Contractors: IR35 & general discussion
Discussion
SarlechS said:
....with more experience to take on the existing perms that are already there. only with the advantage that they are likely to have more experience (if they've been a career contractor).
Who the hell do you think you are? Why on earth would a contractor with X years experience be better than a permie of X years experience?
I contracted for 21 years straight and saw good and bad permies and contractors - but I'll tell you one thing, the bad contractors I saw were far more prolific and often incompetent than bad permies.
Dog Star said:
SarlechS said:
....with more experience to take on the existing perms that are already there. only with the advantage that they are likely to have more experience (if they've been a career contractor).
Who the hell do you think you are? Why on earth would a contractor with X years experience be better than a permie of X years experience?
I contracted for 21 years straight and saw good and bad permies and contractors - but I'll tell you one thing, the bad contractors I saw were far more prolific and often incompetent than bad permies.
Not always the case, and there are good and bad contractors, just like there are good and bad perm staff.
In my time contracting i've only seen a small handful of "bad" contractors - and most of those were ditched after a few months or quickly moved on.
Dog Star said:
Who the hell do you think you are? Why on earth would a contractor with X years experience be better than a permie of X years experience?
I contracted for 21 years straight and saw good and bad permies and contractors - but I'll tell you one thing, the bad contractors I saw were far more prolific and often incompetent than bad permies.
A lot of the top flight contractors (ex colleagues and friends) who flip back perm normally go on to excel. As mentioned the bad contractors will remain contracting for -20% pay.
Hope you didn’t take offence
SarlechS said:
Average U.K. perm worker changes their job every 5 years. Average contractor will change 6-12 months. If they’ve been a a good career contractor you would expect them to have worked back to back for 10-20+ years. Having delivered many more projects in different industries/ sectors with more technologies with more processes. So by virtue your would expect them to have acquired more experience..I think that’s a given. You’re right just because a person works a perm job doesn’t mean they can’t be a better than a contractor. I said the career contractor is likely to have more experience than the average perm at the same level.
A lot of the top flight contractors (ex colleagues and friends) who flip back perm normally go on to excel. As mentioned the bad contractors will remain contracting for -20% pay.
Hope you didn’t take offence
No. I just think you're talking rubbish. A lot of the top flight contractors (ex colleagues and friends) who flip back perm normally go on to excel. As mentioned the bad contractors will remain contracting for -20% pay.
Hope you didn’t take offence
Changing every six to twelve months is not a good thing, by the way. It indicates a lack of continuity or full end to end project dev.
However if you want to rock into companies thinking that you're better than the perm staff in there then knock yourself out. Certainly not an arrogant approach I'd have taken, I did it for the money - certainly not something that's worth doing it for anymore.
Deep Thought said:
Dog Star said:
SarlechS said:
....with more experience to take on the existing perms that are already there. only with the advantage that they are likely to have more experience (if they've been a career contractor).
Who the hell do you think you are? Why on earth would a contractor with X years experience be better than a permie of X years experience?
I contracted for 21 years straight and saw good and bad permies and contractors - but I'll tell you one thing, the bad contractors I saw were far more prolific and often incompetent than bad permies.
Not always the case, and there are good and bad contractors, just like there are good and bad perm staff.
In my time contracting i've only seen a small handful of "bad" contractors - and most of those were ditched after a few months or quickly moved on.
There are very few good contractors and very few good permies. Most are, at best, average.
Back in the mid to late 90s, before the millennium bubble, contractors were generally top draw.
Project management is the best example of dross contractors. They get made redundant somewhere and so go contracting despite being totally rubbish. But because the client management are also so rubbish they keep working.
Project management is the best example of dross contractors. They get made redundant somewhere and so go contracting despite being totally rubbish. But because the client management are also so rubbish they keep working.
Gad-Westy said:
Yeah, I don't really buy the whole contractors are better then permies thing. There are sometimes common traits/mindsets but it's not like there are barriers to entry for either avenue. I've seen the full spectrum and can't say that I see much of a pattern in terms of ability.
Who said better?Gazzab said:
Deep Thought said:
Dog Star said:
SarlechS said:
....with more experience to take on the existing perms that are already there. only with the advantage that they are likely to have more experience (if they've been a career contractor).
Who the hell do you think you are? Why on earth would a contractor with X years experience be better than a permie of X years experience?
I contracted for 21 years straight and saw good and bad permies and contractors - but I'll tell you one thing, the bad contractors I saw were far more prolific and often incompetent than bad permies.
Not always the case, and there are good and bad contractors, just like there are good and bad perm staff.
In my time contracting i've only seen a small handful of "bad" contractors - and most of those were ditched after a few months or quickly moved on.
There are very few good contractors and very few good permies. Most are, at best, average.
I made a comment based on experience and common sense.
Sorry it doesnt follow your narrative.
Edited by Deep Thought on Friday 4th December 13:06
Deep Thought said:
Gazzab said:
Deep Thought said:
Dog Star said:
SarlechS said:
....with more experience to take on the existing perms that are already there. only with the advantage that they are likely to have more experience (if they've been a career contractor).
Who the hell do you think you are? Why on earth would a contractor with X years experience be better than a permie of X years experience?
I contracted for 21 years straight and saw good and bad permies and contractors - but I'll tell you one thing, the bad contractors I saw were far more prolific and often incompetent than bad permies.
Not always the case, and there are good and bad contractors, just like there are good and bad perm staff.
In my time contracting i've only seen a small handful of "bad" contractors - and most of those were ditched after a few months or quickly moved on.
There are very few good contractors and very few good permies. Most are, at best, average.
I made a comment based on experience and common sense.
Sorry it doesnt follow your narrative.
