractors?

Because typically contractors invoice per day.

Yes. But you've quoted for a fixed piece of work at (for example)10 days . Surely you have the flexibility of doing that work in 5 days or 15 days (subject to any pre-agreed deadlines)?

Maybe some contractors operate like that but most invoice per day. I do. Always have.

If i'm not working on a given day, then i dont bill for it.

[Olivera]

Countdown said:

Yes. But you've quoted for a fixed piece of work at (for example)10 days . Surely you have the flexibility of doing that work in 5 days or 15 days (subject to any pre-agreed deadlines)?

In the real world most PSC contractors & clients don't work to a fixed scope/price model, but instead usually work on a more agile (some would say modern) basis, and bill per day's work.

[Deep Thought]

Olivera said:

Countdown said:

Yes. But you've quoted for a fixed piece of work at (for example)10 days . Surely you have the flexibility of doing that work in 5 days or 15 days (subject to any pre-agreed deadlines)?

In the real world most PSC contractors & clients don't work to a fixed scope/price model, but instead usually work on a more agile (some would say modern) basis, and bill per day's work.

Indeed. I invoice for technical and consultancy services over a fixed period of time. Usually 3 or 6 months initially.

[Olivera]

Countdown said:

So effectively the same as Agency staff.

In the respect of how they bill (per day) - yes. In the respect of how they work (without significant direction & control) - no.

[Countdown]

Olivera said:

Countdown said:

So effectively the same as Agency staff.

In the respect of how they bill (per day) - yes. In the respect of how they work (without significant direction & control) - no.

Given that you're not contracted for a specific piece of work at the beginning of the Contract who decides what you do when you come in? And the fact that you cant choose how many hours you do on any particular day (thereby not having flexible working hours) it suggests that is an element of control.

FWIW I doubt anybody who's been in post for more than a month is subject to significant direction and control. Once people have had a certain level of training they should be able to come in and do what they're supposed to do without being told by their Manager.

[worsy]

Countdown said:

Olivera said:

Countdown said:

So effectively the same as Agency staff.

In the respect of how they bill (per day) - yes. In the respect of how they work (without significant direction & control) - no.

Given that you're not contracted for a specific piece of work at the beginning of the Contract who decides what you do when you come in? And the fact that you cant choose how many hours you do on any particular day (thereby not having flexible working hours) it suggests that is an element of control.

FWIW I doubt anybody who's been in post for more than a month is subject to significant direction and control. Once people have had a certain level of training they should be able to come in and do what they're supposed to do without being told by their Manager.

There is quite significant case law on this as you'll no doubt know. The point you make though is the view HMRC also hold.

Ironically as a perm employee, I have very little direction and control in my role.

[anonymous-user]

CX53 said:

bigandclever said:

Wormus used to be a contractor. When the arse fell out of his market, through no fault of his own, he had to go perm to eat.

Edited by bigandclever on Thursday 22 October 08:50

As I say then, inclination, skills or bks... Can be just one of those of all three!

I’m glad you ask. I was an IT developer though the dot com boom and did very well out of it but I lost the love for it when the bottom fell out of the market in 2001 and couldn’t get work anywhere. Not just me, the market was dead. I also realised I was better off climbing the greasy pole as a perm, to broaden my skills and lead people.

It’s more difficult to go this route and do what you’re told but then how many of us can really do what we like? I’ve got several hundred great contractors working for me as well as several hundred more wonderful permies but I’d not swap places with any of them as I’m really proud of what I’ve achieved and what I do.

So my advise to all the moaners is look at the opportunities open to you and work out what’s best for you. This isn’t the first time this has happened and it won’t be the last.

Edit: and if you do reach a very senior level as a perm, and add up how much you really cost, you’ll be amazed. That’s what you need to compare your day rates with.

Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 22 October 15:00

[Olivera]

wormus said:

I’m glad you ask. I was an IT developer though the dot com boom and did very well out of it but I lost the love for it when the bottom fell out of the market in 2001 and couldn’t get work anywhere. Not just me, the market was dead. I also realised I was better off climbing the greasy pole as a perm, to broaden my skills and lead people.

It’s more difficult to go this route and do what you’re told but then how many of us can really do what we like? I’ve got several hundred great contractors working for me as well as several hundred more wonderful permies but I’d not swap places with any of them as I’m really proud of what I’ve achieved and what I do.

So my advise to all the moaners is look at the opportunities open to you and work out what’s best for you. This isn’t the first time this has happened and it won’t be the last.

If you've got several hundred contractors working for you then why are you so thin skinned and vitriolic on this PH topic? Especially given you used to be one yourself?

[anonymous-user]

Olivera said:

If you've got several hundred contractors working for you then why are you so thin skinned and vitriolic on this PH topic? Especially given you used to be one yourself?

I wasn’t aware that I was. I’m just offering a different point of view as somebody who’s been there. I’m sure the market will adjust in time, it has before.

[bigandclever]

It’s important to have a different take on it anyway, more power to his elbow. I’ve no doubt he’s a lovely bloke but based on this thread maybe he’s occasionally more K N O B than I S T J

I’m still not going to forget “...sadly for you, it’s people like me who will determine how “lucrative” your future as a contractor will be.”

[anonymous-user]

bigandclever said:

It’s important to have a different take on it anyway, more power to his elbow. I’ve no doubt he’s a lovely bloke but based on this thread maybe he’s occasionally more K N O B than I S T J

I’m still not going to forget “...sadly for you, it’s people like me who will determine how “lucrative” your future as a contractor will be.”

Assuming you are referring to Myres Briggs, I’m actually INFP

https://www.16personalities.com/infp-personality

Which one are you?

[Gazzab]

Please not myres Briggs - take that crap to another thread. It’s bad enough your pretend cio ramblings but now this.

[bigandclever]

wormus said:

Assuming you are referring to Myres Briggs, I’m actually INFP

https://www.16personalities.com/infp-personality

Which one are you?

Having never done it, I’m not sure. A quick scan, I think I’d be INTP. As it is, after 20 years of contracting, actually running a business despite what people think, and what with one thing and your mother, I’m DOLE

Edited by bigandclever on Thursday 22 October 15:29

[Deep Thought]

Olivera said:

If you've got several hundred contractors working for you then why are you so thin skinned and vitriolic on this PH topic? Especially given you used to be one yourself?

Poacher turned gamekeeper?

Resents the money most contractors still get without having to "work" for it like he has to now in his "very senior level" role?

[Pit Pony]

wormus said:

Rubbish. I assume you are referring to the fact you couldn’t furlough? That’s probably because you took most of your income as dividends? You obviously like the convenience and tax efficiency of running your own business but claim you are an employee when it suits you? Cannot have it both ways.

Besides, IR35 preceded Covid by about 20 years so let’s not conflate the two.

I've managed to get £800 a month for May, June, July and August. Added to the income from property of £450, it was just enough to survive.