Contractors: IR35 & general discussion

[Clockwork Cupcake]

Countdown said:

I’m ashamed to admit Ive lifted the odd canoe.....

Damnit. I just corrected that typo and thought that I"d got away with it.

[PushedDover]

markyb_lcy said:

PushedDover said:

Gazzab said:

It’s irrelevant. You need to do your research. Countless people have been ‘re employed’ for the sole purpose of allowing them to claim furlough. He was employed by the umbrella and so they could furlough him. But they won’t.

ah, well in that case revert to the tough tits bit.


reemployment to cream off the top from the HMG pot is disingenuous, and should not be encouraged.

Yes and no. We will all be paying for it for the next decade or so. Perfectly understandable that people would want “their share” imo.

Your lack of morals and spine is noted

[Pit Pony]

Carl_Manchester said:

Pit Pony said:

I think I should be offering to do the job for £70k plus a lease EV (however range might be an issue as they are 145 miles away from me) and share options.
But wondering if I could suggest

In I.T still get plenty of perm emails at £65k base + benefits for outside of London if that’s any help. What type of role is it? Is it in I.T ?

I'm a chartered Manufacturing Engineer and Six Sigma Black Belt with project management experience of new product introduction. IT is not my field.
Contract with them is to do 2 things. ISO 9000:2015 implementation. And project management of 2 prototype development contracts for military customers.

I'm enjoying it because it's challenging me out of my comfort zone.

But I'd like a small share of the company. It sounds weird, but I'd even risk investing the spare in my LTD company in the firm.

[markyb_lcy]

PushedDover said:

markyb_lcy said:

PushedDover said:

Gazzab said:

It’s irrelevant. You need to do your research. Countless people have been ‘re employed’ for the sole purpose of allowing them to claim furlough. He was employed by the umbrella and so they could furlough him. But they won’t.

ah, well in that case revert to the tough tits bit.


reemployment to cream off the top from the HMG pot is disingenuous, and should not be encouraged.

Yes and no. We will all be paying for it for the next decade or so. Perfectly understandable that people would want “their share” imo.

Your lack of morals and spine is noted

For the record ... I have had nothing from the govt during this crisis and indeed I’ve resisted self-furloughing whilst I’m out of contract.

I’m just stating that I understand the position of others that choose to do differently.

I hope you’ll reconsider your rather rude comment.

[Pit Pony]

markyb_lcy said:

For the record ... I have had nothing from the govt during this crisis and indeed I’ve resisted self-furloughing whilst I’m out of contract.

I’m just stating that I understand the position of others that choose to do differently.

I hope you’ll reconsider your rather rude comment.

The Covid crisis was the direct cause of Rolls Royce telling QuEST global that they no longer saw sense in paying QuEST for most of the work they were outsourcing. QuEST immediately announced 192 redundancies and gave every contractor a weeks notice. On the 2 occasions in 11 years when I was given unplanned notice before my contact end date, it took a max of 3 weeks (including Christmas) to get a better offer and 4 weeks to start.
The furlough scheme was designed to help companies who have been impacted by Covid. Hence me making a claim from May to mid August. I listened to.Martin.Lewis and got as much as I was entitled to.

[PushedDover]

markyb_lcy said:

For the record ... I have had nothing from the govt during this crisis and indeed I’ve resisted self-furloughing whilst I’m out of contract.

I’m just stating that I understand the position of others that choose to do differently.

I hope you’ll reconsider your rather rude comment.

Reconsider what ?
You essentially said it was excusable, and in line with your politics on the whole I also note

Whether you’ve resisted for concerns of morals or fear of investigations we will never know. You never made that clear (and still haven’t)

Edited by PushedDover on Thursday 3rd December 22:49

[Clockwork Cupcake]

PushedDover said:

Reconsider what ?

In fairness, it was rather a "Holier than thou" comment and was somewhat confrontational.

[PushedDover]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

PushedDover said:

Reconsider what ?

