SWR strikers - does the Union pay their wages on strike?

[Shakermaker]

valiant said:

Shakermaker said:

Yes, can they not learn lessons from their European counterparts and still run the normal service but just leave the gates open and not take money for tickets?

Wouldn’t work over here.

Firstly, you have the legal right to take strike action (obvs with proper ballots, etc) and withdraw your labour. You do not have the right to pick and choose what bits of work you have to do. If your manager tells you to man the gateline and check/sell tickets and you refuse then you’re opening yourself up to a disciplinary.

Secondly, most people affected are generally season ticket holders - they’ve already paid.

Thirdly, once your past the ticket barriers you are in a ‘compulsory ticket area’ and YOU are liable for a penalty fare whether the gates are open or not. It is YOUR responsibility to ensure YOU have the right ticket for your journey and who’s to say the gates are not manned at your destination station? Checking tickets is not a safety critical role and can be done by suitably trained office staff and managers dragged out for the day. No ticket? Possible fine.

Fourthly, this dispute is about the loss of guards and doesn’t affect station staff. They’ll be in as normal I suspect (although possibly hiding from the wrath of disgruntled commuters ).

I understand that, and thank you for explaining the reasons. But is it SWR staff who are also responsible for handing out the penalties? Just my "are they all in it together" type attitude - I don't use SWR and rarely use the train but where I do use them, when I see a guard they do the ticket checking and operating the doors (which I believe is the root of many of these industrial disputes) but they wear the same uniform as the station staff.

[valiant]

Times have changed my friend.

In days of yore it would indeed be ‘one out, all out’ but those days are gone. Nowadays the union tends to ballot just the grades affected so in this case, station staff (inc revenue bods, ticket clerks, etc) wouldn’t be balloted and would be expected to turn up for work as normal. Station staff have no dog in this fight and probably don’t fully understand the implications (just as drivers have no appreciation of what goes on in stations) and with the current voting laws would probably vote ‘no’ if they were included on the ballot and potentially make the entire vote null and void so from a union point of view it may be best not to include them.

I’m not totally au fait with the SWR dispute but as this is a guards/driver dispute, I doubt it would involve station staff as they have no bearing on the proposed changes. Had it been a pay dispute affecting all grades then I’d expect all grades to be balloted.

[SmoothCriminal]

FrenchCarFan said:

SmoothCriminal said:

The trains are not capable and I don't think the routes have been cleared for DOO so no they can't just run the trains every one must have a guard.

This. It's terms and conditions.

Once this is sorted the drivers will be opening and closing the doors. Even if they 'win' this round the 'war' is lost. Most would be better either looking for alternative employment or a driver training course.

Indeed, as soon as the first doo train ran in passenger service the guards days were numbered also the fact some hide in the cabs and want to do zero passenger interaction it's no surprise.

Having a second safety trained member of staff onboard is a defo plus but no way does that include doing the doors there is no need especially on suburban routes and now three out of the four biggest tocs for passenger numbers are doo how do the rmt justify it for SWR, it's a lot more efficient getting the driver to do the doors.

The RMT are laughable they should have secured employment for their members rather than sell them down the river trying to resist the inevitable

[echazfraz]

krisdelta said:

My understanding is that the DfT are compensating SWR to the tune of £85m

wat

DfT compensating SWR for what, for SWR having to pay loads fewer people during December?!

Not having a pop at you, just this seems unbelievable.

[kingston12]

echazfraz said:

wat

DfT compensating SWR for what, for SWR having to pay loads fewer people during December?!

Not having a pop at you, just this seems unbelievable.

The government compensation to SWR is for ‘lost passenger revenue’, presumably due to the fact that less people will buy one-off daily tickets because of the strike action.

The strike is a huge win/win situation for SWR:

1. Lower wage bill.
2. Lower lease costs as trains used less.
3. Ability to blame RMT for poor service, when in reality it is just as bad in non-strike periods.
4. Season ticket holders still paying full price, with only recourse being Delay Repay against the strike timetable!

The system is broken, and this is why there is always competition when franchises become available.

[Robertj21a]

kingston12 said:

The government compensation to SWR is for ‘lost passenger revenue’, presumably due to the fact that less people will buy one-off daily tickets because of the strike action.

The strike is a huge win/win situation for SWR:

1. Lower wage bill.
2. Lower lease costs as trains used less.
3. Ability to blame RMT for poor service, when in reality it is just as bad in non-strike periods.
4. Season ticket holders still paying full price, with only recourse being Delay Repay against the strike timetable!

The system is broken, and this is why there is always competition when franchises become available.

3. It's not as bad in non strike periods. Where do your facts come from ?

4. I thought there was little competition nowadays for a franchise ?

[FrenchCarFan]

SmoothCriminal said:

FrenchCarFan said:

SmoothCriminal said:

The trains are not capable and I don't think the routes have been cleared for DOO so no they can't just run the trains every one must have a guard.

This. It's terms and conditions.

Once this is sorted the drivers will be opening and closing the doors. Even if they 'win' this round the 'war' is lost. Most would be better either looking for alternative employment or a driver training course.

Indeed, as soon as the first doo train ran in passenger service the guards days were numbered also the fact some hide in the cabs and want to do zero passenger interaction it's no surprise.

Having a second safety trained member of staff onboard is a defo plus but no way does that include doing the doors there is no need especially on suburban routes and now three out of the four biggest tocs for passenger numbers are doo how do the rmt justify it for SWR, it's a lot more efficient getting the driver to do the doors.

The RMT are laughable they should have secured employment for their members rather than sell them down the river trying to resist the inevitable

Agree on this. It seems they certainly have an offer on the table in regards to a safety trained staff staying on the train.

Less to go wrong for them as the safety risk goes to the driver in the case of trap and drag. I wonder how many older guards versus younger guards believe in the strike action. The guard who has maybe 5 or so years left till retirement versus the mid twenties to mid thirties

[kingston12]

Robertj21a said:

3. It's not as bad in non strike periods. Where do your facts come from ?

4. I thought there was little competition nowadays for a franchise ?

On my personal journey, it has been worse every month during 2019 than in December. I travel into London 4-5 days a week and have claimed Delay Repay (for a journey delayed by more than 15 minutes) far less times during the strike than usual. Granted, I have only been able to claim against the reduced timetable, but I have been late for work less often and overcrowding and random last-minute cancellations have been far less frequent. This is only anecdotal, and I'm sure it was much worse for others.

Either way, the non-strike service have been pitiful since SWR took over. Even if the strike does make it worse for some travellers, it makes it easier for SWR to have a scapegoat for a month.

In terms of competition for the franchise, my understanding was that Stagecoach wanted to continue operating as SWT, but were beaten by First Group. It's fair to say there may not be as much competition going forward. That's bad news because it will make it more difficult to replace SWR.

[Southerner]

SmoothCriminal said:

FrenchCarFan said:

SmoothCriminal said:

The trains are not capable and I don't think the routes have been cleared for DOO so no they can't just run the trains every one must have a guard.

This. It's terms and conditions.

Once this is sorted the drivers will be opening and closing the doors. Even if they 'win' this round the 'war' is lost. Most would be better either looking for alternative employment or a driver training course.

Indeed, as soon as the first doo train ran in passenger service the guards days were numbered also the fact some hide in the cabs and want to do zero passenger interaction it's no surprise.

Having a second safety trained member of staff onboard is a defo plus but no way does that include doing the doors there is no need especially on suburban routes and now three out of the four biggest tocs for passenger numbers are doo how do the rmt justify it for SWR, it's a lot more efficient getting the driver to do the doors.

The RMT are laughable they should have secured employment for their members rather than sell them down the river trying to resist the inevitable

A union cannot 'secure' employment for its members beyond the end of a franchise. It is generally the preferred strategy to gain that security by fighting to ensure that the Guard has a clear, essential role on board the train. It's no surprise of course that the current rash of rail strikes is driven by a government agenda to push through Driver-Only trains (although they like to stand back and insist it has nothing to do with them), which in turn is in response to a report from some years back aiming to cut subsidy costs by slashing staff. Within several days of the Tory circus landing in town, Grant Shapps was making statements about restricting rail workers' rights to take industrial action and 'assisting' operators move to Driver-Only, so we can assume the inevitable Tory assault on the working class scum will start with the railway!

The sad thing is that all people want to do is go to work and do their jobs, but I guess if you've got the cheek to be on a half decent salary and conditions that's too much to ask these days.

Edited by Southerner on Monday 30th December 18:45

Edited by Southerner on Monday 30th December 18:46

[Robertj21a]

Southerner said:

A union cannot 'secure' employment for its members beyond the end of a franchise. It is generally the preferred strategy to gain that security by fighting to ensure that the Guard has a clear, essential role on board the train. It's no surprise of course that the current rash of rail strikes is driven by a government agenda to push through Driver-Only trains (although they like to stand back and insist it has nothing to do with them), which in turn is in response to a report from some years back aiming to cut subsidy costs by slashing staff. Within several days of the Tory circus landing in town, Grant Shapps was making statements about restricting rail workers' rights to take industrial action and 'assisting' operators move to Driver-Only, so we can assume the inevitable Tory assault on the working class scum will start with the railway!

The sad thing is that all people want to do is go to work and do their jobs, but I guess if you've got the cheek to be on a half decent salary and conditions that's too much to ask these days.

Edited by Southerner on Monday 30th December 18:45

Edited by Southerner on Monday 30th December 18:46

Probably better to drop the political bitterness if you want any sensible responses.

[Southerner]

Robertj21a said:

Probably better to drop the political bitterness if you want any sensible responses.

I don't think it's bitter, it's merely an observation. The SWR boys & girls simply want their jobs left alone, that's all. The Tories despise unions, that's hardly a secret, and they've made it quite clear from the very early days of this government that they intend to attack them on the railways. If you support the Tories' beliefs and objectives, then fair enough. We are each entitled to have our chosen views of course.

[Robertj21a]

Southerner said:

Robertj21a said:

Probably better to drop the political bitterness if you want any sensible responses.

I don't think it's bitter, it's merely an observation. The SWR boys & girls simply want their jobs left alone, that's all. The Tories despise unions, that's hardly a secret, and they've made it quite clear from the very early days of this government that they intend to attack them on the railways. If you support the Tories' beliefs and objectives, then fair enough. We are each entitled to have our chosen views of course.

Understood, and accepted. I do however wonder at how the RMT can honestly believe that calling a massive strike while a General Election is on was ever going to help their cause. Ironic that the RMT probably helped many Tory MPs !

The strikes on SWR may well continue for some time - but the passengers will remember them, and the union behind them, for a lot longer.

[anonymous-user]

I'm shocked that guards get paid around £45k. No wonder the train company is trying get rid of them, technology will get them eventually.

If this dispute is really about safety and not job security, surely having passengers onside would help their case but striking for weeks on end just forces the technology to get adopted sooner as passengers want trains that run.

This really is Turkey's voting for Xmas.

[djc206]

gottans said:

I'm shocked that guards get paid around £45k. No wonder the train company is trying get rid of them, technology will get them eventually.

If this dispute is really about safety and not job security, surely having passengers onside would help their case but striking for weeks on end just forces the technology to get adopted sooner as passengers want trains that run.

This really is Turkey's voting for Xmas.

Jesus that’s the definition of overpaid if true.

[kingston12]

Southerner said:

The SWR boys & girls simply want their jobs left alone, that's all.

The problem is that is going to be more difficult after years of good union negotiation.

Guards are undoubtedly on very good money and conditions now for the job that they do, and that creates the dual problem of making it more attractive to the TOCs to try to get rid of them, whilst reducing the level of support from the public when they find out how much they earn.

It does show how effective the RMT have remained whilst other unions seem to have struggled. Train guards earn more than entry-level firemen, police, nurses etc. I would have thought that wouldn’t have been the case 25 years ago.

Edited by kingston12 on Tuesday 31st December 17:24

[Rick101]

I find it a real shame so many are keen to kick guards simply because they feel the role doesn't deserve the pay it does, without actually knowing what the responsibilities of a guard are. I can tell you, it's not just to open and close the doors!

It can be a very tough and demanding job.There are a huge number of guard vacancies currently. There is reason for that and it's not the pay.

[Taita]

Rick101 said:

I find it a real shame so many are keen to kick guards simply because they feel the role doesn't deserve the pay it does, without actually knowing what the responsibilities of a guard are. I can tell you, it's not just to open and close the doors!

It can be a very tough and demanding job.There are a huge number of guard vacancies currently. There is reason for that and it's not the pay.

Can you expand, to the layman it looks like excessive money for pretty unskilled work. 100% open to being educated though

[borcy]

Rick101 said:

I find it a real shame so many are keen to kick guards simply because they feel the role doesn't deserve the pay it does, without actually knowing what the responsibilities of a guard are. I can tell you, it's not just to open and close the doors!

It can be a very tough and demanding job.There are a huge number of guard vacancies currently. There is reason for that and it's not the pay.

Which ones are looking to take on? I know a couple of people interested in getting into the rail industry in the east of england.

[Robertj21a]

Before anyone gets carried away, can somebody in the know post up a typical guard's pay range (without the overtime) ?

I was told that that it is in the £40-50k range. Am I way out ?

[Southerner]

gottans said:

I'm shocked that guards get paid around £45k. No wonder the train company is trying get rid of them, technology will get them eventually.

If this dispute is really about safety and not job security, surely having passengers onside would help their case but striking for weeks on end just forces the technology to get adopted sooner as passengers want trains that run.

This really is Turkey's voting for Xmas.

You will never have passengers onside if you're railway staff on strike. The railway isn't generally held in paricularly high regard on a good day, let alone when there's mass disruption for whatever reason. Most passengers just want to get there; plenty would happily travel in coal wagons if that was all that was available! The striking staff have to accept that they won't be very popular, that comes with the territory.

They most certainly aren't overpaid, of that you can be assured! It isn't a 9-5 in a nice cumfy office, and the last bloke who majorly cocked it up got jail time. It's simply become the case that a strong union defending good pay and conditions is now largely an alien concept to most of the working population, which is a sad thing really.