Employment Review
Discussion
vaud said:
True, but it also consumes management time which is why a few K settlement is cheap.
There is no management time lol, standard template and process for this. Serve the notice (usually with minimum legal notice period, I'd check contract to see if there is a clause for probation period notice) and ensure that all pay owed are processed. They will usually pro-rota any days in lieu or holiday not taken.anxious_ant said:
There is no management time lol, standard template and process for this. Serve the notice (usually with minimum legal noticed period, I'd check contract to see if there is a clause for probation period notice) and ensure that all pay owed are processed. They will usually pro-rota any days in lieu or holiday not taken.
Yup. I have a 1 month notice.deckster said:
They definitely want you gone, and from what you've said it's not a great place to be anyway. If you don't get on with your manager's style to the extent that he is booting you out, then I would get out with as much dignity as you can muster.
Overall it's a s
tty situation but perhaps take it as an opportunity to reflect on what you want to do next. Personally I'd be asking them for three months pay to walk out of that meeting with employment terminated by mutual agreement, and a neutral reference as previously stated. A bit of breathing space will probably do you the world of good in any case.
This. Absolutely this.Overall it's a s
tty situation but perhaps take it as an opportunity to reflect on what you want to do next. Personally I'd be asking them for three months pay to walk out of that meeting with employment terminated by mutual agreement, and a neutral reference as previously stated. A bit of breathing space will probably do you the world of good in any case.They want you out of there and they have complied a shopping list of accusations to make sure it happens.
After the meeting they will be ‘performance reviewing’ the living daylights out of you on a regular basis to ‘ensure you improve’ but really they will just be doing it to tick boxes and get enough evidence of poor performance to send you packing, and it will be about as much fun as going to the dentist.
If it was me, I would start looking for a new job right now, and I would go into the meeting, listen to what they had to say, and then tell them I was leaving their employment in 3 months time. I would tell them it was up to them as to whether they want me to leave now with 3 months pay (as Deckster suggest) or they could leave me alone to carry on working for 3 months until I left. Their choice.
By the time 3 months has passed, you will have found a new job.
s
t happens. Put it behind you. I wouldn’t want to stay working at a company after they made it clear they weren’t impressed and wanted me gone.Lord Marylebone said:
I would tell them it was up to them as to whether they want me to leave now with 3 months pay (as Deckster suggest) or they could leave me alone to carry on working for 3 months until I left. Their choice.
Why would they pay him 3 months notice? They’re attempting to handle this the correct/legal way and if OP starts throwing ultimatums at them they could use that as a basis to terminate immediately and pay his months notice and holidays in lieu. Then he’s out of a job straightaway and only 1 month’s pay in his pocket. hulksta said:
Got home and read the letter properly.
- It is a 'formal employment review meeting'. (No reference to any disciplinary or grievance procedure)
- The meeting will be with my Manager with HR present to support and take notes.
Meeting is to discuss performance, attendance and conduct.
Quote: 'It is a formal meeting and may lead to a number of sanctions. One possible outcome is that your contract may be terminated.'
Areas of concern whcih have been discussed informally (my defence in brackets):
- Delays / missing fulfilling basic tasks and agreed commitments
(The main ones they will come at me with I can defend with lack of training. The other one is a bit complicated which is essentially micro management from manager where they had a go at me for failing to provide an updated to them multiple times a day.
With regards to my actual role, I have many examples of good work to provide including delivering of a multi site project on time.
One task was due during when I had Covid)
- Lack of communication to key stakeholders including line manager
(Again, this is related to the above micro management issue, plus I don't report to anyone else.)
- Lack fulfilling my main role of hands-on support to operations team
(When I started, manager sent out a memo to operations team that I am here for them and I should be contacted in the event they require support. Not once have I ever been contacted. I am expected to go to them and ask them if they need any support, which is often met with a no.)
- Failure to complete contractual hours and work pattern
(I have been keeping personal timesheets for the last 3/4 months, so this can pretty much be thrown out the window)
- Undesirable feedback from peers
(This is completely new to me, I get on with everyone. However, it may be the other person in my team. I have been keeping my distance from them over the past couple of weeks and is the main person who knows what my work is - slightly complicated, I was told by the manager to report this person or holidays, work plans etc, when I started and I did, however they also were micro managing. Took me a while to see it as I have never really had a formal update with my actual manager in the time I have been there, yet this person has daily 30 minute morning meetings with the manager. Therefore I started to keep my distance over the past 2 weeks, and essentially closed up to them to a certain extent)
Thoughts?
You basically need to go in and give them valid reasons for the above, - It is a 'formal employment review meeting'. (No reference to any disciplinary or grievance procedure)
- The meeting will be with my Manager with HR present to support and take notes.
Meeting is to discuss performance, attendance and conduct.
Quote: 'It is a formal meeting and may lead to a number of sanctions. One possible outcome is that your contract may be terminated.'
Areas of concern whcih have been discussed informally (my defence in brackets):
- Delays / missing fulfilling basic tasks and agreed commitments
(The main ones they will come at me with I can defend with lack of training. The other one is a bit complicated which is essentially micro management from manager where they had a go at me for failing to provide an updated to them multiple times a day.
With regards to my actual role, I have many examples of good work to provide including delivering of a multi site project on time.
One task was due during when I had Covid)
- Lack of communication to key stakeholders including line manager
(Again, this is related to the above micro management issue, plus I don't report to anyone else.)
- Lack fulfilling my main role of hands-on support to operations team
(When I started, manager sent out a memo to operations team that I am here for them and I should be contacted in the event they require support. Not once have I ever been contacted. I am expected to go to them and ask them if they need any support, which is often met with a no.)
- Failure to complete contractual hours and work pattern
(I have been keeping personal timesheets for the last 3/4 months, so this can pretty much be thrown out the window)
- Undesirable feedback from peers
(This is completely new to me, I get on with everyone. However, it may be the other person in my team. I have been keeping my distance from them over the past couple of weeks and is the main person who knows what my work is - slightly complicated, I was told by the manager to report this person or holidays, work plans etc, when I started and I did, however they also were micro managing. Took me a while to see it as I have never really had a formal update with my actual manager in the time I have been there, yet this person has daily 30 minute morning meetings with the manager. Therefore I started to keep my distance over the past 2 weeks, and essentially closed up to them to a certain extent)
Thoughts?
- Delays / missing fulfilling basic tasks and agreed commitments
The main ones they will come at me with I can defend with lack of training. The other one is a bit complicated which is essentially micro management from manager where they had a go at me for failing to provide an updated to them multiple times a day.
Did you raise the issue of training with them? what did you do when someone asked you for the updates, did you start doing them, or just ignore them because you dont want to be micro-managed?
- Lack of communication to key stakeholders including line manager
(Again, this is related to the above micro management issue, plus I don't report to anyone else.?
Were you aware you needed to provide the information to be used to update stakeholder, and if not, when you were made aware, did you then start providing that, or just ignore it because you dont report to anyone else?
- Lack fulfilling my main role of hands-on support to operations team
(When I started, manager sent out a memo to operations team that I am here for them and I should be contacted in the event they require support. Not once have I ever been contacted. I am expected to go to them and ask them if they need any support, which is often met with a no.)
Do you have evidence that you have proactively communicated with them to make sure they dont need support, and that everything it ok? and this could like back to the training thing, if you think its the ops teams responsibility to go to you for help, but you have then expected management to pick up that you need more training, may not be a good thing to bring up.
- Failure to complete contractual hours and work pattern
(I have been keeping personal timesheets for the last 3/4 months, so this can pretty much be thrown out the window)
Do you have actual evidence to show you have completed your contractual hours, evidence of you actually at work, emails being sent throughout your shift, has there been reports that people have been unable to get hold of you when you were meant to be in work, again, this may be related to the above point, that when someone needs support, you were not available to help them.
- Undesirable feedback from peers
(This is completely new to me, I get on with everyone. However, it may be the other person in my team. I have been keeping my distance from them over the past couple of weeks and is the main person who knows what my work is - slightly complicated, I was told by the manager to report this person or holidays, work plans etc, when I started and I did, however they also were micro managing. Took me a while to see it as I have never really had a formal update with my actual manager in the time I have been there, yet this person has daily 30 minute morning meetings with the manager. Therefore I started to keep my distance over the past 2 weeks, and essentially closed up to them to a certain extent)
Again, why have you done this, is it because you dont see them as a manager and therefore you dont feel that you should have to explain yourself to them? if your manager has advised you to report to them, and they have daily meeting with them, this could be a big part of your problem, as updated on your work could have been given during those meetings, the manager would have had info on any issues you were having.
Looks and smells like a disciplinary, at minimum it’s an ass covering exercise, as you are under 2 years they could pretty much dismiss you without this. I’d start looking ASAP.
Go back through emails and meeting notes, have you had any coaching, guidance or feedback? Did you act on it?
The only option open is to say remote working as a new starter hasn’t been helpful, that you are open to any coaching and training and would like to make the role a success for you and the business. That you are regretful to be in situation and remain committed to the role.
Going in and arguing the toss, whilst calling out the guy you’d continue working for will just make it totally untenable.
Go back through emails and meeting notes, have you had any coaching, guidance or feedback? Did you act on it?
The only option open is to say remote working as a new starter hasn’t been helpful, that you are open to any coaching and training and would like to make the role a success for you and the business. That you are regretful to be in situation and remain committed to the role.
Going in and arguing the toss, whilst calling out the guy you’d continue working for will just make it totally untenable.
Lots of great advice already but if you'd like to talk to someone before the meeting - I'm happy to help. I'm a manager and had two similar situations recently. One was a performance issue that couldn't be resolved in a reasonable timeframe through training etc - it resulted in the person being interviewed making a decision to leave. The other was anxiety-driven absences and poor reporting and we are working to turn it around. It can go both ways, generally, but you have to show what steps you will take in the future to get things right, and put effort into following through. Gathering evidence about what happened in the past is counterproductive and usually a waste of time.
timeism0ney said:
Lots of great advice already but if you'd like to talk to someone before the meeting - I'm happy to help. I'm a manager and had two similar situations recently. One was a performance issue that couldn't be resolved in a reasonable timeframe through training etc - it resulted in the person being interviewed making a decision to leave. The other was anxiety-driven absences and poor reporting and we are working to turn it around. It can go both ways, generally, but you have to show what steps you will take in the future to get things right, and put effort into following through. Gathering evidence about what happened in the past is counterproductive and usually a waste of time.
Thank you. I will send you a PM shortly.Edit: I can't send you a PM. How can I get in touch?
hulksta said:
Forgot to add a key point, I am allowed a union rep or collegue.
I am not a member of a union.
Anyone in the North West that is a rep who can help?
I have already sent a request on WRs.
Unions are like insurance, get it when you don't need it for when you do! As per insurance most will not help with existing issues even if you sign up on the spot. Won't hurt to ask, but I think that ship has sailed.I am not a member of a union.
Anyone in the North West that is a rep who can help?
I have already sent a request on WRs.
And to echo other comments, don't go in there looking to defend, they will likely just take view they are right, you are wrong, goodbye. Go in there with the attitude how can we work together to resolve this and move forward. Apologise for not understanding your manager's requirements (even if they are the problem you won't win), look for clarification. It sounds like you have a problem being managed, both by manager and someone who you may not formally report to but sounds obvious you've been asked to work under, this is a very common approach with small teams where someone will manage newcomers or other staff without being a full supervisor. You have no pushback against that.
Good luck!
Edited by ozzuk on Thursday 17th June 14:59
ozzuk said:
Unions are like insurance, get it when you don't need it for when you do! As per insurance most will not help with existing issues even if you sign up on the spot. Won't hurt to ask, but I think that ship has sailed.
And to echo other comments, don't go in there looking to defend, they will likely just take view they are right, you are wrong, goodbye. Go in there with the attitude how can we work together to resolve this and move forward. Apologise for not understanding your manager's requirements (even if they are the problem you won't win), look for clarification. It sounds like you have a problem being managed, both by manager and someone who you may not formally report to but sounds obvious you've been asked to work under, this is a very common approach with small teams where someone will manage newcomers or other staff without being a full supervisor. You have no pushback against that.
Good luck!
That is my plan. How can I change to show what the manager wants.And to echo other comments, don't go in there looking to defend, they will likely just take view they are right, you are wrong, goodbye. Go in there with the attitude how can we work together to resolve this and move forward. Apologise for not understanding your manager's requirements (even if they are the problem you won't win), look for clarification. It sounds like you have a problem being managed, both by manager and someone who you may not formally report to but sounds obvious you've been asked to work under, this is a very common approach with small teams where someone will manage newcomers or other staff without being a full supervisor. You have no pushback against that.
Good luck!
Edited by ozzuk on Thursday 17th June 14:59
I also need a boat load of clarity.
hulksta said:
That is my plan. How can I change to show what the manager wants.
I also need a boat load of clarity.
You do what you feel is right, but the one thing I want to stress is don’t worry about it too much.I also need a boat load of clarity.
Without being flippant, I would say that sometimes losing your job or resigning from somewhere can be the best thing that happens to you. You just won’t realise that until it happens.
It really isn’t the end of the world.
Lord Marylebone said:
You do what you feel is right, but the one thing I want to stress is don’t worry about it too much.
Without being flippant, I would say that sometimes losing your job or resigning from somewhere can be the best thing that happens to you. You just won’t realise that until it happens.
It really isn’t the end of the world.
This is very sensible. Without being flippant, I would say that sometimes losing your job or resigning from somewhere can be the best thing that happens to you. You just won’t realise that until it happens.
It really isn’t the end of the world.
hulksta said:
Will it be pointless putting together a whole load of things (emails, work I have done and delivered) be of any use?
Challenge the manager in front of HR in the meeting to show that they are exaggarating?
However will challenging then impact on me getting a neutral reference?
The manager won't be writing the reference.Challenge the manager in front of HR in the meeting to show that they are exaggarating?
However will challenging then impact on me getting a neutral reference?
timeism0ney said:
How did it go, op?
As one would expect. Manager skirted any questions on what training provision and tools had had been provided to me to carry out my role. (Essentially an expert on twisting everything to make it solely all my fault. Not something only I have picked up, all other people under the manager have recognised it)Anyways, I purposefully make this post 2 days into my new role which I was offered less than a week after I left on a much better salary. WFH for now and a hybrid format in the future once things open up.
hulksta said:
timeism0ney said:
How did it go, op?
As one would expect. Manager skirted any questions on what training provision and tools had had been provided to me to carry out my role. (Essentially an expert on twisting everything to make it solely all my fault. Not something only I have picked up, all other people under the manager have recognised it)Anyways, I purposefully make this post 2 days into my new role which I was offered less than a week after I left on a much better salary. WFH for now and a hybrid format in the future once things open up.
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