Edited by Deep Thought on Friday 4th December 13:06
Gazzab said:
Project management is the best example of dross contractors. They get made redundant somewhere and so go contracting despite being totally rubbish. But because the client management are also so rubbish they keep working.
And when you are the cream of the dross - you become a Programme Manager. 
Joking aside, much truth in the quoted comment.
Gazzab said:
But it’s just a misplaced opinion - backed up with non facts.
Its as valid as your opinion. And its a fact that contractors typically work for a company / on a project for maybe a 1-2 years and move on. They will have specific experience from various companies that a perm individual sitting in the same role maintaining the same system over the same timeframe wont get.
I'm not saying that means the contractor "better" than the perm person just that they may have more experience.
It genuinely surprises me that in your 21 years as a contractor you have been continually surrounded on projects by contractors who were average at best. Werent they lucky they all had you each time who bucked the trend.
Deep Thought said:
Its as valid as your opinion.
And its a fact that contractors typically work for a company / on a project for maybe a 1-2 years and move on. They will have specific experience from various companies that a perm individual sitting in the same role maintaining the same system over the same timeframe wont get.
I'm not saying that means the contractor "better" than the perm person just that they may have more experience.
It genuinely surprises me that in your 21 years as a contractor you have been continually surrounded on projects by contractors who were average at best. Werent they lucky they all had you each time who bucked the trend.
I’ve said this before - the bar for becoming a contractor is pretty low and anyone can do it. It’s just a lifestyle choice like being a temp. Being a contractor or perm is no indication of talent.And its a fact that contractors typically work for a company / on a project for maybe a 1-2 years and move on. They will have specific experience from various companies that a perm individual sitting in the same role maintaining the same system over the same timeframe wont get.
I'm not saying that means the contractor "better" than the perm person just that they may have more experience.
It genuinely surprises me that in your 21 years as a contractor you have been continually surrounded on projects by contractors who were average at best. Werent they lucky they all had you each time who bucked the trend.
wormus said:
Deep Thought said:
Its as valid as your opinion.
And its a fact that contractors typically work for a company / on a project for maybe a 1-2 years and move on. They will have specific experience from various companies that a perm individual sitting in the same role maintaining the same system over the same timeframe wont get.
I'm not saying that means the contractor "better" than the perm person just that they may have more experience.
It genuinely surprises me that in your 21 years as a contractor you have been continually surrounded on projects by contractors who were average at best. Werent they lucky they all had you each time who bucked the trend.
I’ve said this before - the bar for becoming a contractor is pretty low and anyone can do it. It’s just a lifestyle choice like being a temp. Being a contractor or perm is no indication of talent.And its a fact that contractors typically work for a company / on a project for maybe a 1-2 years and move on. They will have specific experience from various companies that a perm individual sitting in the same role maintaining the same system over the same timeframe wont get.
I'm not saying that means the contractor "better" than the perm person just that they may have more experience.
It genuinely surprises me that in your 21 years as a contractor you have been continually surrounded on projects by contractors who were average at best. Werent they lucky they all had you each time who bucked the trend.
Experience != talent.
Contractor != better.
T5R+ said:
Gazzab said:
Project management is the best example of dross contractors. They get made redundant somewhere and so go contracting despite being totally rubbish. But because the client management are also so rubbish they keep working.
And when you are the cream of the dross - you become a Programme Manager. Joking aside, much truth in the quoted comment.
I've been in tender meetings where the the Lead Consultant has said that the new system "will do XYZ", only to be told 6-12 months down the line that the system cant do XYZ because of " the way we've asked for the system to be configured". By that time you're normally invested £500k upwards into the installation of a new system which you'll probably have to write off IF you dump the Contractor
wormus said:
I’ve said this before - the bar for becoming a contractor is pretty low and anyone can do it. It’s just a lifestyle choice like being a temp. Being a contractor or perm is no indication of talent.
Maybe 10/15 years ago.I can remember starting contracts after a 5 min phone call with agencies.
Things have changed a lot now, the market is/was flooded with chancers seeing the easy money, even if they lasted a week or two, it was still easy money.
No gets hired off the back of CV's or LinkedIn pages now, the interviews are pretty tough these days with plenty of technical stuff.
I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule but that's my personal experience now anyway.
wormus said:
I’ve said this before - the bar for becoming a contractor is pretty low and anyone can do it . It’s just a lifestyle choice like being a temp. Being a contractor or perm is no indication of talent.
bit of a blanket statement to say the least. You won't be landing £800PD contracts because "anybody" can do it. Its normally because you are a specialist or have a series of skillsets that nobody else has Pit Pony said:
markyb_lcy said:
For the record ... I have had nothing from the govt during this crisis and indeed I’ve resisted self-furloughing whilst I’m out of contract.
I’m just stating that I understand the position of others that choose to do differently.
I hope you’ll reconsider your rather rude comment.
The Covid crisis was the direct cause of Rolls Royce telling QuEST global that they no longer saw sense in paying QuEST for most of the work they were outsourcing. QuEST immediately announced 192 redundancies and gave every contractor a weeks notice. On the 2 occasions in 11 years when I was given unplanned notice before my contact end date, it took a max of 3 weeks (including Christmas) to get a better offer and 4 weeks to start. I’m just stating that I understand the position of others that choose to do differently.
I hope you’ll reconsider your rather rude comment.
The furlough scheme was designed to help companies who have been impacted by Covid. Hence me making a claim from May to mid August. I listened to.Martin.Lewis and got as much as I was entitled to.
wormus said:
I’ve said this before - the bar for becoming a contractor is pretty low and anyone can do it. It’s just a lifestyle choice like being a temp. Being a contractor or perm is no indication of talent.
Tell me about it. It's a nightmare trying to sift through all the contractor roles advertised that ask for no experience.Gassing Station | Jobs & Employment Matters | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff