Discussion
smack said:
The Mad Monk said:
A friend has just retired from BA, he tells me that they do get at least one free flight a year to anywhere that BA flies.
It is not a free flight, you still have to pay all the taxes. The 'Annual Concession' is only eligible after a period of service (5 years?) , although company has given extra Annuals as a company bonus to everyone regardless of period of employment.On a side note of the new hired cabin crew, aka Mixed Fleet, 30% of staff leave every year, due to pay and condition, and attracting young staff treat it as a way to see the world and party for a few years rather than a career. They get a base wage, starting at around £15k a year, flight pay (was a bit over £3 an hour), commission for in-flight retail sales, and potentially a bonus, maybe. Unless they still live at home, with a car bought them, that is not much money to live off, without a supporting partner, it is not uncommon for young crew to pack cereal in their case to eat in their hotel room when down route, if they have rent/bills/car lease to cover, and you are in Dubai, Singapore or US Cities where food and drink can be expensive. There is only so many new places they visit, and hours by the pool before boredom of a low paying job sets in.
In most industries, losing 30% staff a year would ring alarm bells.
A million years ago, various friends who worked for BA in office jobs, switched to cabin crew. They thought they had died and gone to Heaven.
Have BA have a number of downward revisions of pay and conditions for flight crew over the decades?
smack said:
It is not a free flight, you still have to pay all the taxes. The 'Annual Concession' is only eligible after a period of service (5 years?) , although company has given extra Annuals as a company bonus to everyone regardless of period of employment.
On a side note of the new hired cabin crew, aka Mixed Fleet, 30% of staff leave every year, due to pay and condition, and attracting young staff treat it as a way to see the world and party for a few years rather than a career. They get a base wage, starting at around £15k a year, flight pay (was a bit over £3 an hour), commission for in-flight retail sales, and potentially a bonus, maybe. Unless they still live at home, with a car bought them, that is not much money to live off, without a supporting partner, it is not uncommon for young crew to pack cereal in their case to eat in their hotel room when down route, if they have rent/bills/car lease to cover, and you are in Dubai, Singapore or US Cities where food and drink can be expensive. There is only so many new places they visit, and hours by the pool before boredom of a low paying job sets in.
In most industries, losing 30% staff a year would ring alarm bells.
It would.On a side note of the new hired cabin crew, aka Mixed Fleet, 30% of staff leave every year, due to pay and condition, and attracting young staff treat it as a way to see the world and party for a few years rather than a career. They get a base wage, starting at around £15k a year, flight pay (was a bit over £3 an hour), commission for in-flight retail sales, and potentially a bonus, maybe. Unless they still live at home, with a car bought them, that is not much money to live off, without a supporting partner, it is not uncommon for young crew to pack cereal in their case to eat in their hotel room when down route, if they have rent/bills/car lease to cover, and you are in Dubai, Singapore or US Cities where food and drink can be expensive. There is only so many new places they visit, and hours by the pool before boredom of a low paying job sets in.
In most industries, losing 30% staff a year would ring alarm bells.
I guess from the beancounters point of view - does the recruitment/training costs more or less than increasing salaries/bonuses/perks. It's always a balancing act. A quick Google suggests that the training period for Cabin Crew is 4-6 weeks, so BA are effectively getting 3 years service for that 6 week investment.
wisbech said:
Yep, a good friend of mine in aviation engineering applied for a job at BA as he was made redundant by another airline After they told him the salary range he didn’t bother with a second interview. Ended up at Airbus in Singapore
Unless you have family reasons to be near Heathrow the combination of high property prices and a low pound make working for BA a mugs game for qualifyed Engineers (no disrespect meant Nessiemac)
No offence taken Wisbech.Unless you have family reasons to be near Heathrow the combination of high property prices and a low pound make working for BA a mugs game for qualifyed Engineers (no disrespect meant Nessiemac)
Edited by wisbech on Monday 8th June 08:06
Edited by wisbech on Monday 8th June 08:06
As mentioned I actually enjoy my job and the shift I work suits my personal and family life perfectly.
