Employer Work-From-Home / Covid Troubles
Discussion
Venturist said:
It doesn’t sit well with me that the government is asking me to give all that up so I can prop up office landlords, cleaners, and Tesco with my lunchtime meal deal purchases.
Rationally I know the economy is a huge complex beast and there will be problems if the office-related service jobs disappear due to widespread WFH but - I’ve had a taste of the work life balance I always wanted and I like it.
Have a discussion with your boss. Ask them why they want you and your team back in the office. If you genuinely think productivity hasn't suffered, make that case. If your boss can't articulate why he thinks it's a good idea and he's says "it's policy", or words to that effect, ask him to ask his boss. No one wants to make bad decisions or to establish bad policies. Constructive feedback from people at the coal face is invaluable. It's everyone's responsibility to try to make a company efficient and that includes helping people avoid making bad decisions.
LHRFlightman said:
If it helps, I know that the Department for Transport wont be reopening the offices on Horseferry Rd until next year. Staff to WFH until then at least. I'd assume that will apply to most Govt departments.
Do you have access to anything public to substantiate that please? Not questioning, I'm asking as it would be useful reference for planning our own approach.Venturist said:
It will be interesting to see how things unfold. Personally WFH life is suiting me well. I’m healthier and happier than ever before - I’m far fitter, well rested, less stressed, eating better, taking better care of myself all round. I have more free time to do the things I love and more money to spend on things I actually care about. I’m equally productive if not more & just as happy as always to work extra hours on occasion to help with deadlines etc.
So did you have a long commute before? If you are equally productive how are you generating all the spare time to do all these things?Countdown said:
It's not the Government that decides - it will be the boss(es). At the moment Employees have been more or less able to demand that they WFH because the "Govt says so!". That stage is coming to an end and we're entering a stage where the bosses will be deciding where people work from.
The fact of the matter is bosses have no real desire to pay for rent, heating, lighting, cleaning or reception staff so if they can maximise profits by letting people WFH they will. And most people can and do work fine without needing a manager sat on their shoulder. But some can't . And for those people who skive Managers will feel that they want to see them sat at a desk between 9 and 5.
At the end of the day your Manager decides where you work from. If your manager is happy for you to WFH then all well and good. If he's not happy then you need to convince him via your stellar work performance that you can be trusted to work on your own and you're not one of the skivers. If you're amazing and knocking it our of the park every week and he's still not happy then he'll regret it when you're snapped up by a more flexible rival.
This is a fair summary of the situation. I think there is a great deal of room for more flexible working in terms of WFH in many businesses. What I'm also acutely aware of is that it won't work or be effective/efficient for many. Not everybody is lucky enough to have spare rooms in their house to set aside for work & even when they do they may have young children or pets making a nuisance of themselves. Many may prefer it but they just don't have the environment to support effective working. The fact of the matter is bosses have no real desire to pay for rent, heating, lighting, cleaning or reception staff so if they can maximise profits by letting people WFH they will. And most people can and do work fine without needing a manager sat on their shoulder. But some can't . And for those people who skive Managers will feel that they want to see them sat at a desk between 9 and 5.
At the end of the day your Manager decides where you work from. If your manager is happy for you to WFH then all well and good. If he's not happy then you need to convince him via your stellar work performance that you can be trusted to work on your own and you're not one of the skivers. If you're amazing and knocking it our of the park every week and he's still not happy then he'll regret it when you're snapped up by a more flexible rival.
GT03ROB said:
So did you have a long commute before? If you are equally productive how are you generating all the spare time to do all these things?
I only had a fifteen minute walk before!Add up that commute with a half hour or so of getting ready before work, because now you can just fall into your spare room office 10 seconds after getting out of bed, and that’s an hour a day straight away.
I live in a nice verdant area and I’m enjoying going for a run at lunch for my break. I could have done this from the office I suppose, but it’s far more appealing when I can take a shower (in my own bathroom, not a workplace one) and then spend the first hour of the afternoon air drying in a towel
I have very rarely had the desire to go for a run before/after work in normal life.
My job also involves a lot of waiting around for the computer to process something, that time has always been dead time even whilst in the office, but now I can use that time productively for personal things because nobody is looking over my shoulder. People don’t like to see their staff making a personal call, or browsing the internet, even when it is impossible for them to do anything productive in that time. Now I can use it to sort some domestic chores for example. (No, there isn’t any paperwork or anything I should be doing in that time instead)
Thinking aloud, what’s changed is mostly psychological I suppose. I have long thought there is a low-level psychological stressor of spending your day somewhere public, versus in your own space.
TwistingMyMelon said:
Get back to work or find a job that suits your lifestyle choice
As an employer this attitude is driving me nuts
I'm sorry that following the government guidelines upsets you so much.As an employer this attitude is driving me nuts
I'm sure following all that Health & Safety compliance drives you nuts, too. And employment law.
TwistingMyMelon said:
Get back to work or find a job that suits your lifestyle choice
As an employer this attitude is driving me nuts
As an employer are you happy to have all of your staff come back, one of them copping for Covid without knowing it, infecting everyone else that you employ, including possibly you and, by association, your family? As an employer this attitude is driving me nuts
Some will be asymptomatic
Some will need time off feeling very unwell
Some might be admitted to hospital, being very unwell indeed
Some (small risk) might die.
Or, do you stop acting like an adult baby, and say this is not my employees' fault. As a responsible employer I will do all I can to make their continued employment as Covid-safe as possible, which is generally them being able to work from home if they can, because we're all in this s
t togetherObviously there will be the odd lead-swinger who does not pull their weight, but as a Powerfully Built Company Director of PH you're probably more than capable of dealing with the odd bad apple, ensuring that the majority remain safe.
PurpleTurtle said:
Obviously there will be the odd lead-swinger who does not pull their weight, but as a Powerfully Built Company Director of PH you're probably more than capable of dealing with the odd bad apple, ensuring that the majority remain safe.
Call me cynical but I wouldn't be surprised if there's a strong correlation between those using COVID19 reasons to demand they be allowed to WFH and those that have a tendency to swing the lead.Yes COVID19 is out there. Yes, with precautions it can be mitigated until the risk is negligible. "You" might think that the work is "being done". Actually the person who can really see how much work is being delivered is the Powerfully Built PH Director. And it's much easier to manage the 2 or 3 lead swingers if everybody is IN the office than to try and manage them individually via Skype.
It’s a classic case of idealism verses realism , the economic fall out could eclipse the damage done by Covid . In an ideal world we would all be working from home sipping chardonnay in our log cabins, in the real world wfm isnt working for lots of people.
Don’t get me wrong covid is a nasty disease that should be respected and has devastated people’s lives across the globe
This very middle class notion that WFM Is simply wonderful and productivity is through the roof , isn’t true . Some people are working better at home , some the same , lots are simply working worse at home, their concentration, interaction and output is down.
Now with the worse lot you can give them a socially distanced HR cuddle , coach them and offer of help. But what do you do when that doesn’t work ? You get them back in the office as their output was fine when they worked there, yet has dropped after 3 months of WFM
Lots of people don’t have studies , outside offices , spare rooms , some are balancing laptops on their sofas whilst trying to look after kids .
My personal view is lots of people are loving WFM and using the scare stories from Covid stirred by the Daily Mail et al to cement their view that it should never end
Lots of office decisions are London centric, our office is very remote , no shared space with other companies and you cant use public transport to get here anyway.
Don’t get me wrong covid is a nasty disease that should be respected and has devastated people’s lives across the globe
This very middle class notion that WFM Is simply wonderful and productivity is through the roof , isn’t true . Some people are working better at home , some the same , lots are simply working worse at home, their concentration, interaction and output is down.
Now with the worse lot you can give them a socially distanced HR cuddle , coach them and offer of help. But what do you do when that doesn’t work ? You get them back in the office as their output was fine when they worked there, yet has dropped after 3 months of WFM
Lots of people don’t have studies , outside offices , spare rooms , some are balancing laptops on their sofas whilst trying to look after kids .
My personal view is lots of people are loving WFM and using the scare stories from Covid stirred by the Daily Mail et al to cement their view that it should never end
Lots of office decisions are London centric, our office is very remote , no shared space with other companies and you cant use public transport to get here anyway.
Edited by TwistingMyMelon on Wednesday 15th July 14:10
Countdown said:
PurpleTurtle said:
Obviously there will be the odd lead-swinger who does not pull their weight, but as a Powerfully Built Company Director of PH you're probably more than capable of dealing with the odd bad apple, ensuring that the majority remain safe.
Call me cynical but I wouldn't be surprised if there's a strong correlation between those using COVID19 reasons to demand they be allowed to WFH and those that have a tendency to swing the lead.Yes COVID19 is out there. Yes, with precautions it can be mitigated until the risk is negligible. "You" might think that the work is "being done". Actually the person who can really see how much work is being delivered is the Powerfully Built PH Director. And it's much easier to manage the 2 or 3 lead swingers if everybody is IN the office than to try and manage them individually via Skype.
WFM simply isnt working for everyone, yes it works for lots of staff, but some for some it isnt working, yet they worked very well when office based, do you re-write the meaning of life or get them back in an office that complies with the current regulations?
Going back to the OPs post, I would grit me teeth and get on with it, the waves of redundancies are starting, being a difficult member of staff will fastrack you up the list if your dept is venerable
Sometimes in life you just need to understand the risks and just get on with it
Edited by TwistingMyMelon on Wednesday 15th July 14:11
TwistingMyMelon said:
It’s a classic case of idealism verses realism , the economic fall out could eclipse the damage done by Covid . In an ideal world we would all be working from home sipping chardonnay in our log cabins, in the real world wfm isnt working for lots of people.
Don’t get me wrong covid is a nasty disease that should be respected and has devastated people’s lives across the globe
This very middle class notion that WFM Is simply wonderful and productivity is through the roof , isn’t true . Some people are working better at home , some the same , lots are simply working worse at home, their concentration, interaction and output is down.
Now with the worse lot you can give them a socially distanced HR cuddle , coach them and offer of help. But what do you do when that doesn’t work ? You get them back in the office as their output was fine when they worked there, yet has dropped after 3 months of WFM
Lots of people don’t have studies , outside offices , spare rooms , some are balancing laptops on their sofas whilst trying to look after kids .
My personal view is lots of people are loving WFM and using the scare stories from Covid stirred by the Daily Mail et al to cement their view that it should never end
Lots of office decisions are London centric, our office is very remote , no shared space with other companies and you cant use public transport to get here anyway.
But you are conveniently ignoring the OP's fourth paragraph:Don’t get me wrong covid is a nasty disease that should be respected and has devastated people’s lives across the globe
This very middle class notion that WFM Is simply wonderful and productivity is through the roof , isn’t true . Some people are working better at home , some the same , lots are simply working worse at home, their concentration, interaction and output is down.
Now with the worse lot you can give them a socially distanced HR cuddle , coach them and offer of help. But what do you do when that doesn’t work ? You get them back in the office as their output was fine when they worked there, yet has dropped after 3 months of WFM
Lots of people don’t have studies , outside offices , spare rooms , some are balancing laptops on their sofas whilst trying to look after kids .
My personal view is lots of people are loving WFM and using the scare stories from Covid stirred by the Daily Mail et al to cement their view that it should never end
Lots of office decisions are London centric, our office is very remote , no shared space with other companies and you cant use public transport to get here anyway.
Edited by TwistingMyMelon on Wednesday 15th July 14:10
No-one has been furloughed and I don't think there's been any real issues with productivity - roughly half the employees work from home full time anyway.The business has not "closed" during this period.
The OP thinks a return so soon is an unnecessary risk. Obviously none of us have an accurate view of his organisation's actual productivity, other than what he tells us.
My org is saying "come back if you want to" - some people are charging back because of those reasons (space/logistics/kids etc) but nobody should feel bullied back to work, as he clearly is, if they are still delivering the proverbial goods.
PurpleTurtle said:
But you are conveniently ignoring the OP's fourth paragraph:
No-one has been furloughed and I don't think there's been any real issues with productivity - roughly half the employees work from home full time anyway.The business has not "closed" during this period.
The OP thinks a return so soon is an unnecessary risk. Obviously none of us have an accurate view of his organisation's actual productivity, other than what he tells us.
My org is saying "come back if you want to" - some people are charging back because of those reasons (space/logistics/kids etc) but nobody should feel bullied back to work, as he clearly is, if they are still delivering the proverbial goods.
We are not at the point yet where people should be forced to come back if they can work from home. Between the employer & employees there must/should be some alignment on what constitutes acceptable performance/productivity. If it is evident this is not being met then there needs to be a discussion about how this can be achieved. One option being return to the office. No-one has been furloughed and I don't think there's been any real issues with productivity - roughly half the employees work from home full time anyway.The business has not "closed" during this period.
The OP thinks a return so soon is an unnecessary risk. Obviously none of us have an accurate view of his organisation's actual productivity, other than what he tells us.
My org is saying "come back if you want to" - some people are charging back because of those reasons (space/logistics/kids etc) but nobody should feel bullied back to work, as he clearly is, if they are still delivering the proverbial goods.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Hmm, interesting. My role is computer based and everything is done over a network, even when on site. It is not customer facing. The only argument against WFH is if it was less productive than in the office. However management has said they are really happy with how well it’s going.
Current employer - no. The value I provide to the business is in my opinion completely unaffected by being at home. Giving me a pay cut especially when they’re seeing cost savings by not running the office, would be a slap in the face.
Future employers - I would definitely have to have a really good think about higher paid office vs lower paid WFH role. The decision would be based on specifics I think.
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