jacking in an IT career...

[Olivera]

isv said:

My view now is that there are too many people in IT who are simply unsuited to the role and the relentless demands of the industry. To be successful you must reinvent yourself constantly and demonstrate real value. Most importantly, anyone without modern hands-on tech skills is increasingly ineffective and lacks credibility.

There is an over abundance of dinosaurs who have slipped behind, have not kept up, and are embarrassing in front of clients. Yet they still expect to earn a mega salary…

I must educate and reskill myself constantly… and offer the same to my entire dept (all of whom earn £100k++) yet amazing to see some people refuse to reskill even when offered for free!

The resistance to change I detect from some in this thread mirrors what I see on a daily basis… it is not an industry for individuals who cannot put in the hard yards to keep one step in front…

I've never read nor studied anything IT related outside of work time for probably 20 years - I prefer to learn on the job and wing it

There's too many other interesting things in life to also be spending every hour outside of work coding away. These people do exist and I find them abject sad sacks, yet this kind of behaviour is often encouraged in IT.

[Deep Thought]

Olivera said:

isv said:

My view now is that there are too many people in IT who are simply unsuited to the role and the relentless demands of the industry. To be successful you must reinvent yourself constantly and demonstrate real value. Most importantly, anyone without modern hands-on tech skills is increasingly ineffective and lacks credibility.

There is an over abundance of dinosaurs who have slipped behind, have not kept up, and are embarrassing in front of clients. Yet they still expect to earn a mega salary…

I must educate and reskill myself constantly… and offer the same to my entire dept (all of whom earn £100k++) yet amazing to see some people refuse to reskill even when offered for free!

The resistance to change I detect from some in this thread mirrors what I see on a daily basis… it is not an industry for individuals who cannot put in the hard yards to keep one step in front…

I've never read nor studied anything IT related outside of work time for probably 20 years - I prefer to learn on the job and wing it

There's too many other interesting things in life to also be spending every hour outside of work coding away. These people do exist and I find them abject sad sacks, yet this kind of behaviour is often encouraged in IT.

+1

I've been lucky enough to have had the right skills to get me in to a role, then learn on the job as the role evolves - which then leads me in to the next role

Really not in to studying and learning outside of work, but there are a certain type who chose to / have to.

[768]

isv said:

Interesting thread.. I am approaching 60 and have spent my entire career in IT. Started as x86 assembly language dev and now CTO for a global tech leader.

My view now is that there are too many people in IT who are simply unsuited to the role and the relentless demands of the industry. To be successful you must reinvent yourself constantly and demonstrate real value. Most importantly, anyone without modern hands-on tech skills is increasingly ineffective and lacks credibility.

There is an over abundance of dinosaurs who have slipped behind, have not kept up, and are embarrassing in front of clients. Yet they still expect to earn a mega salary…

I must educate and reskill myself constantly… and offer the same to my entire dept (all of whom earn £100k++) yet amazing to see some people refuse to reskill even when offered for free!

The resistance to change I detect from some in this thread mirrors what I see on a daily basis… it is not an industry for individuals who cannot put in the hard yards to keep one step in front…

To the people on here who are enjoying IT and continue to find it invigorating after a long career I salute you!

Couldn't be further wide of the mark from what I've seen.

It's those who shoulder the biggest burden of making a project a success that I see getting out. The experienced staff who cover everything old and new, but who know which tool is right for which job and are left to prove it when others are unable to.

Leaving behind the person who spends four days a week organising fun Friday, budgeted for on project work but contributing nothing. Often found telling those up the management chain that they're still technical while everyone down the management chain tries not to roll their eyes. That is, when they're not away on a training course to learn about a tool they'll never use that others picked up on the job.

£100k++ doesn't look like much when you're doing the work of multiple others on £50k as well as your own. The spread of technical salaries seen in the US doesn't seem well matched over here and I think that plays a part in retention of key individuals.

I see it so often I wish there was a way to short companies that aren't listed.

Edited by 768 on Saturday 10th July 15:56

[Blown2CV]

i think anyone that says to themselves that some new tech development is just the same as a previous thing from decades ago, and it didn't work then and it won't work now... they prob are showing signs that they need to jack the profession in. I feel pretty cynical but i am not sure i have managed to reach that point of persistent cynicism about everything that comes along. It's rarely the tech that annoys me anyway, it's the people and the organisations.

[Jaguar99]

Blown2CV said:

i think anyone that says to themselves that some new tech development is just the same as a previous thing from decades ago, and it didn't work then and it won't work now... they prob are showing signs that they need to jack the profession in. I feel pretty cynical but i am not sure i have managed to reach that point of persistent cynicism about everything that comes along. It's rarely the tech that annoys me anyway, it's the people and the organisations.

