Women uncomfortable with transgender employee in toilet
Discussion
b
hstewie said:
hstewie said: The year is important because the accepted morals of our society change over time.
Women get the vote now but try having that conversation in 1900 and it would have been viewed very differently.
Times change.
Yes - that makes my point for me. I'm happy to be corrected but I suspect that UK morals have not changed widely on the view that males should not use women's toilets. Women get the vote now but try having that conversation in 1900 and it would have been viewed very differently.
Times change.
The law has quite rightly given rights to transgender people and I think most wouldn't want to see a transgender person disadvantaged as long as those rights don't impinge on the rights of others.
I think the argument is that the transgender person's rights have superseded the rights of the non transgender person if that permits a male to use the women't toilets.
Furthermore, there are some on here who would support the non transgender person giving themselves a slap for complaining that they're rights are being trampled on.
Leylandeye said:
Yes - that makes my point for me. I'm happy to be corrected but I suspect that UK morals have not changed widely on the view that males should not use women's toilets.
The law has quite rightly given rights to transgender people and I think most wouldn't want to see a transgender person disadvantaged as long as those rights don't impinge on the rights of others.
I think the argument is that the transgender person's rights have superseded the rights of the non transgender person if that permits a male to use the women't toilets.
Furthermore, there are some on here who would support the non transgender person giving themselves a slap for complaining that they're rights are being trampled on.
Depends if you want to live in a world that's dictated by "rights" over simply what's kind and decent.The law has quite rightly given rights to transgender people and I think most wouldn't want to see a transgender person disadvantaged as long as those rights don't impinge on the rights of others.
I think the argument is that the transgender person's rights have superseded the rights of the non transgender person if that permits a male to use the women't toilets.
Furthermore, there are some on here who would support the non transgender person giving themselves a slap for complaining that they're rights are being trampled on.
I get it that kind and decent is a bit idealistic and doesn't and can't always apply to everything.
But as I think I said before when you're basically sitting there thinking "This person's probably going through a really hard time already but I'm going to make their life a little bit worse by complaining because they're in my toilet" then I'm sorry but I think that's spiteful.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: Depends if you want to live in a world that's dictated by "rights" over simply what's kind and decent.
I get it that kind and decent is a bit idealistic and doesn't and can't always apply to everything.
But as I think I said before when you're basically sitting there thinking "This person's probably going through a really hard time already but I'm going to make their life a little bit worse by complaining because they're in my toilet" then I'm sorry but I think that's spiteful.
Yes, all those points are valid but are relevant to both sides. I get it that kind and decent is a bit idealistic and doesn't and can't always apply to everything.
But as I think I said before when you're basically sitting there thinking "This person's probably going through a really hard time already but I'm going to make their life a little bit worse by complaining because they're in my toilet" then I'm sorry but I think that's spiteful.
It's possible to be kind and decent to someone but still be unhappy if they're behaviour causes you harm. The act of behaving in a manner which would reasonably cause distress is in itself causing harm.
It is human nature to become protective when your position is being undermined so I'm not sure if spiteful is too strong.
I don't know if all transgender people are going through any harder time than others but at least the transgender person has their position protected by policy and law.
What protects the 30+ women who feel the same way as most other women in our society would feel?
Leylandeye said:
Yes - that makes my point for me. I'm happy to be corrected but I suspect that UK morals have not changed widely on the view that males should not use women's toilets.
This neatly summarises the problem. The transgender person isn’t seen as a woman by the other women, from what you’ve written. They’re viewing her as a man in a dress.When does their view on this change? When the person “comes out” as transsexual? Then they start their transition with hormone therapy? When they have surgery and have completed their transition? Or never?
Paired with that, when is it reasonable that the trans person starts to use the toilets of their gender?
Both sides will have different answers to these questions, and there will doubtless be different answers from people within each side, with at least one person taking the extreme position for each (should be able to use the ladies loo the moment they come out and start to live as a woman, vs. should never be allowed into the ladies loo, even years after the final operation).
There will always be conflict, particularly at the extreme ends. Reasonable people might think to meet somewhere in the middle...
DanL said:
The transgender person isn’t seen as a woman by the other women, from what you’ve written. They’re viewing her as a man in a dress.
.......... Reasonable people might think to meet somewhere in the middle...
It's difficult for me to be sure as this is being relayed third hand to me but the impression I get is that they see them as a transgender person. Just because they don't want a transgender person in the opposite sex toilet of the sex they were identified at birth doesn't make them complete transists........... Reasonable people might think to meet somewhere in the middle...
Leylandeye said:
It's difficult for me to be sure as this is being relayed third hand to me but the impression I get is that they see them as a transgender person. Just because they don't want a transgender person in the opposite sex toilet of the sex they were identified at birth doesn't make them complete transists.
Yes it does. The birth certificate is irrelevant. They're trans now. The law says they are female. They can use the female toilets. Piersman2 said:
Doesn't anyone make a ladies toilet door sign with a little deployable cock for when a trans person is using the loos? That would solve your problem. 
I wouldn't bother filling in the application to get onto Dragon's Den with that one but interesting out of the box thinking.Leylandeye said:
Yes, all those points are valid but are relevant to both sides.
It's possible to be kind and decent to someone but still be unhappy if they're behaviour causes you harm. The act of behaving in a manner which would reasonably cause distress is in itself causing harm.
It is human nature to become protective when your position is being undermined so I'm not sure if spiteful is too strong.
I don't know if all transgender people are going through any harder time than others but at least the transgender person has their position protected by policy and law.
What protects the 30+ women who feel the same way as most other women in our society would feel?
The law protects them as it does the new employee.It's possible to be kind and decent to someone but still be unhappy if they're behaviour causes you harm. The act of behaving in a manner which would reasonably cause distress is in itself causing harm.
It is human nature to become protective when your position is being undermined so I'm not sure if spiteful is too strong.
I don't know if all transgender people are going through any harder time than others but at least the transgender person has their position protected by policy and law.
What protects the 30+ women who feel the same way as most other women in our society would feel?
If you don't like that look to change the law.
Don't make someone feel s
t just because they're different and you can.megaphone said:
A place I visit had mixed toilets with cubicles, they have recently labelled the cubicles M & F as the ladies moaned about piss all over the seats etc.
Some ladies apparently "hover" and dont even sit down properly and may even be culprits themselves... I think most guys would lift the seat. If clothing wasn't so gendered, I wonder if it would make a change for some? I appreciate psychology and feelings things weren't right from a young age (hate to use cliche), but there are some blokes who would just wear a skirt instead of trousers as part of a "genderfluid" option, or just a sartorial choice. 
The guys in the background don't seem fazed...
I guess as long as the work gets done, there's no big deal if they are professional in their job. The younger generations are more "woke" and don't seem to be up in arms, but I can also understand why the ladies may feel uncumfortable about it. Every hot summer there's a builder / schoolboy / bus driver in skirt story that makes the news, as guys wardrobe choices are limited and may not be able to wear shorts. It is just clothes, each to their own. No one is really that bothered anymore
an interesting (and IMO), well balanced view on the trans vs female debate (and for a lot of women it seems it is feeling like a vs rather than co-habit)
https://unherd.com/2020/02/the-labour-party-has-ch...
https://unherd.com/2020/02/the-labour-party-has-ch...
JuniorD said:
If this person is in a cubic doing their business, what odds? It would be different if he was standing taking a slash in a urinal or a sink.
As an innocent young thing I went into a public loo in Belgium in 1971. I thought it a bit strange that there were no double doors or zig-zag entrance, just an open doorway from the street. Standing at the urinal, I was a little surprised to hear a lady's footsteps behind me; the lady entered a cubicle and we both carried on our business as normal. No problems.Mind you , in the 90s, my then 10 year-old son was having a pee at the end urinal in a French camp site, when a lady walked in and started washing her dishes in the adjacent sink. It took him years to recover. 😊
Leylandeye said:
It's possible to be kind and decent to someone but still be unhappy if they're behaviour causes you harm. The act of behaving in a manner which would reasonably cause distress is in itself causing harm.
It's possible to put up with a bit of unhappiness in order to be kind to someone else who needs one to be. What "harm" is being caused to these women? NONE!
I'll bet they can't even fully explain their discomfort and why they feel it.
I'm surprised, really, because there was a storyline on Coronation Street about it at least a decade ago, so it's not like they've never come across the situation.
Basic ignorant prejudice is what they're feeling, I reckon.
As someone has already said, unless they all have a habit of leaving the cubicle doors open or slashing in the sink with one leg propped on the hand dryer, I'm not sure they'll SEE anything different.
Anyone who seriously considers leaving a job because of such a ridiculous triviality is not someone I'd want to work alongside, let alone employ.
Welcome to the here and now, grandmas!
Surprised at some of the responses here.
If you are born as a man use the male toilets and if you are born as a woman use the female toilets, quite simple. Like some have said woman often use male toilets at events etc but most males are not bothered by it, some even like it, however where else would a male be able to use the female toilets without repercussions?
If the company has employed a trans employee then the company should, IMO, also have unisex toilets available.
If you are male and want to dress like a woman I have no issues with that at all, however you are still male, fact. No amount of saying I want to be a woman will change this.
If you are born as a man use the male toilets and if you are born as a woman use the female toilets, quite simple. Like some have said woman often use male toilets at events etc but most males are not bothered by it, some even like it, however where else would a male be able to use the female toilets without repercussions?
If the company has employed a trans employee then the company should, IMO, also have unisex toilets available.
If you are male and want to dress like a woman I have no issues with that at all, however you are still male, fact. No amount of saying I want to be a woman will change this.
D1ckie said:
where else would a male be able to use the female toilets without repercussions?
That's a problem that shouldn't exist. If this works towards solving it. What's the problem?How do people like yourself feel about homosexual people in toilets? Is that a problem too? Or is it not about sex? In which case why the issue with peoples parts? They'd just be people. Unless you have a problem with all people of course...
Pothole said:
D1ckie said:
If you are male and want to dress like a woman I have no issues with that at all.
Hugely magnanimous of you. You may want to investigate what transGENDER means, though, as you appear to be clueless on the subject.stinkyspanner said:
Or maybe, and obviously I can't speak for D1ckie here, he doesn't want to 'investigate' any of this trans stuff because to most people it's irrelevant and boring. Everyone has got there own stuff to deal with, why the woke and trans lot think their issues trump anyone elses is anyone's guess.
They don't have an issue. The people who don't want a trans person to be allowed into the toilets have an issue. Gassing Station | Jobs & Employment Matters | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff