Things you hate about Job Adverts/Recruitment

[CharlieCrocodile]

okgo said:

How do you have no idea what you are worth? That seems mad to me.

I do, but I'm not going to waste my time applying for a job that's paying £35k when I'm worth £55K all because the company are chancing it by not advertising the salary.

[Munter]

okgo said:

CharlieCrocodile said:

You do know that Data Lake is a Microsoft Azure product don't you? Or is there a whoosh parrot coming my way?

Anyway, looking for roles at the moment on linkedin, hardly any have salaries listed which is annoying in the extreme.

How do you have no idea what you are worth? That seems mad to me.

I assume okgo you work in recruitment.

It's not working. Rather than try and force everybody to try an understand a concept from your point of view. How about, you view it from the view of the people trying to interact with you. Because what happens at the moment is people just skip those job adverts. Then clients miss out on seeing all the potential candidates.

Or you ps off everybody who did apply, before they interact with the company. Great first impression.

[Crudeoink]

Searching for any engineering role is a nightmare, invariably returns 10,000 results from the likes of Subway refer to a sandwich maker as something along the lines of "Sandwich Construction Engineer". Even more frustration when looking for a systems engineering role because almost any job spec even remotely technical has the word System in. Then the third wave of BS is filtering all the companies that don't understand the difference between a system engineer and a systemS engineer.

[okgo]

Munter said:

I assume okgo you work in recruitment.

It's not working. Rather than try and force everybody to try an understand a concept from your point of view. How about, you view it from the view of the people trying to interact with you. Because what happens at the moment is people just skip those job adverts. Then clients miss out on seeing all the potential candidates.

Or you ps off everybody who did apply, before they interact with the company. Great first impression.

You assume wrong.

I'd imagine most companies are not worried about that, any job I see on LinkedIn has had hundreds of people apply, getting fewer applications is no bad thing.

[Evanivitch]

Crudeoink said:

Searching for any engineering role is a nightmare, invariably returns 10,000 results from the likes of Subway refer to a sandwich maker as something along the lines of "Sandwich Construction Engineer". Even more frustration when looking for a systems engineering role because almost any job spec even remotely technical has the word System in. Then the third wave of BS is filtering all the companies that don't understand the difference between a system engineer and a systemS engineer.

I know this pain.

[dibblecorse]

Munter said:

I assume okgo you work in recruitment.

It's not working. Rather than try and force everybody to try an understand a concept from your point of view. How about, you view it from the view of the people trying to interact with you. Because what happens at the moment is people just skip those job adverts. Then clients miss out on seeing all the potential candidates.

Or you ps off everybody who did apply, before they interact with the company. Great first impression.

But the people skipping those ads obviously don't understand the market for which they are written, find me a cloud architect or a cybersecurity consultant that doesn't know their value within c10%, they can also read and understand what a role is / isn't looking for and work out its relevance from an alignment perspective first, is the work interesting, is the employer interesting, is it the right degree of customer interaction / hands on tech etc etc etc ....

The right people don't need to see a salary, they know the value of these roles and their own.

As I have said, very occasionally there is a disconnect, sometimes the potential employer gets bad market data and budgets badly or the candidate has a massively skewed opinion of their value but thats less than 3% of the time.

Also this is all concentrated on the pro-active candidate, they only make up c30% of all the hires made, the general industry norm in tech is 30% Applications, 25% Referrals from existing staff, 35% Proactive sourcing of passive candidates either directly or via 3rd party agencies, the last 15% are filled by internal motions and promotions etc.

Thats how jobs get filled.

[Pugaris]

dibblecorse said:

A Player
Ninja
Rockstar
Evangelist
Guru
Disruptor
A Game
Culture Complimentor
Ability to wrangle ideas
Idea machine

MARILYN MONROE! WE DIDN'T START THE FIRE...

[Buzz84]

MrsMiggins said:

xx99xx said:

'£competitive'

Just list a bloody salary range or a minimum and avoid wasting everyone's time.

This all day long. Why is it so hard to say what the pay is? I don't go to work every day for love of the company.

Even worse is that they won't tell you a range or any indication and then ask you as the applicant to state your "salary expectation".

So what, I have to bid for the job? and if I get he number wrong what happens? I could be the best person for the job but fail a round of "what number am I thinking of" so get rejected.

[InitialDave]

Evanivitch said:

Crudeoink said:

Searching for any engineering role is a nightmare, invariably returns 10,000 results from the likes of Subway refer to a sandwich maker as something along the lines of "Sandwich Construction Engineer". Even more frustration when looking for a systems engineering role because almost any job spec even remotely technical has the word System in. Then the third wave of BS is filtering all the companies that don't understand the difference between a system engineer and a systemS engineer.

I know this pain.

[Pugaris]

Buzz84 said:

Even worse is that they won't tell you a range or any indication and then ask you as the applicant to state your "salary expectation".

So what, I have to bid for the job? and if I get he number wrong what happens? I could be the best person for the job but fail a round of "what number am I thinking of" so get rejected.

In any application that asks for salary expectation, I put "tbd" - never been a problem. I've never once named a number first, if someone asks what I'm looking for I tell them to give me their range and then tell them roughly where I'll be on that ("my expectations are comfortably within that range, we can discuss when making an offer" or "I'm going to be at the very top end of that and need some seriously competitive benefits to make it work for me")

[ecs]

No salary range in the description; I'm not going to go through pre-screening, a technical interview and probably some kind of tech test to find out that you want to pay me £20k less than I'm on now.

Brings me onto another one; technical tests for software engineers. I've found over the years that they're usually a vehicle for the CTO or lead dev to demonstrate how much they think they know about something. I've done them for people who ask all sorts of asinine questions about data structures or low level stuff that a web developer wouldn't be concerned with on a day to day basis. Only to find that when you start working there, the code base is utter st and the quality of everyone's work is even worse.

Statements like this:

said:

A passion for software development. It’s not just your career, it’s also your hobby. You’re constantly striving to learn new things and improve. You follow industry news, regularly tinker with new technologies, and read books and blogs to keep your skills current.

Wouldn't it be better for members of your team to spend their evenings and weekends on non-work related activities so they can come into work refreshed and not get burned out? I guess that's why the above JD has been landing in my inbox every week since December last year.

[alorotom]

InitialDave said:

xx99xx said:

'£competitive'

Oh, that one's easy, just assume it won't be.

Learnt this recently. Applied for a pretty good sounding director role with a local mental health organisation - spoke with the named COO and HR bod about it and was assured the salary was very competitive against NHS and private sector competitors.

Was offered a first interview (post initial screen) and I advised I would need to know salary banding before I would proceed. They went away and called me back a couple of days later, for reference directors in mental health commonly are NHS Band 9 (£92k-ish start point), this “opportunity” was being offered out at £40-45k. They were aggrieved that I bowed out and wished them well with their recruitment.

[Munter]

dibblecorse said:

Munter said:

I assume okgo you work in recruitment.

It's not working. Rather than try and force everybody to try an understand a concept from your point of view. How about, you view it from the view of the people trying to interact with you. Because what happens at the moment is people just skip those job adverts. Then clients miss out on seeing all the potential candidates.

Or you ps off everybody who did apply, before they interact with the company. Great first impression.

But the people skipping those ads obviously don't understand the market for which they are written, find me a cloud architect or a cybersecurity consultant that doesn't know their value within c10%, they can also read and understand what a role is / isn't looking for and work out its relevance from an alignment perspective first, is the work interesting, is the employer interesting, is it the right degree of customer interaction / hands on tech etc etc etc ....

The right people don't need to see a salary, they know the value of these roles and their own.

As I have said, very occasionally there is a disconnect, sometimes the potential employer gets bad market data and budgets badly or the candidate has a massively skewed opinion of their value but thats less than 3% of the time.

Also this is all concentrated on the pro-active candidate, they only make up c30% of all the hires made, the general industry norm in tech is 30% Applications, 25% Referrals from existing staff, 35% Proactive sourcing of passive candidates either directly or via 3rd party agencies, the last 15% are filled by internal motions and promotions etc.

Thats how jobs get filled.

It might be different for some roles. The ones I applied for knowing my worth, that didn't have a salary listed. Pay about a quarter of what I'd expect. Virtually identical job descriptions to jobs I was right for. Some paying more than I'm worth and definitely "danger money" as well. But the vast majority of the roles without a salary listed were trying to take the piss. So eventually you just start skipping them, it's not worth the bother.

[lyonspride]

Evanivitch said:

Crudeoink said:

Searching for any engineering role is a nightmare, invariably returns 10,000 results from the likes of Subway refer to a sandwich maker as something along the lines of "Sandwich Construction Engineer". Even more frustration when looking for a systems engineering role because almost any job spec even remotely technical has the word System in. Then the third wave of BS is filtering all the companies that don't understand the difference between a system engineer and a systemS engineer.

I know this pain.

Yeah, but even the sandwich engineer role will have a degree in any subject as a minimum primary requirement.

[Evanivitch]

lyonspride said:

Yeah, but even the sandwich engineer role will have a degree in any subject as a minimum primary requirement.

The blatant abuse of the terms technician and engineer in the UK is beyond all hope now.

I'm just waiting for Nail-Care Design Authority and Domestic Heating Chief Engineer to be stuck on the front of a shop and transit van respectively.

[APontus]

lyonspride said:

Yeah, but even the sandwich engineer role will have a degree in any subject as a minimum primary requirement.

I used to be a recruiter to the sandwich industry, very fulfilling.

[dibblecorse]

Munter said:

It might be different for some roles. The ones I applied for knowing my worth, that didn't have a salary listed. Pay about a quarter of what I'd expect. Virtually identical job descriptions to jobs I was right for. Some paying more than I'm worth and definitely "danger money" as well. But the vast majority of the roles without a salary listed were trying to take the piss. So eventually you just start skipping them, it's not worth the bother.

That I suspect is an industry thing, and I know it goes on in certain sectors.

[APontus]

Why dont jobs listed on LinkedIn have salaries (or am I just not seeing them?)?

[anxious_ant]

APontus said:

Why dont jobs listed on LinkedIn have salaries (or am I just not seeing them?)?

Most jobs won’t list salaries, I suppose due to competitors using this information. Most jobs in LinkedIn are also posted by recruitment agencies so would want to keep this confidential.

If I apply direct I usually get salary information. Recruiters also provide this if you get in touch, but I wouldn’t really trust them.
I had cases where variance is over £10k.

[dibblecorse]

anxious_ant said:

Most jobs won’t list salaries, I suppose due to competitors using this information. Most jobs in LinkedIn are also posted by recruitment agencies so would want to keep this confidential.

If I apply direct I usually get salary information. Recruiters also provide this if you get in touch, but I wouldn’t really trust them.
I had cases where variance is over £10k.

Recruitment agents are told by their clients NOT to divulge salary and budgets on job boards, LinkedIn included, they will share that info if selected for pre presentation review.

An agent has no desire or motivation to lowball offers as he is paid a % of the base salary so the higher he can sell his candidate for the better.

Why would an agent try and get you in for 10k less than he knew the client would pay of you were worth it and relevant, the only person he is harming is himself !!!