Great section and a brilliant bunch of guys that I have worked with for a long time.
Less than an hour away from LHR is a great commute and the pay, for me, enables me to enjoy a pretty good lifestyle.
Fully aware that it "could" be better elsewhere but being a old git that doesn't enjoy change then very happy to (hopefully) continue working there for a while longer!
Thankyou4calling said:
Many people still call Cabin Crew Stewardesses or trolley dollies.
It’s really archaic as serving food is at the absolute bottom of their job description, of course most people could easily do that.
Most couldn’t be cabin crew.
It’s a very demanding job, it’s tough mentally and physically. Looking at a BA staff member working 10 days a month and staying at a hotel in Dubai eating crisps while saving up there overnight allowance is a bit misleading.
Most are on moderate money and work very very hard.
Yes, they do get to travel and initially that’s exciting but after 2 years you go to Cape Town and don’t even open the curtains in your room as you are exhausted.
Partner is a CSD with Qatar Airways. They are the highest payers but they rarely take experienced people as they won’t toe the line.
As said, my sister is Long Haul out of Heathrow. She often does back to back to LA or NY, Mexico or South Africa. She often lands at 6-7am after a night flight and drives back to Staffs where she then goes straight to bed around lunchtime. She has to force herself to get up around 4-5pm so that she can sleep at 11pm, trying to get back into a normal sleeping pattern. She looks exhausted when she does this and after I went to Thailand in January for my 50th I have no idea how she does this for a living.It’s really archaic as serving food is at the absolute bottom of their job description, of course most people could easily do that.
Most couldn’t be cabin crew.
It’s a very demanding job, it’s tough mentally and physically. Looking at a BA staff member working 10 days a month and staying at a hotel in Dubai eating crisps while saving up there overnight allowance is a bit misleading.
Most are on moderate money and work very very hard.
Yes, they do get to travel and initially that’s exciting but after 2 years you go to Cape Town and don’t even open the curtains in your room as you are exhausted.
Partner is a CSD with Qatar Airways. They are the highest payers but they rarely take experienced people as they won’t toe the line.
Yes, she chose to go Long haul, she made her life choices before having her daughter. But most of us all find ourselves in the rut we make for ourselves and reluctant to change. She may have thought she had a job for all her working life with BA.
I told her that this might be a good thing for her - she's 47 now and it's taking it's toll. She said she has no qualms about getting a 40hr job in Sainsbury's etc. During the lockdown, she has enjoyed being a FT mom again to her 11yo daughter. During the pandemic her hospital-working husband has endured a horrific time and is encouraging her to give up the job to ease his childcare responsilibities.
Someone posted doubting her pay after 22 years. She told me this year she was on £25k but on a PT contract, with no ambition for promotion to Senior grades. I've no idea how this works, perhaps other Crew on here might enlighten us?
wisbech said:
LHRFlightman said:
nessiemac said:
Cardo said:
People are so desperate to work for BA that up until the point the pandemic hit the company had been running a rolling recruitment campaign for engineering staff at Heathrow for the previous 3 years.By their own accounts they were short of 100 licensed aircraft engineers and despite continued campaigns were unable to fill those positions.That shows just how great the pay,perks and pension are at BA......
Indeed.So is BA not being able to fill engineering vacancies really a reflection on BA or merely on the industry as a whole?
JxJ Jr. said:
wisbech said:
LHRFlightman said:
nessiemac said:
Cardo said:
People are so desperate to work for BA that up until the point the pandemic hit the company had been running a rolling recruitment campaign for engineering staff at Heathrow for the previous 3 years.By their own accounts they were short of 100 licensed aircraft engineers and despite continued campaigns were unable to fill those positions.That shows just how great the pay,perks and pension are at BA......
Indeed.So is BA not being able to fill engineering vacancies really a reflection on BA or merely on the industry as a whole?