Agreed. Apart from Windows Updates (eg server with “Getting Windows ready” for two hours this morning during a simple reboot) the tech and keeping up with what’s what isn’t the issue

The change of attitude towards IT by both management (budget cutting and outsourcing to the detriment of service) and by users who have more tech than they used to meaning they now “know” how everything in IT works questioning everything you do are the big issues

[lyonspride]

Jaguar99 said:

Blown2CV said:

i think anyone that says to themselves that some new tech development is just the same as a previous thing from decades ago, and it didn't work then and it won't work now... they prob are showing signs that they need to jack the profession in. I feel pretty cynical but i am not sure i have managed to reach that point of persistent cynicism about everything that comes along. It's rarely the tech that annoys me anyway, it's the people and the organisations.

Agreed. Apart from Windows Updates (eg server with “Getting Windows ready” for two hours this morning during a simple reboot) the tech and keeping up with what’s what isn’t the issue

The change of attitude towards IT by both management (budget cutting and outsourcing to the detriment of service) and by users who have more tech than they used to meaning they now “know” how everything in IT works questioning everything you do are the big issues

Problem is there are A LOT of IT people who have a degree in computer science but don't actually know what they're doing.....

In my last workplace they were trying to run a remote audit on all the machines, to figure out whats installed etc, but couldn't do it because my machine and someone else's had lost their administrative shares (C$). I was sat next to the highly paid manager from our external IT company, whilst he was Googling how to set up administrative shares, I mean seriously shouldn't this guy know how to use the "net share" command? I'd expect any IT guy to know command prompt and ALL the common commands like they were second nature........

[fourstardan]

lyonspride said:

Problem is there are A LOT of IT people who have a degree in computer science but don't actually know what they're doing.....

In my last workplace they were trying to run a remote audit on all the machines, to figure out whats installed etc, but couldn't do it because my machine and someone else's had lost their administrative shares (C$). I was sat next to the highly paid manager from our external IT company, whilst he was Googling how to set up administrative shares, I mean seriously shouldn't this guy know how to use the "net share" command? I'd expect any IT guy to know command prompt and ALL the common commands like they were second nature........

This is the problem I'm finding....trouble is how do we know they really are highly paid.

I just think a lot of us are hitting a cycle of cheap slave labour coming through thats made to feel better by ole definition.

Its great if you can mentally stick at it.

[Deep Thought]

fourstardan said:

lyonspride said:

Problem is there are A LOT of IT people who have a degree in computer science but don't actually know what they're doing.....

In my last workplace they were trying to run a remote audit on all the machines, to figure out whats installed etc, but couldn't do it because my machine and someone else's had lost their administrative shares (C$). I was sat next to the highly paid manager from our external IT company, whilst he was Googling how to set up administrative shares, I mean seriously shouldn't this guy know how to use the "net share" command? I'd expect any IT guy to know command prompt and ALL the common commands like they were second nature........

This is the problem I'm finding....trouble is how do we know they really are highly paid.

I just think a lot of us are hitting a cycle of cheap slave labour coming through thats made to feel better by ole definition.

Its great if you can mentally stick at it.

Doesnt even have to be cheap slave labour. A lot of people work for third party companies, who charge other companies a serious amount for their services. Someone being charged out at £800 to £1,000 a day will be on a civil enough wage, but not necessarily in the band of "highly paid".

[Blown2CV]

lyonspride said:

Jaguar99 said:

Blown2CV said:

i think anyone that says to themselves that some new tech development is just the same as a previous thing from decades ago, and it didn't work then and it won't work now... they prob are showing signs that they need to jack the profession in. I feel pretty cynical but i am not sure i have managed to reach that point of persistent cynicism about everything that comes along. It's rarely the tech that annoys me anyway, it's the people and the organisations.

Agreed. Apart from Windows Updates (eg server with “Getting Windows ready” for two hours this morning during a simple reboot) the tech and keeping up with what’s what isn’t the issue

The change of attitude towards IT by both management (budget cutting and outsourcing to the detriment of service) and by users who have more tech than they used to meaning they now “know” how everything in IT works questioning everything you do are the big issues

Problem is there are A LOT of IT people who have a degree in computer science but don't actually know what they're doing.....

In my last workplace they were trying to run a remote audit on all the machines, to figure out whats installed etc, but couldn't do it because my machine and someone else's had lost their administrative shares (C$). I was sat next to the highly paid manager from our external IT company, whilst he was Googling how to set up administrative shares, I mean seriously shouldn't this guy know how to use the "net share" command? I'd expect any IT guy to know command prompt and ALL the common commands like they were second nature........

to be honest i've been away from that sort of thing for so long that i'd have to probably google it too.

[omniflow]

I've not been following all of the detail on this thread - but I definitely get the overall concept.