In fairness, it was rather a "Holier than thou" comment and was somewhat confrontational.

He said :

"We will all be paying for it for the next decade or so. Perfectly understandable that people would want “their share” imo."


when talking of a sector or group or workers that proactively seek ways to prevent paying ‘their share’ through PAYE, and say they are due ‘their share’ and ‘understandable’ is positively risible.

To compound, he did endorse it with “imo”

My comment stands. Live by the sword by all means, but when the sword falls, one should not be surprised.



ETA Clockwork - is having a moral compass now equivical to 'Holier than thou" these days?

Edited by PushedDover on Thursday 3rd December 22:57

[Clockwork Cupcake]

PushedDover said:

No wonder a cupcake.

What does that even mean? Is that some kind of lame attempt at an insult to prove how you aren't confrontational? LOL

[markyb_lcy]

PushedDover said:

Reconsider what ?
You essentially said it was excusable, and in line with your politics on the whole I also note

Whether you’ve resisted for concerns of morals or fear of investigations we will never know. You never made that clear (and still haven’t)

Edited by PushedDover on Thursday 3rd December 22:49

My politics? What do you mean by that?!

I have no fear of investigation because I have nothing to hide and I frankly rather resent the suggestion.

I haven’t made a claim because financially I don’t need to, having built up significant retained profit. It is the start of Dec and opportunities for a new contract now are thin on the ground. Had I been in a different financial situation I would have no guilt in self-furloughing myself. There is a fair argument to support me doing it regardless of the retained profit, on account of the fact that covid was instrumental in me losing my contract (client with a 98% global loss of revenue since March) and continues to make new opportunities thin on the ground.

Honestly I think you should get down off your high horse.

[PushedDover]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

PushedDover said:

No wonder a cupcake.

What does that even mean? Is that some kind of lame attempt at an insult to prove how you aren't confrontational? LOL

And tbh -I also thought lame, in the same time it took you to comment, I edited it out.

[SarlechS]

I don't think the contracting market in IT will die a death when IR35 comes in April (even though i think it will be delayed again). There will always be a requirement for specialists or consultants to come in and deliver projects.

If the employers don't uplift the pay with the extra NI / Tax we pay (call it 20%) then all the decent contractors will flip back into a perm job and participate back in the corporate rat race only with more experience to take on the existing perms that are already there. only with the advantage that they are likely to have more experience (if they've been a career contractor). All the low level contractors will remain contracting with the 20% pay cut! - no holidays, no sick pay, no pension, shares, dental etc seems like a bad deal to me...they won't be providing any expertise or experience to the employer so its a lose lose situation for them.

Pay peanuts get monkeys!

[Olivera]

I have absolutely no moral problem with an Umbrella contractor being put on furlough, since government have after all contrived to legislate every genuine one man band PSC into PAYE.

If you're a PAYE employee then you can be furloughed, so suck it up.

[PushedDover]

markyb_lcy said:

My politics? What do you mean by that?!

I have no fear of investigation because I have nothing to hide and I frankly rather resent the suggestion.

I haven’t made a claim because financially I don’t need to, having built up significant retained profit. It is the start of Dec and opportunities for a new contract now are thin on the ground. Had I been in a different financial situation I would have no guilt in self-furloughing myself. There is a fair argument to support me doing it regardless of the retained profit, on account of the fact that covid was instrumental in me losing my contract (client with a 98% global loss of revenue since March) and continues to make new opportunities thin on the ground.

Honestly I think you should get down off your high horse.

pls throw aside the faux 'my politics' wail. We've sparred before, ergo an awareness of your politics.
Moving on:

Your talk of self furlough is different to what started this aspect and track. Your actions were not in question white knight.

The thread diversion, you defended, was how it is unfair an umbrella company won't take someone back on, post contract completion, to profit from the Furlough system and give payments to the contractor, and pocketing the cream.

You inferred how you feel it is fine to go claim what is or is not applicable in the concept of the motion of furlough because of a perceived "fair share"



throwing mud of 'high horse', or 'holier than thou' do not relieve an individual of what is right, and wrong and do not progress the discussion tbh

[PushedDover]

Olivera said:

I have absolutely no moral problem with an Umbrella contractor being put on furlough, since government have after all contrived to legislate every genuine one man band PSC into PAYE.

If you're a PAYE employee then you can be furloughed, so suck it up.

Post contract completion?

[markyb_lcy]

PushedDover said:

markyb_lcy said:

My politics? What do you mean by that?!

I have no fear of investigation because I have nothing to hide and I frankly rather resent the suggestion.

I haven’t made a claim because financially I don’t need to, having built up significant retained profit. It is the start of Dec and opportunities for a new contract now are thin on the ground. Had I been in a different financial situation I would have no guilt in self-furloughing myself. There is a fair argument to support me doing it regardless of the retained profit, on account of the fact that covid was instrumental in me losing my contract (client with a 98% global loss of revenue since March) and continues to make new opportunities thin on the ground.

Honestly I think you should get down off your high horse.

pls throw aside the faux 'my politics' wail. We've sparred before, ergo an awareness of your politics.
Moving on:

Your talk of self furlough is different to what started this aspect and track. Your actions were not in question white knight.

The thread diversion, you defended, was how it is unfair an umbrella company won't take someone back on, post contract completion, to profit from the Furlough system and give payments to the contractor, and pocketing the cream.

You inferred how you feel it is fine to go claim what is or is not applicable in the concept of the motion of furlough because of a perceived "fair share"



throwing mud of 'high horse', or 'holier than thou' do not relieve an individual of what is right, and wrong and do not progress the discussion tbh

We (and others here) probably have nothing to gain by carrying this on. What I do want to say though is that if you’re not prepared to debate “my politics” in the context of this chat, then perhaps you shouldn’t throw it around to score cheap points without any reference for the reader.

I said I could understand people “taking their share”, which I do, including the particular example requiring the umbrella company taking the employee back on. The govt even suggested this as a legitimate use of the scheme (albeit without specific reference to umbrella companies). As with tax, if you’re entitled to legally claim something without any bending of rules then I support anybody doing so. The fact we are all going to paying for it going forward and that so much of what has been borrowed has been handed out in corrupt circumstances is just an aside. I guess that would be “my politics”. YMMV

You questioned my morals and I felt it necessary to state my own personal position as I felt that what I said (and from how you replied) might have misrepresented that.

[PushedDover]

markyb_lcy said:

(albeit without specific reference to umbrella companies).

Or specifically not referencing umbrella companies??
That gives validation in your mind?

Every other trade known to the HMRC has been given leeway of one type or another- by type. the government has given guidelines to differentiate between a hair saloon and a nail saloon.

To suggest it is an oversight for umbrellas not to have specific reference ergo its ‘fine, carry on, included’ is also risible.

[markyb_lcy]

PushedDover said:

markyb_lcy said:

(albeit without specific reference to umbrella companies).

Or specifically not referencing umbrella companies??
That gives validation in your mind?

Every other trade known to the HMRC has been given leeway of one type or another- by type. the government has given guidelines to differentiate between a hair saloon and a nail saloon.

To suggest it is an oversight for umbrellas not to have specific reference ergo its ‘fine, carry on, included’ is also risible.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

I would say it is debatable. Some clarification either way would be welcome.

[PushedDover]

markyb_lcy said:

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

I would say it is debatable. Some clarification either way would be welcome.

Or- rely on your moral compass as stated above and you refuted

[markyb_lcy]

PushedDover said:

markyb_lcy said:

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

I would say it is debatable. Some clarification either way would be welcome.

Or- rely on your moral compass as stated above and you refuted

I think my position both personally and more widely is clear at this stage so we will need to agree to disagree for the benefit of the thread. Yes, my moral compass informs my decision in my circumstances as other's should theirs.