The industry isn’t the best at the moment and big companies don’t have much problem filling vacancies due to other companies going bust or getting rid of staff like tata steel etc, so there is always a little pool of people. Anyone in a decent paying job isn’t leaving though, so all the dregs come through.
I mentioned similar on the 'airlines thread'
A friends wife is a CSD. They have had a bloody good tickle for the years.
Commuting from Yorkshire became more of an arse when the Teesside flights to Heathrow and Gatwick died, but the family have flown in First all over the world for a tickle, and alike. Family holidays on BA essentially.
She's had more sick notes than Darren Andrerton (generally from pissed accidents)
The unions should have bent a little when BA were looking to change contracts a while back. Holding a hardline meant that when BA had a chance to push it through they have.
I have had to snooze the couple on Facebook. They are spamming the s
t out of it, with petitions, media snippets and calling Willie Walsh this that and everything. As if whinging on FB will change a jot, and all it means that your options to be retained become slimmer. And the next prospective employer will also find it laid out bare,
We've all had rough with smooth, rug pulled from under, redundancy over the years. BA is a business. it is unfortunate, but I think the Unions boxed themselves in to a corner.
"Who moved the Cheese"
A friends wife is a CSD. They have had a bloody good tickle for the years.
Commuting from Yorkshire became more of an arse when the Teesside flights to Heathrow and Gatwick died, but the family have flown in First all over the world for a tickle, and alike. Family holidays on BA essentially.
She's had more sick notes than Darren Andrerton (generally from pissed accidents)
The unions should have bent a little when BA were looking to change contracts a while back. Holding a hardline meant that when BA had a chance to push it through they have.
I have had to snooze the couple on Facebook. They are spamming the s
t out of it, with petitions, media snippets and calling Willie Walsh this that and everything. As if whinging on FB will change a jot, and all it means that your options to be retained become slimmer. And the next prospective employer will also find it laid out bare,We've all had rough with smooth, rug pulled from under, redundancy over the years. BA is a business. it is unfortunate, but I think the Unions boxed themselves in to a corner.
"Who moved the Cheese"
PushedDover said:
<snip>
The unions should have bent a little when BA were looking to change contracts a while back. Holding a hardline meant that when BA had a chance to push it through they have.
That's not how it generally works in UK companies (IMHO). The cost-cutting culture means that Management are always but always looking at cutting costs and reducing headcount. The Unions bending wouldn't have made any difference. We could learn a lot from the Germans in terms of employee relations.The unions should have bent a little when BA were looking to change contracts a while back. Holding a hardline meant that when BA had a chance to push it through they have.
nonsequitur said:
As a former BA cabin crew member, I can confirm that long haul crew lived all over the UK and Europe.
One of my neighbours is BA long haul, we live 100 miles from Heathrow. It's the longest commute I know of anyone who doesn't work 'in the city' earning 6 figures. She's been doing it for about 18 years.Just from chats etc it seems that the perks were rather impressive once upon a time (she'd go on a family holiday in business every year for a start) and it was one hell of a job to have, but that seems to have died off significantly in recent years.
Edited by ukaskew on Monday 8th June 15:44
Fastchas said:
Someone posted doubting her pay after 22 years. She told me this year she was on £25k but on a PT contract, with no ambition for promotion to Senior grades. I've no idea how this works, perhaps other Crew on here might enlighten us?
Your initial post/rant made no mention of the fact your sister works part-time in fact you made an issue of her “only” earning £25k and “having” to switch to the long commute It would be interesting to know how many hours she actually does and what the FTE actually is
As someone mentioned above if Long haul normally work 10 days a month full time ...
£25k for maybe (?) five or so days work a month sounds pretty excellent to tbf
I can see why she does it
Gooose said:
I’m a mechanical engineers and the pay is being slashed everywhere, my conditions have just changed as well, we have to work shifts now and forced to multiskill whether we like it or not, no extra pay and even reduced our call out wages to say thanks.
The industry isn’t the best at the moment and big companies don’t have much problem filling vacancies due to other companies going bust or getting rid of staff like tata steel etc, so there is always a little pool of people. Anyone in a decent paying job isn’t leaving though, so all the dregs come through.
Driving down the wages of aircraft maintenance engineers? Cant see that ending well.The industry isn’t the best at the moment and big companies don’t have much problem filling vacancies due to other companies going bust or getting rid of staff like tata steel etc, so there is always a little pool of people. Anyone in a decent paying job isn’t leaving though, so all the dregs come through.
Experienced forced to work more/paid less will end up leaving. They’ll end up with a much higher percentage of less experience/skilled engineers, but hey, it’s great, they accept lower wages.
Who thinks reduced experience and quality of work is a good idea in aviation?
Because, as always, you get what you pay for......a concept management choose to ignore it seems. The cost/quality mix is tipping rapidly away from quality and solely towards cost alone. Awesome!
Earthdweller said:
Fastchas said:
Someone posted doubting her pay after 22 years. She told me this year she was on £25k but on a PT contract, with no ambition for promotion to Senior grades. I've no idea how this works, perhaps other Crew on here might enlighten us?
Your initial post/rant made no mention of the fact your sister works part-time in fact you made an issue of her “only” earning £25k and “having” to switch to the long commute It would be interesting to know how many hours she actually does and what the FTE actually is
As someone mentioned above if Long haul normally work 10 days a month full time ...
£25k for maybe (?) five or so days work a month sounds pretty excellent to tbf
I can see why she does it
You actually don’t get what you pay for.
In recent years many employers have been able to get a lot, as in an awful lot! More than they pay for.
Plenty of extremely well qualified and intelligent people earn minimum wage or not much more and zero hours contracts are the norm.
That applies to many fields.
In recent years many employers have been able to get a lot, as in an awful lot! More than they pay for.
Plenty of extremely well qualified and intelligent people earn minimum wage or not much more and zero hours contracts are the norm.
That applies to many fields.
Thankyou4calling said:
You actually don’t get what you pay for.
In recent years many employers have been able to get a lot, as in an awful lot! More than they pay for.
Plenty of extremely well qualified and intelligent people earn minimum wage or not much more and zero hours contracts are the norm.
That applies to many fields.
This is exactly what I said in an earlier post. The way management works in many industries now it seems is to achieve a situation where you drive everyone down as close as you can get them to minimum wage and somehow just ‘manage’ them. Experience, in their minds, count for nothing and everyone should be paid the same if they have 6 months or 30 years experience. Apart from them of course....In recent years many employers have been able to get a lot, as in an awful lot! More than they pay for.
Plenty of extremely well qualified and intelligent people earn minimum wage or not much more and zero hours contracts are the norm.
That applies to many fields.
ITP said:
This is exactly what I said in an earlier post. The way management works in many industries now it seems is to achieve a situation where you drive everyone down as close as you can get them to minimum wage and somehow just ‘manage’ them. Experience, in their minds, count for nothing and everyone should be paid the same if they have 6 months or 30 years experience. Apart from them of course....
Apologies for O/T and devil's advocate - if the output is exactly the same why shouldn't somebody with 30 years experience get paid the same as somebody with 6 months? There are some roles where it makes no difference if you've been doing the job 30 years and (in some cases) younger people fresh out of University or recently qualified might actually be worth more than somebody whose been doing the job for years and doesnt want things to change at all.Countdown said:
smack said:
It is not a free flight, you still have to pay all the taxes. The 'Annual Concession' is only eligible after a period of service (5 years?) , although company has given extra Annuals as a company bonus to everyone regardless of period of employment.
On a side note of the new hired cabin crew, aka Mixed Fleet, 30% of staff leave every year, due to pay and condition, and attracting young staff treat it as a way to see the world and party for a few years rather than a career. They get a base wage, starting at around £15k a year, flight pay (was a bit over £3 an hour), commission for in-flight retail sales, and potentially a bonus, maybe. Unless they still live at home, with a car bought them, that is not much money to live off, without a supporting partner, it is not uncommon for young crew to pack cereal in their case to eat in their hotel room when down route, if they have rent/bills/car lease to cover, and you are in Dubai, Singapore or US Cities where food and drink can be expensive. There is only so many new places they visit, and hours by the pool before boredom of a low paying job sets in.
In most industries, losing 30% staff a year would ring alarm bells.
It would.On a side note of the new hired cabin crew, aka Mixed Fleet, 30% of staff leave every year, due to pay and condition, and attracting young staff treat it as a way to see the world and party for a few years rather than a career. They get a base wage, starting at around £15k a year, flight pay (was a bit over £3 an hour), commission for in-flight retail sales, and potentially a bonus, maybe. Unless they still live at home, with a car bought them, that is not much money to live off, without a supporting partner, it is not uncommon for young crew to pack cereal in their case to eat in their hotel room when down route, if they have rent/bills/car lease to cover, and you are in Dubai, Singapore or US Cities where food and drink can be expensive. There is only so many new places they visit, and hours by the pool before boredom of a low paying job sets in.
In most industries, losing 30% staff a year would ring alarm bells.
I guess from the beancounters point of view - does the recruitment/training costs more or less than increasing salaries/bonuses/perks. It's always a balancing act. A quick Google suggests that the training period for Cabin Crew is 4-6 weeks, so BA are effectively getting 3 years service for that 6 week investment.
My wife was crew for over 20 years and there is certainly benefit in experience in this job but if the bean counters don’t think there is any benefit, usually without any hands on experience of course, then that’s their choice. It’s one thing starting as a 20 year old on low wages but if there is zero chance of any progression with experience then why would anyone bother? Just get a job in Tesco.
ITP said:
Going back to this from a bit earlier, what is happening is all the older experienced staff who are on more money have been hated by management for ages. As has been said these contracts are old and all the new ones are on very low pay. New starters don’t realise how hard the job is now, and as above, many subsequently leave these days. It means more and more of your crew are constantly only experienced between 0 and 2-3 years. Rinse and repeat. The older ones on more money are dwindling as they leave/retire. Eventually the whole crew becomes low pay.
My wife was crew for over 20 years and there is certainly benefit in experience in this job but if the bean counters don’t think there is any benefit, usually without any hands on experience of course, then that’s their choice. It’s one thing starting as a 20 year old on low wages but if there is zero chance of any progression with experience then why would anyone bother? Just get a job in Tesco.
Apologies again - you might think I'm being argumentative just for the sake of it but I'm not. I've had this conversation with people from the other side of the fenceMy wife was crew for over 20 years and there is certainly benefit in experience in this job but if the bean counters don’t think there is any benefit, usually without any hands on experience of course, then that’s their choice. It’s one thing starting as a 20 year old on low wages but if there is zero chance of any progression with experience then why would anyone bother? Just get a job in Tesco.
You say there is "benefit in experience" - I agree with the caveat that this applies to certain roles. For example I work in Finance - a Purchase Ledger Clerk with 30 years experience will have little to add over somebody with 6 months experience. It's a very process orientated role. However for somebody who works in a Finance Business Partner role experience adds much more value. And somebody who is a Finance specialist (eg Tax, Corporate Finance etc) there is a significant amount of benefit in having somebody with years/decades of experience.
In terms of BA I would assume that "Experience" matters very much for the Pilot roles but less so for Cabin Crew?
as I said above - if the Old Contracts could have been managed down to meet a more middle ground nearer the industry norm, it would be curious to see if sufficient.
Quality is a perception BA give - I am sure they would rather keep above the high turnover (and the high cost with respect to morales, training, onboarding learning curve etc) - but if the old guiard were refusing to renegotiate a more manageable position..... where is the blame to lie ?
Quality is a perception BA give - I am sure they would rather keep above the high turnover (and the high cost with respect to morales, training, onboarding learning curve etc) - but if the old guiard were refusing to renegotiate a more manageable position..... where is the blame to lie ?
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