Contractors: IR35 & general discussion

[sbk1972]

I'm still contracting :-) Been a contractor for over 27 years, man and boy. Always outside IR35.

Remember when Ir35 came in in 2000. Hated it then. Hated it more around 2019 when the client decided. :-)

Im 51. Would I go contracting now ? Mmm not sure i would.

Aiming to contract as long as I can. 55/58. Then seek out a permy role to retire into.


Contracting has done me well. No regrets. I dont have a title, Im not a manager. Im not a team lead. However I dont have a mortgage, I live well and Im not stressed or burning out :-)

SBK

[Clockwork Cupcake]

Deep Thought said:

Thus i dont avoid any particular agencies.

I avoid agencies who have dicked me around in the past, especially ones who have lied and said they have put my CV in to a client and I subsequently found out through alternative channels that they did not.

[Ranger 6]

Still contracting - started in 2004 and managed to stay outside until last year.

Took the decision to go inside as the opportunities were there, I've since moved to another company and much happier. The rates have been inflated to give the impression of parity, but I don't fall for that and miss managing my own destiny from that perspective.

[Blown2CV]

controversial point.... in most cases it doesn't really matter inside or outside as the difference in rates evens it out.

[Guvernator]

Blown2CV said:

controversial point.... in most cases it doesn't really matter inside or outside as the difference in rates evens it out.

Err it does. not every role has a higher rate to compensate, in fact in my field, at least 50% of rates are still the same as they were before and for those that are offering an increased rate, they are often not increased enough to compensate for the extra tax you have to pay.

[Pit Pony]

sbk1972 said:

I'm still contracting :-) Been a contractor for over 27 years, man and boy. Always outside IR35.

Remember when Ir35 came in in 2000. Hated it then. Hated it more around 2019 when the client decided. :-)

Im 51. Would I go contracting now ? Mmm not sure i would.

Aiming to contract as long as I can. 55/58. Then seek out a permy role to retire into.


Contracting has done me well. No regrets. I dont have a title, Im not a manager. Im not a team lead. However I dont have a mortgage, I live well and Im not stressed or burning out :-)

SBK

I've just resigned, from a permie role that was "going to lead to retirement" working 3 months notice.

12 years contracting, made it harder to be permie.

Area of the country** verses my skills* make choice limited.
I'm not saying my next role won't be permie, but there are a few roles available that are unfortunately inside IR35. Plus I'm not prepared to see spend every night of the week away from home. And I don't fancy travelling 1 hour each way, so what I can see I'm limited to Permie jobs

• 6 Sigma Black Belt and Chartered Manufacturing Engineer

• Merseyside

[Clockwork Cupcake]

Pit Pony said:

Plus I'm not prepared to see spend every night of the week away from home. And I don't fancy travelling 1 hour each way, so what I can see I'm limited to Permie jobs

My current client are really cool. Started out as being on-site 2 days a week, which lasted all of a couple of weeks, but now they say to just come in whenever I want. Which is seldom.

We videoconf every day to keep in touch though - just a 10 min "standup". Works really well for me. They're a good bunch.

edit: Contract before that was 100% remote with the client being in Europe. Contract before that was remote too (started out as on-site but after a year or so they closed the site and I told them I would only continue working with them if it was remote, and they agreed). Basically, by the time Covid-19 came along I'd already been working remotely for a couple of years.

Edited by Clockwork Cupcake on Wednesday 19th April 20:27

[Gazzab]

Blown2CV said:

controversial point.... in most cases it doesn't really matter inside or outside as the difference in rates evens it out.

Not how I see it. The large banks and insurers are generally offering rates nearly 50% lower than I used to charge them and they are inside/blanket. I now avoid the large ftse 100’s and go with much smaller Co’s for a rate that’s nearly twice their rate and is outside.

[theboss]

Blown2CV said:

controversial point.... in most cases it doesn't really matter inside or outside as the difference in rates evens it out.

If the rate's higher I'm trousering that extra, not gifting it to HMRC.

[Blown2CV]

Guvernator said:

Blown2CV said:

controversial point.... in most cases it doesn't really matter inside or outside as the difference in rates evens it out.

Err it does. not every role has a higher rate to compensate, in fact in my field, at least 50% of rates are still the same as they were before and for those that are offering an increased rate, they are often not increased enough to compensate for the extra tax you have to pay.

OK well it does in IT. Generally outside roles drop in about 150 quid a day less than inside roles, and that has settled down to be fairly common in my market. Yes there are a few dhead companies than feel they can do something different to the main, but they are not common enough to pay attention to.

[Blown2CV]

Gazzab said:

Blown2CV said:

controversial point.... in most cases it doesn't really matter inside or outside as the difference in rates evens it out.

Not how I see it. The large banks and insurers are generally offering rates nearly 50% lower than I used to charge them and they are inside/blanket. I now avoid the large ftse 100’s and go with much smaller Co’s for a rate that’s nearly twice their rate and is outside.

OK that's fine but it's not the same as the bulk of the roles I've seen. Maybe you're different as you've expressed on multiple occasions how important and senior you are, lest we forget.

[Jiebo]

sbk1972 said:

I'm still contracting :-) Been a contractor for over 27 years, man and boy. Always outside IR35.

Remember when Ir35 came in in 2000. Hated it then. Hated it more around 2019 when the client decided. :-)

Im 51. Would I go contracting now ? Mmm not sure i would.

Aiming to contract as long as I can. 55/58. Then seek out a permy role to retire into.


Contracting has done me well. No regrets. I dont have a title, Im not a manager. Im not a team lead. However I dont have a mortgage, I live well and Im not stressed or burning out :-)

SBK

In my industry (banking) full compensation perm salaries (ie all perks, typical bonus) aren't much from the contract rates, which are all inside IR35. There is very little point of contracting now, as there is zero reward for taking the risk.

[Blown2CV]

theboss said:

Blown2CV said:

controversial point.... in most cases it doesn't really matter inside or outside as the difference in rates evens it out.

If the rate's higher I'm trousering that extra, not gifting it to HMRC.

well you wouldn't be able to, as I am talking about inside rates being higher to compensate for the enforced deductions. It doesn't get to you before it is deducted, although the umbrella will helpfully detail it all on an extended payslip so the contractor can read it all through gritted teeth.

In any case they are not meant to be equivalent roles with same terms, working arrangements, deliverables and so on... are they... kind of the whole point

[economicpygmy]

In software and electronic engineering the rates are all over the place. if I'm honest, I dont want to do inside gigs due to possibility of setting a precedent. I'm trying a mix of fixed priced jobs and/or insisting everything is nailed down more than I used to with just a SoW, but I'm not sure this will work long term.

I think the aspect that annoys me is engineering managers, project managers and commercial guys are usually quite open to a contract of deliverables; HR departments and middle managers seem the opposite.

Contracting for me is about a small amount of independence, variety of work, separation from aspects of the corporate culture I dont like and freedom to work silly hours then have time off for travel, hobbies...etc. As someone else mentioned, there's very little in it financially from permi wages now if you take into account risk!

This morning another contractor friend of mine has decided to retire early, recently another has decided to mostly not work, all becuase of this legislation. And then we have the gov talking about people out of work and productivity.

[E63eeeeee...]

Paying people twice as much to do the same work is the opposite of productivity.

I'm still contracting - on my second contract after being perm for 20 years until 18 months ago. My first was outside, this one's inside. Day rate was in proportion so take home is roughly the same as it was outside after accounting for travel costs and this one's a much more interesting job, plus I do prefer not feeling weird about getting involved in team stuff or things outside the scope of my immediate job.

I don't get the gritted teeth thing, pretty sure the trick is not to get blinded by the headline figure and just to focus on the bottom line. If that's not enough money, then do something else. Getting hung up about what happens between the two figures is pretty futile.

In terms of rates, my industry seems to be largely trying to get away with paying the standard old outside rates for inside jobs, and as if inflation wasn't happening. That's only based on my very occasional checking of LinkedIn though, I'm not currently showing as looking for work and I've changed my current job title to be less generic which seems to stop most of the spam from people trying to interest me in very junior jobs which turn out to be half my day rate, but they almost always make you ask.

When I was still perm we went through a process of converting people from outside to inside. The people we wanted to keep got offered an appropriate uplift in day rates, but I'm not sure if that approach is widespread. Curious to see what the market is like when I finish up here.

[Blown2CV]

E63eeeeee... said:

I don't get the gritted teeth thing, pretty sure the trick is not to get blinded by the headline figure and just to focus on the bottom line. If that's not enough money, then do something else. Getting hung up about what happens between the two figures is pretty futile.

sounds like the only people who are hung up on it are those refusing to do inside roles. In any case I challenge you to see 3 grand go out the door on employer's NI before they even calculate the gross and go yea fine that's all totally fine... it's not like you can look past it. Enough of a shocker even if the reader wasn't previously accustomed to all the manners of financial creativity possible with outside roles.

[rustyuk]

Switched to perm during Covid and shut down my Ltd. Was offered an outside gig last month but still have 6 months left before I can create a new company.

Looked at going via an Umbrella but unless I stuck 50% of the day rate into a pension the additional tax and extra bank holidays meant I would earn an extra £150 or so net a week. So I decided to stick with the perm role, until November at least. However, a big pension increase when I hit the 3 year mark might tie me into this for longer.

Current thinking is dropping down the ladder and going fully remote and take advantage of the Digital Nomad Visas being offered by Greece and Spain.

One thing is for sure, I still hate dealing with agents.

[G7orge]

rustyuk said:

Switched to perm during Covid and shut down my Ltd.

Current thinking is dropping down the ladder and going fully remote and take advantage of the Digital Nomad Visas being offered by Greece and Spain.

.

- Similar to me - I have been contracting since the 90s so a bit of a shock going permi - was looking into the nomad visa to soften the blow as I am a home worker - however not sure my company would allow my base to be anywhere else bar the UK

[Olivera]

G7orge said:

- Similar to me - I have been contracting since the 90s so a bit of a shock going permi - was looking into the nomad visa to soften the blow as I am a home worker - however not sure my company would allow my base to be anywhere else bar the UK

Retire completely? Anyone contracting on a half-decent rate since the 90s ought to be able to call it a day at any point and have a nice retirement.

[Clockwork Cupcake]

Olivera said:

Retire completely? Anyone contracting on a half-decent rate since the 90s ought to be able to call it a day at any point and have a nice retirement.

Unless a lot of the money is gone, maybe due to a really awful divorce where they pretty much lost everything except the shirt off their back and basically had to start over.

You don't know everyone's circumstances.