Contractors: IR35 & general discussion

[Gazzab]

Deep Thought said:

Its not the performance review itself, its the sitting through it monthly / quarterly and pretending to care when you could be doing other things, or that its going to make any real difference. Also its been listed as one of many things, rather than the "only" thing....

For all the talk of contractors just being told to go, i've never actually seen it. Bad ones tend to just not be renewed. Perhaps the very bad ones get turfed out but then it would be hard not to know yourself that was coming.

I have seen many contractors walked out of the office. I have had to walk out at least 20 myself over the years. Various reasons but normally related to inappropriate behaviour, criminal issues, lying, stealing etc. I once ran a team of about 500 or more who were probably 5% perm, 30% big 4 and 65% contractors. Because we had to mobilise quickly we found too many coke heads, charlatans, liars, dishonest etc people. Even when caught red handed and marched off the premises they would bleat and threaten legal action (and then go quiet and disappear). The best one was someone who had just got out of prison for a huge fraud, had changed his name, got friends to lie for his reference etc. I googled him as thought he was atrocious at his job. After a bit of surfing I found his history. I grabbed him at the office l, he denied it, we marched him out, then checked out his work laptop to find he had been emailing stuff and his wife had been doing his work for him and emailing it in.... if someone is just a bit rubbish (which might not always be their fault ie it could be the situation) we would normally just serve notice and sometimes pay them in lieu of notice (but try and do it all politely).

[Countdown]

Gazzab said:

Countdown said:

Out of interest what are the "office politics" that Contractors avoid that Permies are subject to?

Really?

Yep really. But as I said that might just be because I’m thick-skinned and don’t pick up on any of it. The dreaded “appraisals” are 3 or 4 times a year so hardly onerous. Pay rises/bonus targets are (in my case anyway) usually set out at the start of the year based on certain targets so again everybody knows what’s expected.

YMMV.

[Gazzab]

Countdown said:

Gazzab said:

Countdown said:

Out of interest what are the "office politics" that Contractors avoid that Permies are subject to?

Really?

Yep really. But as I said that might just be because I’m thick-skinned and don’t pick up on any of it. The dreaded “appraisals” are 3 or 4 times a year so hardly onerous. Pay rises/bonus targets are (in my case anyway) usually set out at the start of the year based on certain targets so again everybody knows what’s expected.

YMMV.

Appraisals aren’t politics - well they shouldn’t be.... ultimately both perms and contractors have politics to deal with. As a contractor you can see the temporary side of it.

[wombleh]

I always took office politics to be the gossip and personal drama that people bring into the office, the permie aspect being where it’s folk sucking up to try and get promoted. If you’re just in to do a specific task and leave then you’re much less likely to get involved than a team member but by no means are contractors immune from it, depends more on the individual.

[Gazzab]

wombleh said:

I always took office politics to be the gossip and personal drama that people bring into the office, the permie aspect being where it’s folk sucking up to try and get promoted. If you’re just in to do a specific task and leave then you’re much less likely to get involved than a team member but by no means are contractors immune from it, depends more on the individual.

It’s all to do with power and authority and the resultant behaviours that waste money, create delay, do the wrong thing, stop people from speaking up etc
I liked the example earlier in this thread that suggested ‘everyone in my company is happy to work here and I am great boss’. That’s a perfect example.

[768]

Gazzab said:

Appraisals aren’t politics - well they shouldn’t be.... ultimately both perms and contractors have politics to deal with. As a contractor you can see the temporary side of it.

In my last permie role I was hired at one grade, told they were toying with giving me a grade above but would give it to me at appraisal six months in, then told I couldn't get promotion at my first appraisal, then my lead and his lead scored me for promotion along with one other person with the same scores (after a ridiculous process naturally). The names and scores were sent elsewhere and it came back that a moderation process resulted in the other guy getting promotion. I pushed for an explanation as to how two people with the same scores were moderated to different outcomes, there wasn't one. Then a director who'd never spoken to me told me not to worry, there was a role for me two grades above that he'd give me. Three weeks later having posted my resignation he emailed me to say the role had gone away.

This is a company that had about 100k employees.

