Discussion
Countdown said:
Apologies again - you might think I'm being argumentative just for the sake of it but I'm not. I've had this conversation with people from the other side of the fence
You say there is "benefit in experience" - I agree with the caveat that this applies to certain roles. For example I work in Finance - a Purchase Ledger Clerk with 30 years experience will have little to add over somebody with 6 months experience. It's a very process orientated role. However for somebody who works in a Finance Business Partner role experience adds much more value. And somebody who is a Finance specialist (eg Tax, Corporate Finance etc) there is a significant amount of benefit in having somebody with years/decades of experience.
In terms of BA I would assume that "Experience" matters very much for the Pilot roles but less so for Cabin Crew?
No need for apologies, it’s only a car based discussion forum!You say there is "benefit in experience" - I agree with the caveat that this applies to certain roles. For example I work in Finance - a Purchase Ledger Clerk with 30 years experience will have little to add over somebody with 6 months experience. It's a very process orientated role. However for somebody who works in a Finance Business Partner role experience adds much more value. And somebody who is a Finance specialist (eg Tax, Corporate Finance etc) there is a significant amount of benefit in having somebody with years/decades of experience.
In terms of BA I would assume that "Experience" matters very much for the Pilot roles but less so for Cabin Crew?
From my experience, of being party to many cabin crew scenarios from my wife and others over 20 odd years, experience matters a lot when dealing with hundreds of passengers in a metal tube. Many, many things can happen which need resolving.
Some people can turn very odd when put in a position where they are being told what to do. Sit down/fasten your belt/put your bag away etc. Either cantankerous old gits or drunk (or not drunk) younger people who become very disagreeable. Not to mention people becoming very ill, or dying, with freaking out friends/relatives/other passengers. The crew have to deal with all of this whist the flight deck are locked in the cockpit. It can be quite a responsibility. You can’t put it off for a few hours or leave it for someone else to do. Office work it is not.
The more experienced the crew the more of these situations will have been encountered, and can be dealt with calmly. Do the wrong thing and you could make things worse. Training is all well and good but a ‘live’ situation is not the same as a training room. If you have a plane full of 22 year olds (no offence to them, you can’t learn everything by 22) on minimum wage I would not think it’s a good idea. A mix of experience I imagine would be best, with the younger ones learning from the more experienced rather than just relying on the training and no-one else as back up.
But apparently that’s not the modern way!
JxJ Jr. said:
wisbech said:
LHRFlightman said:
nessiemac said:
Cardo said:
People are so desperate to work for BA that up until the point the pandemic hit the company had been running a rolling recruitment campaign for engineering staff at Heathrow for the previous 3 years.By their own accounts they were short of 100 licensed aircraft engineers and despite continued campaigns were unable to fill those positions.That shows just how great the pay,perks and pension are at BA......
Indeed.So is BA not being able to fill engineering vacancies really a reflection on BA or merely on the industry as a whole?
The majority of well qualified and experienced applicants either walked away when they caught sight of the pay and T&C’s or took the job solely to avail themselves of a specific aircraft type course after which they left to go and work for another employer who was prepared to pay the market rate for an experienced aircraft engineer.
So yes,I would say that BA not being able to fill those vacancies was a reflection of BA’s low ball interpretation of “ market rate” as there was a multitude of other airlines that were employing B1/B2 and A licence techs ahead of them.
ITP said:
No need for apologies, it’s only a car based discussion forum!
From my experience, of being party to many cabin crew scenarios from my wife and others over 20 odd years, experience matters a lot when dealing with hundreds of passengers in a metal tube. Many, many things can happen which need resolving.
Some people can turn very odd when put in a position where they are being told what to do. Sit down/fasten your belt/put your bag away etc. Either cantankerous old gits or drunk (or not drunk) younger people who become very disagreeable. Not to mention people becoming very ill, or dying, with freaking out friends/relatives/other passengers. The crew have to deal with all of this whist the flight deck are locked in the cockpit. It can be quite a responsibility. You can’t put it off for a few hours or leave it for someone else to do. Office work it is not.
The more experienced the crew the more of these situations will have been encountered, and can be dealt with calmly. Do the wrong thing and you could make things worse. Training is all well and good but a ‘live’ situation is not the same as a training room. If you have a plane full of 22 year olds (no offence to them, you can’t learn everything by 22) on minimum wage I would not think it’s a good idea. A mix of experience I imagine would be best, with the younger ones learning from the more experienced rather than just relying on the training and no-one else as back up.
But apparently that’s not the modern way!
I had to deal with many air rage incidents and they can become pretty scary at times. Restraints, hand cuffs, physical contact and fisticuffs can be the end result of anyone kicking off. From my experience, of being party to many cabin crew scenarios from my wife and others over 20 odd years, experience matters a lot when dealing with hundreds of passengers in a metal tube. Many, many things can happen which need resolving.
Some people can turn very odd when put in a position where they are being told what to do. Sit down/fasten your belt/put your bag away etc. Either cantankerous old gits or drunk (or not drunk) younger people who become very disagreeable. Not to mention people becoming very ill, or dying, with freaking out friends/relatives/other passengers. The crew have to deal with all of this whist the flight deck are locked in the cockpit. It can be quite a responsibility. You can’t put it off for a few hours or leave it for someone else to do. Office work it is not.
The more experienced the crew the more of these situations will have been encountered, and can be dealt with calmly. Do the wrong thing and you could make things worse. Training is all well and good but a ‘live’ situation is not the same as a training room. If you have a plane full of 22 year olds (no offence to them, you can’t learn everything by 22) on minimum wage I would not think it’s a good idea. A mix of experience I imagine would be best, with the younger ones learning from the more experienced rather than just relying on the training and no-one else as back up.
But apparently that’s not the modern way!
The 'serving food and drink' part of the job is only a minor component of the complete picture.
ITP said:
Some people can turn very odd when put in a position where they are being told what to do. Sit down/fasten your belt/put your bag away etc.
Thing that annoys me - completely irrationally, I know - is when a member of the cabin crew is making an announcement to passengers over the intercom telephone thingy. Instead of holding it with the earpiece near their ear and the mouthpiece somewhere in front of their mouth, they just talk into the mouthpiece and the earpiece is anywhere. Yes, I know it's not a telephone call, and no one is going to be speaking to them into the earpiece, but it looks stupid and affected. Bit like people holding their mobile phones flat in front of their mouths. The Mad Monk said:
Earthdweller said:
Fastchas said:
Someone posted doubting her pay after 22 years. She told me this year she was on £25k but on a PT contract, with no ambition for promotion to Senior grades. I've no idea how this works, perhaps other Crew on here might enlighten us?
Your initial post/rant made no mention of the fact your sister works part-time in fact you made an issue of her “only” earning £25k and “having” to switch to the long commute It would be interesting to know how many hours she actually does and what the FTE actually is
As someone mentioned above if Long haul normally work 10 days a month full time ...
£25k for maybe (?) five or so days work a month sounds pretty excellent to tbf
I can see why she does it
Fastchas said:
The Mad Monk said:
Earthdweller said:
Fastchas said:
Someone posted doubting her pay after 22 years. She told me this year she was on £25k but on a PT contract, with no ambition for promotion to Senior grades. I've no idea how this works, perhaps other Crew on here might enlighten us?
Your initial post/rant made no mention of the fact your sister works part-time in fact you made an issue of her “only” earning £25k and “having” to switch to the long commute It would be interesting to know how many hours she actually does and what the FTE actually is
As someone mentioned above if Long haul normally work 10 days a month full time ...
£25k for maybe (?) five or so days work a month sounds pretty excellent to tbf
I can see why she does it
When my wife, a nurse, was working on wards, their shifts gave them excellent time off
Most of them worked “Bank” as they called it on some of their days off, effectively doing the day job for very enhanced rates.
It was a significant earner, to the point that some nurses gave up their staff jobs and just worked “Bank”
I’d imagine it’s not dissimilar for your sister, working over her contracted hours at an enhanced rate
Earthdweller said:
I can see that
When my wife, a nurse, was working on wards, their shifts gave them excellent time off
Most of them worked “Bank” as they called it on some of their days off, effectively doing the day job for very enhanced rates.
It was a significant earner, to the point that some nurses gave up their staff jobs and just worked “Bank”
I’d imagine it’s not dissimilar for your sister, working over her contracted hours at an enhanced rate
One of my very first jobs as a Trainee Accountant was processing bank nursing timesheets. You'd have to work out how much they got paid, pro-rata the NI/Pension between their "main role" and the bank costs, find out what their main cost centre was, find out every cost centre they had worked their bank hours in, and then do recharge journals. It was the most boring awful job in the world. It's why watching Carry on Nursing still causes me episodes of PTSD When my wife, a nurse, was working on wards, their shifts gave them excellent time off
Most of them worked “Bank” as they called it on some of their days off, effectively doing the day job for very enhanced rates.
It was a significant earner, to the point that some nurses gave up their staff jobs and just worked “Bank”
I’d imagine it’s not dissimilar for your sister, working over her contracted hours at an enhanced rate
The enhanced rates were the same as O/T rates for normal nurses as far as I can remember? They would get O/T@1.33 or 1.5 or Unsocial @1.33 or 1.5 depending on if they'd worked evenings/nights. i think the big advantage of bank nursing was the flexibility.
Countdown said:
Earthdweller said:
I can see that
When my wife, a nurse, was working on wards, their shifts gave them excellent time off
Most of them worked “Bank” as they called it on some of their days off, effectively doing the day job for very enhanced rates.
It was a significant earner, to the point that some nurses gave up their staff jobs and just worked “Bank”
I’d imagine it’s not dissimilar for your sister, working over her contracted hours at an enhanced rate
One of my very first jobs as a Trainee Accountant was processing bank nursing timesheets. You'd have to work out how much they got paid, pro-rata the NI/Pension between their "main role" and the bank costs, find out what their main cost centre was, find out every cost centre they had worked their bank hours in, and then do recharge journals. It was the most boring awful job in the world. It's why watching Carry on Nursing still causes me episodes of PTSD When my wife, a nurse, was working on wards, their shifts gave them excellent time off
Most of them worked “Bank” as they called it on some of their days off, effectively doing the day job for very enhanced rates.
It was a significant earner, to the point that some nurses gave up their staff jobs and just worked “Bank”
I’d imagine it’s not dissimilar for your sister, working over her contracted hours at an enhanced rate
The enhanced rates were the same as O/T rates for normal nurses as far as I can remember? They would get O/T@1.33 or 1.5 or Unsocial @1.33 or 1.5 depending on if they'd worked evenings/nights. i think the big advantage of bank nursing was the flexibility.
She used to do an an extra night or two then onto rest days
I do recall it being complicated, as you say, extra for unsocial hours, then extra again for weekends and yet more for a Sunday
I think a night shift on a Sunday was the holy grail money wise
Welshbeef said:
Are BA not asking for a 60% pay cut ? I’d wager everyone lives to the salary they earn so it’s not very easy to lose 60% income especially if day mortgage is 40% of their salary.
The same happened in banking twelve or so years ago. There was a bit of an oversupply after the crash and banks changed their pay models, with a lot of people taking very significant cuts.Not that many of us left, so it suggests that the management called it about right.
We've had a guy round doing some of the interior decorating.
Turns out he was a BA pilot of furlough trying his hand for some spare cash and an alternate life if needed with all this Covid, and not knowing when he was to go back to work.
He did a cracking job of the landing I have to say,
Turns out he was a BA pilot of furlough trying his hand for some spare cash and an alternate life if needed with all this Covid, and not knowing when he was to go back to work.
He did a cracking job of the landing I have to say,
from another thread : https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/business/compani...
Emirates - 600 pilots, gone.
Emirates - 600 pilots, gone.
PushedDover said:
We've had a guy round doing some of the interior decorating.
Turns out he was a BA pilot of furlough trying his hand for some spare cash and an alternate life if needed with all this Covid, and not knowing when he was to go back to work.
He did a cracking job of the landing I have to say,
Did he take off all the old paint and stuff first?Turns out he was a BA pilot of furlough trying his hand for some spare cash and an alternate life if needed with all this Covid, and not knowing when he was to go back to work.
He did a cracking job of the landing I have to say,
In seriousness- just been asked by said Cabin director whatever friend in an email to printout this and put in the house window (pointless as can’t be seen by anyone unless visiting the house) and the car(s). Also pointless as not driving anywhere
Not to mention pointless as it will change nothing.
Not to mention pointless as it will change nothing.
Spoke to my sister today. She said yesterday was d-day but nothings happened yet, prob because of all the negative publicity.
She has been given her roster for July though, although there are 0 trips on it, just all month on-call. Said as well that her being furloughed ends this month -so that BA can’t be accused of taking the taxpayer’s £ AND sacking the staff.
It won’t be long until the union submits notice to go on strike. Is it six weeks? Tempers are very high against management and a high vote expected to walk out.
She has been given her roster for July though, although there are 0 trips on it, just all month on-call. Said as well that her being furloughed ends this month -so that BA can’t be accused of taking the taxpayer’s £ AND sacking the staff.
It won’t be long until the union submits notice to go on strike. Is it six weeks? Tempers are very high against management and a high vote expected to walk out.
Fastchas said:
...nothings happened yet, prob because of all the negative publicity.
Willie Walsh's response to the recent Transport Committee's report is quoted in The Telegraph today, doesn't appear to be in a conciliatory mood - https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2020/06/15/wi...If you can't access it, quotes attributed to him:
acting in a “perfectly lawful manner”
“This is not a disgrace. Lying down and surrendering without a fight would be a disgrace and we will not do that.”
“You made clear several weeks ago that the report would be 'fuelled by the kind and impassioned messages' you received, rather than the facts....The facts, however, are clear. The Government has no plans to help the sector restart and recover as evidenced by the introduction of the 14-day quarantine regulation.”
ETA - I suspect industrial action may be a rather high risk and ineffectual strategy in the current environment.
Edited by JxJ Jr. on Tuesday 16th June 22:43
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