Gender Pronouns at Work

[romeogolf]

menguin said:

...aaand when you have 60 people with different pronouns, you're expected to remember them all otherwise you're insensitive? Remembering people's names is hard enough when you aren't directly working with them continually. To have this brought up as some sort of slight is just ludicrous. I often send emails with "Hi guys" to a mixed group. No one has killed themselves in despair yet.

Surely the whole point of including pronouns in your email signature is so that others don't have to remember them, because they're right there? In some offices people use stickers on the back of their laptops so when you approach their desk it's there to be seen with no awkwardness, much the same as a name badge.

Moving away from "hi guys" to "hi all" or "hi folks" or "hi everyone", depending on what sounds most natural to you, is a really simple way of just being more inclusive. It's a really minor change, but to my mind the smaller that change is, the easier it is to make, and the less effort it takes on my part to make someone else feel comfortable. To be clear, this particular one is a really, really, small conversation point and I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who feels that strongly about "guys" being used for a mixed group.

More relevant is the "Ladies and gentleman" greeting which is often cited as uncomfortable for non-binary people. Easy to replace with "Dear Students-", "Welcome all-", "Hello everyone-" or whatever else fits the occasion. And using one of those will have absolutely no noticeable impact on those who don't take an issue with the original phrase; Win-win.

By way of more general reply to the thread and some items discussed;

I'm male, cis-gendered (born male, identify as male) and use he/him pronouns. I use them in a lot of my social media and work communication not because I think others might misgender me, but so that people who are often misgendered don't feel awkward sharing their own pronouns.

A comparison people draw on is being called the wrong name. If I sign off an email as "Rob" and get a reply to "Robert" that might wind me up a little if my name is actually "Robin". So in my reply, I'd put my full name, Robin, as a gentle hint. If the recipient insists again on calling me Robert then I'd probably find it a bit rude. If I later found out they were doing it just because they didn't like me and knew it would wind me up, that's offensive.

Equally with pronouns. Getting it wrong once is no big deal, but once you're corrected you should make the effort to remember it. We seem to manage when people change their names after marriage, so this should be no great challenge. Repeatedly failing is a bit rude, and yes, doing it on purpose, for whatever reason, is offensive.

[romeogolf]

wastedyouth86 said:

I often wonder who would win in one of these super woke companies, say for an example some one wanted to change genders but then some really religious person would not acknowledge this and complained it would be a fun time in the HR department as they would both be protected classes.

Nope. It is not considered religious discrimination to ask someone to use someone's correct pronouns.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-4...

This is one of several cases where the religious argument has failed.

[Chainsaw Rebuild]

I have no time for people making up their own pronouns, and will never use “ze” or such nonsense. Pretty much most of the people I work with are the same on the quiet.

[wastedyouth86]

romeogolf said:

Nope. It is not considered religious discrimination to ask someone to use someone's correct pronouns.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-4...

This is one of several cases where the religious argument has failed.

Correct to who though, you can say you want to be whatever you want it doesn't mean it is true. I don't care if they want me to call them them/they, him/her or non binary i will call them what they want, But it does not make me a bad person if i do not share the same opinion.

[Dagnir]

Playing devil's advocate here but...

Can I demand to be called Sir or Lord or Your Superiority and is it rude when people refuse?

Other than politeness or compassion. What's the difference?

[Cheeses of Nazareth]

Chainsaw Rebuild said:

I have no time for people making up their own pronouns, and will never use “ze” or such nonsense. Pretty much most of the people I work with are the same on the quiet.

Same here , we had one at my last place , and I just refused her ( maybe a her) meeting requests, which got escalated. I showed evidence as to why I no longer had time to waste when attending her meetings , when minutes showed our input that was constantly ignored, as a department, led to project delays that were easily avoided.

In what was a piece of genius, I sent an understudy , who was a recent graduate, and a lesbian , to represent us, and she came back and agreed she was an ahole too.

When asked why I sent her , I said I wanted them to see the kind of people I have in my department on merit.

