Contractors: IR35 & general discussion

[Salted_Peanut]

Countdown said:

Having a one-way meeting where the Boss tells the employee how good/bad he's been is something that went out in the 80's (or should have)

+1. Precisely.

Personnel Today said:

To say reaction to the news that Accenture will be ditching its annual appraisal (for all of its 330,000 staff) has been euphoric would be an understatement.

“People are breathing a huge sigh of relief,” says Tom Marsden, CEO at people analytics company Saberr, which works with Deloitte – another “big four” consultancy that has also recently turned its back on the annual review. “Less formality, more agility”

Adam Hale, CEO of HR software company Fairsail, says: “Annually appraising employees using antiquated, standalone systems and establishing objectives that aren’t aligned with the company’s values and goals is undoubtedly (and for the better) a thing of the past.

News that Accenture – a former employer of mine – is doing away with formal appraisals is welcome news for the wider HR industry. At Fairsail we don’t hold formal appraisals because we see them as rigid and unproductive. Almost all the conversations we have with progressive companies back up this movement.

Business’ emphasis should be on instant recognition instead, whether it’s from peers or management. Open communication at all levels breeds better working relationships, which leads in turn to improved productivity, lower turnover and greater levels of innovation.”

“I’m painfully aware of appraisals at Accenture – I worked in talent management there for eight years,” adds Lorna Carmichael, now chief talent officer at marketing agency DigitasLBi.

“Finally, Accenture has stuck its head above the parapet, by saying annual appraisals are ineffective,” says Andy Campbell, HCM strategy director at software company Oracle.

The ardour with which experts now deride the appraisal suggests that it is almost like Accenture has given them permission to expose an HR process they have always believed is broken, but have been always been too scared to speak up.

[Pit Pony]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

T5R+ said:

HMRC would go into meltdown if they thought that I had a reserved parking space, "staff discount in the restaurant", supplied PPE, freeebies, security pass, client supplied I-Phone, etc, etc.

Justifiably so. That rather smells of being "part and parcel" of the client's organisation to me.

I got paranoid when someone years ago gave me a Bottle of wine at Christmas and insisted I attend the team Christmas do at thier expense. I refused both.

[Gazzab]

Pit Pony said:

Clockwork Cupcake said:

T5R+ said:

HMRC would go into meltdown if they thought that I had a reserved parking space, "staff discount in the restaurant", supplied PPE, freeebies, security pass, client supplied I-Phone, etc, etc.

Justifiably so. That rather smells of being "part and parcel" of the client's organisation to me.

I got paranoid when someone years ago gave me a Bottle of wine at Christmas and insisted I attend the team Christmas do at thier expense. I refused both.

My client asked me last week if they could send me a mouse, keyboard and monitor. No thanks I buy my own. Am just completing my qdos questionnaire.

[anonymous-user]

My two pence worth on the Contractor Vs Permanent thing:

I love the excitement of a return to unemployment on a regular basis.

Every time I complete a project for a client and they no longer need me, I love walking out of their office for the last time.

You know the amazing feeing when you resign from a job or walk out on your last day? Like all the worries have gone. It’s like that every few months for me.

I enjoy being like ‘The Littlest Hobo’. Always moving on. Never knowing where I’ll end up next, or how long I’ll be out of work for.

I’m a consultant rather than a contractor, and I get to work on loads of interesting projects. Stuff I would never get the chance of if I was a permanent staff member with a fixed role.

People ring me up randomly and say “Fancy working on this for a couple of months?” and it is often something I haven’t done before.

I have been a consultant for 6 years now and I don’t miss being a permanent employee one single bit.

When I was an employee for 16 years I hated all the baggage that came with it.

The ‘annual appraisals’, the 1:1’s, the team meetings, incompetent managers, being told what to do, being talked down to or patronised by senior management, having to fill in stupid forms about “Where I see myself in the organisation in 12 months time”, office politics, having to pretend to like the fictitious ‘core values’ of the business, having to adhere to the customs and rules of that business, having to bite my tongue all the time becuase ‘rocking the boat’ or speaking your mind is frowned upon.

I can now go to a client and do nothing but crack on with the actual work and delivering the project. I can speak freely and tell them exactly what I think of the way they do things, good or bad. I can make decisions on things quickly without having to check with 50 different people if they agree with my choice.

I can sit in meetings with senior managers, directors and CEO’s and know that we are on the same level. I’m there because they value me and my work. I’m not there to be spoken to like they would speak to one of the employees further down the company. I’m not there to bow and scrape and be a ‘yes man’.

I can be unemployed for 5 months of the year and still earn the same as someone in senior management without having ANY of the responsibilities they do, such as managing staff or managing a department, or being responsible for policy and performance.

It’s just me, my laptop, and the work.

Someone saying “sorry, it’s been great but we don’t need you anymore as the project has now been completed” is simply the opportunity for a nice few weeks off before doing something else.

Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 7th March 17:33

[Gazzab]

When is a ‘consultant’ not a ‘contractor’. I tend to help boards fix big problems and so am not given a spec, not expected to produce specified ‘outputs’....I help define the problem, I fix it. I am a contractor and/or a consultant and/or an interim. I often have months between clients.

[Countdown]

Lord Marylebone said:

Someone saying “sorry, it’s been great but we don’t need you anymore as the project has now been completed” is simply the opportunity for a nice few weeks off before doing something else.

Edited by Lord Marylebone on Sunday 7th March 17:33

If you're working on a pre-agreed fixed-scope project surely "YOU" know when it's finished before anybody else (or you'll certainly have a good idea that you're close to the end)

Also isn't the payment fixed for the job, so the sooner you finish the sooner you can start your next job? My point being why should they be sorry that they don't need you any more? A builder isn't sorry when he's built an extension, a mechanic isn't sorry when he's replaced a gearbox etc etc

[anonymous-user]

Gazzab said:

When is a ‘consultant’ not a ‘contractor’. I tend to help boards fix big problems and so am not given a spec, not expected to produce specified ‘outputs’....I help define the problem, I fix it. I am a contractor and/or a consultant and/or an interim. I often have months between clients.

I guess you can use the terms interchangeably to a large extent.

In my head I think of a contractor or interim as someone who is brought into a business to perform a well defined role for a period of time. To carry out a task that has been identified. The business will pretty much tell them exactly what needs doing and they carry out the work. They are essentially providing additional manpower as and when required.

A consultant is someone brought in to provide expertise, skills, or decision making capabilities that the business does not possess. They come in to solve a problem, write a report, create a plan of action, or deliver a project that the company could not manage to do itself.

I’m happy for others to have a totally different opinions on what a contractor or consultant is, but that is how I view it.

[anonymous-user]

Countdown said:

Lord Marylebone said:

Someone saying “sorry, it’s been great but we don’t need you anymore as the project has now been completed” is simply the opportunity for a nice few weeks off before doing something else.

If you're working on a pre-agreed fixed-scope project surely "YOU" know when it's finished before anybody else (or you'll certainly have a good idea that you're close to the end)

Also isn't the payment fixed for the job, so the sooner you finish the sooner you can start your next job? My point being why should they be sorry that they don't need you any more? A builder isn't sorry when he's built an extension, a mechanic isn't sorry when he's replaced a gearbox etc etc

Yes, I’ll have a good idea of when the work will be finished, but in some cases the work keeps getting extended as they keep finding more problems for you to solve once you are there, so the end date can often vary quite a lot. If that happens you can end up being somewhere for weeks or even months after you were expected to finish. When that happens you just keep on working at the day rate that was agreed before you started.

The company I do my work via will quote either a day rate for me, or give a fixed price for the assignment. It just depends entirely what it is. But when they quote a fixed price for an assignment, they also quote a day rate as well, in case the project gets extended or expanded.

It’s around 50:50 usually. Half the time it’ll be a fixed price for a fixed project and once it’s finished I say thanks and leave. The rest of the time the client won’t really know what they want or how big the job is until we get stuck into it, so they just agree a day rate, and you can end up there for quite some time.

[WhiskyDisco]

Pit Pony said:

I got paranoid when someone years ago gave me a Bottle of wine at Christmas and insisted I attend the team Christmas do at thier expense. I refused both.

Before I moved into the dark side I spent a few good years contracting in The City. My fellow associates in the "contractor mafia" would never eat in the staff restaurant (working or liquid lunch only) and although we did sometimes get invited to staff Xmas lunches more often than not we would be excluded from the celebrations.

Nevermind, we used to have our annual "Contractors Xmas Party" (special permy guests invited, and looked after by us all) and we would have fun doing our best to exceed the permy allowance for their party (which was about a £25 contribution from the employer). Before the smoking ban we would end up drinking whisky and puffing on phat cigars...mostly because that's what our permy colleagues did not do.

Regards bottles of wine, I was never offered one but every year I would give one or two bottles as a gift to people who had made my life more bearable. I recall I would (try to) claim the expense too!

[Olivera]

Last day at my current client tomorrow - decided to take a break of a few months up to a few years if I fancy.

Anyone else taken a long term break from contracting and just done as you wish? What did you get up to?

[aeropilot]

Lord Marylebone said:

When I was an employee for 16 years I hated all the baggage that came with it.

The ‘annual appraisals’, the 1:1’s, the team meetings, incompetent managers, being told what to do, being talked down to or patronised by senior management, having to fill in stupid forms about “Where I see myself in the organisation in 12 months time”, office politics, having to pretend to like the fictitious ‘core values’ of the business, having to adhere to the customs and rules of that business, having to bite my tongue all the time becuase ‘rocking the boat’ or speaking your mind is frowned upon.

I can now go to a client and do nothing but crack on with the actual work and delivering the project. I can speak freely and tell them exactly what I think of the way they do things, good or bad. I can make decisions on things quickly without having to check with 50 different people if they agree with my choice.

I can sit in meetings with senior managers, directors and CEO’s and know that we are on the same level. I’m there because they value me and my work. I’m not there to be spoken to like they would speak to one of the employees further down the company. I’m not there to bow and scrape and be a ‘yes man’.

I can be unemployed for 5 months of the year and still earn the same as someone in senior management without having ANY of the responsibilities they do, such as managing staff or managing a department, or being responsible for policy and performance.

I agree, that was what I loved about it.

Sadly, by the end of the month that will be history for me, as the chances of an outside IR35 job doing what I do is close to nil, as all the large end clients that have traditionally needed a service I provided have all gone the same way.......blanket inside if they 'have' to take anyone on....or, even worse, most have already made arrangements to outsource to their Indian/Far East sub-contractors instead.

[kingston12]

aeropilot said:

Lord Marylebone said:

When I was an employee for 16 years I hated all the baggage that came with it.

The ‘annual appraisals’, the 1:1’s, the team meetings, incompetent managers, being told what to do, being talked down to or patronised by senior management, having to fill in stupid forms about “Where I see myself in the organisation in 12 months time”, office politics, having to pretend to like the fictitious ‘core values’ of the business, having to adhere to the customs and rules of that business, having to bite my tongue all the time becuase ‘rocking the boat’ or speaking your mind is frowned upon.

I can now go to a client and do nothing but crack on with the actual work and delivering the project. I can speak freely and tell them exactly what I think of the way they do things, good or bad. I can make decisions on things quickly without having to check with 50 different people if they agree with my choice.

I can sit in meetings with senior managers, directors and CEO’s and know that we are on the same level. I’m there because they value me and my work. I’m not there to be spoken to like they would speak to one of the employees further down the company. I’m not there to bow and scrape and be a ‘yes man’.

I can be unemployed for 5 months of the year and still earn the same as someone in senior management without having ANY of the responsibilities they do, such as managing staff or managing a department, or being responsible for policy and performance.

I agree, that was what I loved about it.

Sadly, by the end of the month that will be history for me, as the chances of an outside IR35 job doing what I do is close to nil, as all the large end clients that have traditionally needed a service I provided have all gone the same way.......blanket inside if they 'have' to take anyone on....or, even worse, most have already made arrangements to outsource to their Indian/Far East sub-contractors instead.

Isn't IR35 status just protecting the client from tax liability though? If you accept a contract inside IR35, are they really more likely to treat you like an employee and therefore the negatives listed above come back?

It's a genuine question, by the way. I'm in a permanent role at the moment and am suffering quite a lot of the above. If I move back to contracting, I'll definitely have to do so inside IR35 (which I don't mind as long as the rate is right), but I don't want to have too much of that stuff going on otherwise there is less point in moving.

[aeropilot]

kingston12 said:

aeropilot said:

Lord Marylebone said:

When I was an employee for 16 years I hated all the baggage that came with it.

The ‘annual appraisals’, the 1:1’s, the team meetings, incompetent managers, being told what to do, being talked down to or patronised by senior management, having to fill in stupid forms about “Where I see myself in the organisation in 12 months time”, office politics, having to pretend to like the fictitious ‘core values’ of the business, having to adhere to the customs and rules of that business, having to bite my tongue all the time becuase ‘rocking the boat’ or speaking your mind is frowned upon.

I can now go to a client and do nothing but crack on with the actual work and delivering the project. I can speak freely and tell them exactly what I think of the way they do things, good or bad. I can make decisions on things quickly without having to check with 50 different people if they agree with my choice.

I can sit in meetings with senior managers, directors and CEO’s and know that we are on the same level. I’m there because they value me and my work. I’m not there to be spoken to like they would speak to one of the employees further down the company. I’m not there to bow and scrape and be a ‘yes man’.

I can be unemployed for 5 months of the year and still earn the same as someone in senior management without having ANY of the responsibilities they do, such as managing staff or managing a department, or being responsible for policy and performance.

I agree, that was what I loved about it.

Sadly, by the end of the month that will be history for me, as the chances of an outside IR35 job doing what I do is close to nil, as all the large end clients that have traditionally needed a service I provided have all gone the same way.......blanket inside if they 'have' to take anyone on....or, even worse, most have already made arrangements to outsource to their Indian/Far East sub-contractors instead.

Isn't IR35 status just protecting the client from tax liability though? If you accept a contract inside IR35, are they really more likely to treat you like an employee and therefore the negatives listed above come back?

It's a genuine question, by the way. I'm in a permanent role at the moment and am suffering quite a lot of the above.

I think it depends who you PAYE through, direct from them via their own internal payroll setup, in which case likely yes to that question.
Or PAYE with an agent or better through one of the better setup and approved Umbrella companies which are then technically your employer and thus should keep you away from the crap.
Only problem with this (in my industry in current Covid climate) is there is no rate rise uplift happening, and in some case rates have been pushed down, on top of the tax shafting from loosing the employers NI from your rate, ontop of all the other issues.

In my sector, there is no longer any financial benefit to being PAYE inside contract through any means, even if I can find an inside role! At my age, I won't have any choice as I'm too old to be seen as desirable permo staff material.
Another couple of years and I might just have had enough in the pension pot to retire, but thats not an option and I'm left in limbo -land now....not sure what the future holds after next month.

[kingston12]

aeropilot said:

I think it depends who you PAYE through, direct from them via their own internal payroll setup, in which case likely yes to that question.
Or PAYE with an agent or better through one of the better setup and approved Umbrella companies which are then technically your employer and thus should keep you away from the crap.
Only problem with this (in my industry in current Covid climate) is there is no rate rise uplift happening, and in some case rates have been pushed down, on top of the tax shafting from loosing the employers NI from your rate, ontop of all the other issues.

In my sector, there is no longer any financial benefit to being PAYE inside contract through any means, even if I can find an inside role! At my age, I won't have any choice as I'm too old to be seen as desirable permo staff material.
Another couple of years and I might just have had enough in the pension pot to retire, but thats not an option and I'm left in limbo -land now....not sure what the future holds after next month.

Indeed. Some roles that I've seen actually want contractors go PAYE direct to them and then offer to pay them the same salary/package as a permanent person in the same role, rather than a PAYE day rate.

That seems the 'thin end of the wedge' to me - earning the same as an equivalent permanent role without having any of the job security and redundancy rights. Worse still if the other permanent factors come back as well.

[Olivera]

kingston12 said:

Some roles that I've seen actually want contractors go PAYE direct to them and then offer to pay them the same salary/package as a permanent person in the same role, rather than a PAYE day rate.

It's an absolutely laughable approach for any kind of in demand skilled profession, yet Countdown on here has frequently argued this 'FTC' approach is a suitable solution.

[Countdown]

Olivera said:

kingston12 said:

Some roles that I've seen actually want contractors go PAYE direct to them and then offer to pay them the same salary/package as a permanent person in the same role, rather than a PAYE day rate.

It's an absolutely laughable approach for any kind of in demand skilled profession, yet Countdown on here has frequently argued this 'FTC' approach is a suitable solution.

Have I? Apologies the memory banks aren't as good as they used to be....

My view would be that somebody working as an interim or Agency should get an uplift to reflect that the role is temporary and uncertain in nature. The amount of uplift depends on how "in demand" their skills are.

To give you an example I can get finance assistants for £15 per hour (which is less than what we pay our permanent staff) but "Heads of Finance" are currently asking for £700 per day (and insisting that the role should be outside IR35...) which is twice what we normally pay for a permie. My point being the rate should be what the market is quoting, just because they're "in demand" doesn't mean they're outside or inside IR35.

[Clockwork Cupcake]

Olivera said:

Anyone else taken a long term break from contracting and just done as you wish? What did you get up to?

Frequently. Unfortunately, I end up pottering around achieving very little until I think "fk me, I'm running out of money" and then look for another contact.

[Olivera]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

Olivera said:

Anyone else taken a long term break from contracting and just done as you wish? What did you get up to?

Frequently. Unfortunately, I end up pottering around achieving very little until I think "fk me, I'm running out of money" and then look for another contact.

Pottering around doing little sounds appealing. I have an Escort Cosworth to fettle and an old house that needs DIY, and I'll try and get out on my bike now the weather is getting better, so I think I'll be busy.

I've been looking at TVRs of late, perhaps I need more automotive pain in my life In particular I like your Sagaris, and Gazzab also has a lovely Cerb

[Greenmantle]

Countdown said:

To give you an example I can get finance assistants for £15 per hour (which is less than what we pay our permanent staff) but "Heads of Finance" are currently asking for £700 per day (and insisting that the role should be outside IR35...) which is twice what we normally pay for a permie. My point being the rate should be what the market is quoting, just because they're "in demand" doesn't mean they're outside or inside IR35.

So to summarise you are saying that "Its the market that counts".
Heads of Finance can either ask for £700 per day outside IR35
or
£700 + additional tax + employer NI + employee NI inside IR35.

If yes then I agree with it. What I don't agree with is this automatic squeeze on the little guys like us.
Currently my line of business is seeing a perfect storm of reduced talent (Brexit, Covid etc). What I don't want to see are the big players telling the government to issue more green cards since there is a resource problem because there isn't.

[Gazzab]

Countdown said:

Olivera said:

kingston12 said:

Some roles that I've seen actually want contractors go PAYE direct to them and then offer to pay them the same salary/package as a permanent person in the same role, rather than a PAYE day rate.

It's an absolutely laughable approach for any kind of in demand skilled profession, yet Countdown on here has frequently argued this 'FTC' approach is a suitable solution.

Have I? Apologies the memory banks aren't as good as they used to be....

My view would be that somebody working as an interim or Agency should get an uplift to reflect that the role is temporary and uncertain in nature. The amount of uplift depends on how "in demand" their skills are.

To give you an example I can get finance assistants for £15 per hour (which is less than what we pay our permanent staff) but "Heads of Finance" are currently asking for £700 per day (and insisting that the role should be outside IR35...) which is twice what we normally pay for a permie. My point being the rate should be what the market is quoting, just because they're "in demand" doesn't mean they're outside or inside IR35.

£700 a day is a terrible rate for a senior role. If it’s then inside and eNI discounted then it’s akin to £500 a day. If you work 6 months a year only then that’s a rubbish income v’s perm.