As a contractor even at a small company it's just pay my rate or don't.

[Deep Thought]

Gazzab said:

Countdown said:

Gazzab said:

Countdown said:

Out of interest what are the "office politics" that Contractors avoid that Permies are subject to?

Really?

Yep really. But as I said that might just be because I’m thick-skinned and don’t pick up on any of it. The dreaded “appraisals” are 3 or 4 times a year so hardly onerous. Pay rises/bonus targets are (in my case anyway) usually set out at the start of the year based on certain targets so again everybody knows what’s expected.

YMMV.

Appraisals aren’t politics - well they shouldn’t be.... ultimately both perms and contractors have politics to deal with. As a contractor you can see the temporary side of it.

They form part of it though. You get a particular grade, your colleagues get a particular grade, this forms part of your yearly review, which goes to your pay review. You feel your worth more than Dave, you find out Dave is better paid, gets more than you, etc, etc.

As you get older you likely care less anyway, but its still all part of the "hassle" part of permie work that you dont have to be bothered with as a contractor. Not paid enough? Think you're worth more? No need to complain or talk to HR or raise it at your next appraisal with your manager and hope it maybe gets sorted next year - just find a better paying contract, simples.

[Blown2CV]

Gazzab said:

Appraisals aren’t politics - well they shouldn’t be.... ultimately both perms and contractors have politics to deal with. As a contractor you can see the temporary side of it.

they aren't a symptom of politics, but they are mired in politics and lack of fairness. Unless you've got an exec supporter to present you unfairly positively then you get fked. fk or be fked. Maybe if you're a CEO then you have a jaundiced view of structured performance management but trust me, everyone fking hates it.

[Countdown]

Deep Thought said:

They form part of it though. You get a particular grade, your colleagues get a particular grade, this forms part of your yearly review, which goes to your pay review. You feel your worth more than Dave, you find out Dave is better paid, gets more than you, etc, etc.

As you get older you likely care less anyway, but its still all part of the "hassle" part of permie work that you dont have to be bothered with as a contractor. Not paid enough? Think you're worth more? No need to complain or talk to HR or raise it at your next appraisal with your manager and hope it maybe gets sorted next year - just find a better paying contract, simples.

The same thing applies to permies. Every job I've moved to (apart from once) has been at least partly because it was better paid. Regardless of whether you're a Permie OR a Contractor, if you believe that you're worth more why wouldn't you move or what's stopping you from moving?

[Countdown]

Blown2CV said:

they aren't a symptom of politics, but they are mired in politics and lack of fairness. Unless you've got an exec supporter to present you unfairly positively then you get fked. fk or be fked. Maybe if you're a CEO then you have a jaundiced view of structured performance management but trust me, everyone fking hates it.

Sorry this is possibly something for a new thread but how would you

- find out how your direct reports are getting on
- find out what they want to do next in terms of their career
- find out how you or the Company can help them
- find out what/who is p155ing them off (so that maybe you could do something about it)
- let them know about things they need to focus on in terms of quality/quantity of work and what they might be doing to p155 other people off?

I know the standard PH Director answer is "I take them down the Pub and we thrash it out over a few beers, hell I've even had a few punch-ups with my direct reports when I've had to sort them aht but its all water under the bridge and they thanked me for it "

My view is there needs to be some kind of regular communication between Line manager/Employee. It can happen once a day or it can happen once a year call it an appraisal a catchup. a chat over a coffee. HOW that happens/what form it takes varies from individual to individual. Having a one-way meeting where the Boss tells the employee how good/bad he's been is something that went out in the 80's (or should have)

[Deep Thought]

Countdown said:

Deep Thought said:

They form part of it though. You get a particular grade, your colleagues get a particular grade, this forms part of your yearly review, which goes to your pay review. You feel your worth more than Dave, you find out Dave is better paid, gets more than you, etc, etc.

As you get older you likely care less anyway, but its still all part of the "hassle" part of permie work that you dont have to be bothered with as a contractor. Not paid enough? Think you're worth more? No need to complain or talk to HR or raise it at your next appraisal with your manager and hope it maybe gets sorted next year - just find a better paying contract, simples.

The same thing applies to permies. Every job I've moved to (apart from once) has been at least partly because it was better paid. Regardless of whether you're a Permie OR a Contractor, if you believe that you're worth more why wouldn't you move or what's stopping you from moving?

True, but i think a lot of permies are in their role and thats it. They buy in to the process as it were - for a period of time at least.

[Gazzab]

Blown2CV said:

Gazzab said:

Appraisals aren’t politics - well they shouldn’t be.... ultimately both perms and contractors have politics to deal with. As a contractor you can see the temporary side of it.

they aren't a symptom of politics, but they are mired in politics and lack of fairness. Unless you've got an exec supporter to present you unfairly positively then you get fked. fk or be fked. Maybe if you're a CEO then you have a jaundiced view of structured performance management but trust me, everyone fking hates it.

The best bit was the bell curve. Then having to tell each % group why they were rubbish, average, good or fab with little relation to objectivity.

[Blown2CV]

Countdown said:

Blown2CV said:

they aren't a symptom of politics, but they are mired in politics and lack of fairness. Unless you've got an exec supporter to present you unfairly positively then you get fked. fk or be fked. Maybe if you're a CEO then you have a jaundiced view of structured performance management but trust me, everyone fking hates it.

Sorry this is possibly something for a new thread but how would you

- find out how your direct reports are getting on
- find out what they want to do next in terms of their career
- find out how you or the Company can help them
- find out what/who is p155ing them off (so that maybe you could do something about it)
- let them know about things they need to focus on in terms of quality/quantity of work and what they might be doing to p155 other people off?

I know the standard PH Director answer is "I take them down the Pub and we thrash it out over a few beers, hell I've even had a few punch-ups with my direct reports when I've had to sort them aht but its all water under the bridge and they thanked me for it "

My view is there needs to be some kind of regular communication between Line manager/Employee. It can happen once a day or it can happen once a year call it an appraisal a catchup. a chat over a coffee. HOW that happens/what form it takes varies from individual to individual. Having a one-way meeting where the Boss tells the employee how good/bad he's been is something that went out in the 80's (or should have)

Bit O/T now...

We aren't really talking about all the same things. Many of things in there are not specifically part of the formalities of the performance management process... they are more about coaching, mentoring, general line management stuff, which is yes related but not part of it as such. Anyway, i'm not saying there is no value in performance management, just that it is almost impossible to get right at scale. If you make it too objective and evidence-based (as is the crack addiction of big corporations) then it becomes too cumbersome and restrictive. if you dispense with process then you make it too subjective and very unfair, and creates lots of regional variations and things.

Employees want to be coached to success, but in most organisations their line manager isn't the gatekeeper of that success. A formal process picks out the obviously very high achievers (in which case they never needed a formal process to demonstrate it) and then smooshes everyone else into 2 groups: the 'average' group, and a small group of stheads AKA PIP candidates. There are inherently very few of the high and low people... the 'average' bit is the largest bit of the bell curve, so contains almost all the employees... but this means that it contains people across the whole spectrum from those who just missed out on the highest accolades, down to those who just managed to avoid disciplinary. People do fking hate performance management, because it doesn't really work.

[Blown2CV]

Gazzab said:

Blown2CV said:

Gazzab said:

Appraisals aren’t politics - well they shouldn’t be.... ultimately both perms and contractors have politics to deal with. As a contractor you can see the temporary side of it.

they aren't a symptom of politics, but they are mired in politics and lack of fairness. Unless you've got an exec supporter to present you unfairly positively then you get fked. fk or be fked. Maybe if you're a CEO then you have a jaundiced view of structured performance management but trust me, everyone fking hates it.

The best bit was the bell curve. Then having to tell each % group why they were rubbish, average, good or fab with little relation to objectivity.

the st ones are obviously st and then very good ones are often obviously very good... so what's the fking point!! In my previous job, as one of the regional leadership team I'd sit on these fking 'round-table' calls where line managers present their people and bid for their ratings. I mean days and days of 14 hours on calls or in the office. Nearly all the time spent was line managers wanting the best for their own people (clearly) but being smacked down... i mean 'levelled' because they have no perspective or interest in how good their team is compared to others... they just promise their guys promotion and top ratings often with little basis. "good guy, good guy" etc

[Olivera]

Gazzab said:

The best bit was the bell curve. Then having to tell each % group why they were rubbish, average, good or fab with little relation to objectivity.

A forced bell curve distribution is such a risible system, yet large employers often use it.

[Gazzab]

Olivera said:

Gazzab said:

The best bit was the bell curve. Then having to tell each % group why they were rubbish, average, good or fab with little relation to objectivity.

A forced bell curve distribution is such a risible system, yet large employers often use it.

And then a handful of peeved people go to HR with their objective ‘evidence’ eg feedback along the lines of ‘Fred is the best project manager I have ever worked for’. HR then forget about the bell curve and suggest the rating is raised. So glad I haven’t had to be part of that process for the last 15 years and only 5 of the last 25 years.

[T5R+]

Am a strange PM as report to the UK Board whilst "my" team comprises the Senior Management Team. Do not actually undertake appraisals but my input and opinion is sought to gauge performance and bonus awards. Luckily, everyone knows that I do play games/politics as am there to deliver key initiative(s). It has been said that I can be diplomatic and equally brutal when required but never accused of playing politics even though see it.

I attend State Of Nation and receive Christmas hampers plus regular "gifts" as per staff whilst everyone is clear that I am a consultant/interim/tosser/etc. Come and go as I please with the autonomy to deliver/spend and flex as I choose, as long as hit the agreed key milestones. MD jokes that I am the "fall guy" for the Global Board if it all goes wrong.

Point of post - I really am treated as "one of the family" and feel valued which really works for my "Maslow's needs" BUT equally under zero illusion that I am a "hired help who is expendable" and can be ejected with virtually zero notice nor "rights".

[Gazzab]

T5R+ said:

Am a strange PM as report to the UK Board whilst "my" team comprises the Senior Management Team. Do not actually undertake appraisals but my input and opinion is sought to gauge performance and bonus awards. Luckily, everyone knows that I do play games/politics as am there to deliver key initiative(s). It has been said that I can be diplomatic and equally brutal when required but never accused of playing politics even though see it.

I attend State Of Nation and receive Christmas hampers plus regular "gifts" as per staff whilst everyone is clear that I am a consultant/interim/tosser/etc. Come and go as I please with the autonomy to deliver/spend and flex as I choose, as long as hit the agreed key milestones. MD jokes that I am the "fall guy" for the Global Board if it all goes wrong.

Point of post - I really am treated as "one of the family" and feel valued which really works for my "Maslow's needs" BUT equally under zero illusion that I am a "hired help who is expendable" and can be ejected with virtually zero notice nor "rights".

I’d delete this post as hmrc will read this as an inside determination.

[T5R+]

Gazzab said:

I’d delete this post as hmrc will read this as an inside determination.

Totally agree with you. Which shows what a farce the system is.

Typically go into businesses for 6 to 18months working solely for myself - sometimes a professional PM Company will source me with a "finders fee" billed to client and leave it between me and client.

Some businesses treat me as professional and human being (such as current client) whilst others as a second-class citizen. I left full time "Blue Chip" 2 decades ago and have been contracting thereafter. Delivered for over a dozen different contracts/clients since then dotted around the globe. Thoroughly enjoy what I do and lucky to be "employed".

Naturally, have been through various "key factors which determine your IR35 status". The tools and assessors who have looked at my contract(s) determine "outside" but then again HMRC sometimes seem to have their own rules/interpretations. Each one of us has to determine their own status and be able to defend/justify if challenged.

HMRC would go into meltdown if they thought that I had a reserved parking space, "staff discount in the restaurant", supplied PPE, freeebies, security pass, client supplied I-Phone, etc, etc.

[Clockwork Cupcake]

T5R+ said:

HMRC would go into meltdown if they thought that I had a reserved parking space, "staff discount in the restaurant", supplied PPE, freeebies, security pass, client supplied I-Phone, etc, etc.

Justifiably so. That rather smells of being "part and parcel" of the client's organisation to me.