[Benrad]

I work with global teams, I won't know what pronouns a new contact might prefer, simply because I can't infer it from their name (even before you get into further complications). If this becomes widespread at my company then it might save me a red face every now and again, seems like sensible information to have in an email signature to me

[Dynion Araf Uchaf]

romeogolf said:

A comparison people draw on is being called the wrong name. If I sign off an email as "Rob" and get a reply to "Robert" that might wind me up a little if my name is actually "Robin". So in my reply, I'd put my full name, Robin, as a gentle hint. If the recipient insists again on calling me Robert then I'd probably find it a bit rude. If I later found out they were doing it just because they didn't like me and knew it would wind me up, that's offensive.

that's me fked then. I have a colleague called Anthony, who on first meeting him said " Hi I'm Anthony, not TONY, I don't respond to Tony." So clearly ever since then I've called him Tony, he hates it, and gets me back by calling me Billy, which I don't like either, but it's not offensive, funny more than anything. And just in case you ask, yes I am friends with Tony..

[Shuvi McTupya]

romeogolf said:

A comparison people draw on is being called the wrong name. If I sign off an email as "Rob" and get a reply to "Robert" that might wind me up a little if my name is actually "Robin".

In this current PC minefield, anyone using a gender fluid forename really should specify which pronoun they prefer..

[irocfan]

Just refer to me as him/he or, in a pinch, sthead and it'll all be good.

That being said I'm useless with names, forgetting them bare minutes after being told them - ze or similar? No fking chance

[romeogolf]

Dagnir said:

Playing devil's advocate here but...

Can I demand to be called Sir or Lord or Your Superiority and is it rude when people refuse?

Other than politeness or compassion. What's the difference?

Sir, Lord, Lady etc are titles, not pronouns. They carry legal status.

[romeogolf]

wastedyouth86 said:

romeogolf said:

Nope. It is not considered religious discrimination to ask someone to use someone's correct pronouns.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-4...

This is one of several cases where the religious argument has failed.

Correct to who though, you can say you want to be whatever you want it doesn't mean it is true. I don't care if they want me to call them them/they, him/her or non binary i will call them what they want, But it does not make me a bad person if i do not share the same opinion.

Correct to the person who uses them. Pronouns, like your name or nickname, are a choice. They reflect how you see yourself and how you want to be seen.

If you met Sean but told him, in your opinion, his name should be spelt Shaun so you're only going to call him "Seen", or you're going to spell his name the way you want to every time you email him, you'd be a bit of a fool. As with pronouns, if Sean prefers they/them, that's their choice and it's not for you to have an opinion on.

[Noodle1982]

romeogolf said:

Dagnir said:

Playing devil's advocate here but...

Can I demand to be called Sir or Lord or Your Superiority and is it rude when people refuse?

Other than politeness or compassion. What's the difference?

Sir, Lord, Lady etc are titles, not pronouns. They carry legal status.

There's no way the two spirited pansexual gender queer transgender lesbian in our office would acknowledge someone with pro nouns such as sir, lord and lady.

[Dagnir]

romeogolf said:

Dagnir said:

Playing devil's advocate here but...

Can I demand to be called Sir or Lord or Your Superiority and is it rude when people refuse?

Other than politeness or compassion. What's the difference?

Sir, Lord, Lady etc are titles, not pronouns. They carry legal status.

Think you missed my point

If they don't have to be factual anymore and If i chose them as my pronouns, wouldn't they be my pronouns?

[Dagnir]

romeogolf said:

Correct to the person who uses them. Pronouns, like your name or nickname, are a choice. They reflect how you see yourself and how you want to be seen.

If you met Sean but told him, in your opinion, his name should be spelt Shaun so you're only going to call him "Seen", or you're going to spell his name the way you want to every time you email him, you'd be a bit of a fool. As with pronouns, if Sean prefers they/them, that's their choice and it's not for you to have an opinion on.

This is not an equivalent comparison. One's a different spelling and one is the opposite meaning.

Pronouns are not a choice. They should reflect identifying language used, in relation to your sex.

[romeogolf]

Dagnir said:

romeogolf said:

Dagnir said:

Playing devil's advocate here but...

Can I demand to be called Sir or Lord or Your Superiority and is it rude when people refuse?

Other than politeness or compassion. What's the difference?

Sir, Lord, Lady etc are titles, not pronouns. They carry legal status.

Think you missed my point

If they don't have to be factual anymore and If i chose them as my pronouns, wouldn't they be my pronouns?

No, because they're not pronouns, they're titles. Both legally and semantically.

"Did you speak to Dagnir yesterday? Your Superiority is going to Spain next week."
"Is Your Superiority really? Lovely weather this time of year."
"Yeah, Your Superiority said it should be quiet after half term..."

[romeogolf]

Dagnir said:

romeogolf said:

Correct to the person who uses them. Pronouns, like your name or nickname, are a choice. They reflect how you see yourself and how you want to be seen.

If you met Sean but told him, in your opinion, his name should be spelt Shaun so you're only going to call him "Seen", or you're going to spell his name the way you want to every time you email him, you'd be a bit of a fool. As with pronouns, if Sean prefers they/them, that's their choice and it's not for you to have an opinion on.

This is not an equivalent comparison. One's a different spelling and one is the opposite meaning.

Pronouns are not a choice. They should reflect identifying language used, in relation to your sex.

They are, and they don't. This isn't really an opinion, it's a fact. Pronouns are chosen by those who use them, and they reflect that person's own identity, their gender (social characteristics), not their sex (biology). You can argue it until you're blue in the face, but you'll do nothing other than wind yourself up and irritate people who just want you to use their pronouns correctly.

[Dagnir]

romeogolf said:

Dagnir said:

romeogolf said:

Correct to the person who uses them. Pronouns, like your name or nickname, are a choice. They reflect how you see yourself and how you want to be seen.

If you met Sean but told him, in your opinion, his name should be spelt Shaun so you're only going to call him "Seen", or you're going to spell his name the way you want to every time you email him, you'd be a bit of a fool. As with pronouns, if Sean prefers they/them, that's their choice and it's not for you to have an opinion on.

This is not an equivalent comparison. One's a different spelling and one is the opposite meaning.

Pronouns are not a choice. They should reflect identifying language used, in relation to your sex.

They are, and they don't. This isn't really an opinion, it's a fact. Pronouns are chosen by those who use them, and they reflect that person's own identity, their gender (social characteristics), not their sex (biology). You can argue it until you're blue in the face, but you'll do nothing other than wind yourself up and irritate people who just want you to use their pronouns correctly.

In your world, people are allowed to make up pronouns with no factual basis to them.

If i decide that my pronoun is 'Godship' you have to call me Godship Dagnir.

You think this is safe, logical, fair and sustainable?

[romeogolf]

Dagnir said:

In your world, people are allowed to make up pronouns with no factual basis to them.

If i decide that my pronoun is 'Godship' you have to call me Godship Dagnir.

You think this is safe, logical, fair and sustainable?

That's a title, not a pronoun. A pronoun replaces your name in a sentence, it doesn't add to it.

"This is Godship Dagnir, they don't understand pronouns yet."

[Dagnir]

romeogolf said:

Dagnir said:

In your world, people are allowed to make up pronouns with no factual basis to them.

If i decide that my pronoun is 'Godship' you have to call me Godship Dagnir.

You think this is safe, logical, fair and sustainable?

That's a title, not a pronoun. A pronoun replaces your name in a sentence, it doesn't add to it.

"This is Godship Dagnir, they don't understand pronouns yet."

Lol

Oh go on then, one more time...i'll translate into woke for you.

My pronouns that I am choosing are:

He = Godship
His = Godships
Him = Godliness

"Dagnir thinks it's funny when misguided fools attempt to be condescending. Godships patience with these posters is impressive. They are wasting their time trying to score points over Godliness.


So going back now...

In your world I am allowed to choose these pronouns because they are who I represent.

Do you think this is reasonable, logical, fair and sustainable for society?

Or should we just use standard rules to dictate language as this doesn't discriminate against anyone?