What has worked for me is a complete change of everything that isn't IT. So, keep the IT bit and the core skills that you have, but apply them in a total different context. I used to work in Financial Services, as an employee of the end user. Now I'm working as a contractor for a consultancy and being sold into a healthcare company, working on building a new facility. The scope of the stuff I'm responsible for is well within my comfort zone, everything else is pretty much outside it, and very very interesting. I know that I can do what I'm being paid to do, and I'm learning alot at the same time. It also helps that the people are really nice.

[lyonspride]

Blown2CV said:

lyonspride said:

Jaguar99 said:

Blown2CV said:

i think anyone that says to themselves that some new tech development is just the same as a previous thing from decades ago, and it didn't work then and it won't work now... they prob are showing signs that they need to jack the profession in. I feel pretty cynical but i am not sure i have managed to reach that point of persistent cynicism about everything that comes along. It's rarely the tech that annoys me anyway, it's the people and the organisations.

Agreed. Apart from Windows Updates (eg server with “Getting Windows ready” for two hours this morning during a simple reboot) the tech and keeping up with what’s what isn’t the issue

The change of attitude towards IT by both management (budget cutting and outsourcing to the detriment of service) and by users who have more tech than they used to meaning they now “know” how everything in IT works questioning everything you do are the big issues

Problem is there are A LOT of IT people who have a degree in computer science but don't actually know what they're doing.....

In my last workplace they were trying to run a remote audit on all the machines, to figure out whats installed etc, but couldn't do it because my machine and someone else's had lost their administrative shares (C$). I was sat next to the highly paid manager from our external IT company, whilst he was Googling how to set up administrative shares, I mean seriously shouldn't this guy know how to use the "net share" command? I'd expect any IT guy to know command prompt and ALL the common commands like they were second nature........

to be honest i've been away from that sort of thing for so long that i'd have to probably google it too.

I feel like many have moved to software solutions that do it for them, it's another thing I come across a lot, people messing about with expensive software that simply acts as a fluffy bunny interface for native windows features.

[Blown2CV]

lyonspride said:

Blown2CV said:

lyonspride said:

Jaguar99 said:

Blown2CV said:

i think anyone that says to themselves that some new tech development is just the same as a previous thing from decades ago, and it didn't work then and it won't work now... they prob are showing signs that they need to jack the profession in. I feel pretty cynical but i am not sure i have managed to reach that point of persistent cynicism about everything that comes along. It's rarely the tech that annoys me anyway, it's the people and the organisations.

Agreed. Apart from Windows Updates (eg server with “Getting Windows ready” for two hours this morning during a simple reboot) the tech and keeping up with what’s what isn’t the issue

The change of attitude towards IT by both management (budget cutting and outsourcing to the detriment of service) and by users who have more tech than they used to meaning they now “know” how everything in IT works questioning everything you do are the big issues

Problem is there are A LOT of IT people who have a degree in computer science but don't actually know what they're doing.....

In my last workplace they were trying to run a remote audit on all the machines, to figure out whats installed etc, but couldn't do it because my machine and someone else's had lost their administrative shares (C$). I was sat next to the highly paid manager from our external IT company, whilst he was Googling how to set up administrative shares, I mean seriously shouldn't this guy know how to use the "net share" command? I'd expect any IT guy to know command prompt and ALL the common commands like they were second nature........

to be honest i've been away from that sort of thing for so long that i'd have to probably google it too.

I feel like many have moved to software solutions that do it for them, it's another thing I come across a lot, people messing about with expensive software that simply acts as a fluffy bunny interface for native windows features.

or they have a wee man that does it.

[JaredVannett]

This morning I received another recruiter email for a software developer as usual.

"I am working with an amazing company to help them double in size over the next 18 months..."

yawn... because they all read like that.


As usual, the list of required skills is a splatterfest of diarrhea. Buzzwords from all facets of the IT space, programming languages, database systems, IT infrastructure and "multiple" cloud infrastructure experience required, oh and last but certainly not least.....React, must be able to do React!

And now it comes to the perks, "games consoles/snooker table, tech conferences (if beneficial to the company) etc".

In all the places I've worked so far, those last two perks have been nothing but a mirage. Do I want to play on the games console? not really but I noticed that everyone else doesn't play on them either, and sometimes I wonder it's because of the fear of judgement, appearing "not working hard enough" - despite playing in your lunch break?

But the worst one for me (based on my current experience) is the tech conferences perk. Every place I've worked in mentioned it on the job ad, but when the time comes to attend a conference of your choosing it's never the "right" time, "we have too much work on etc, maybe another time". There's probably a stigma that the company thinks it's losing you for a day with no value to be gained. The only way to go is to take a holiday.


Genuine question, what has been your experience with these types of perks?

[Blown2CV]

the requirement to write a business case for attendance is enough to put most people off.

[768]

I've worked with a company that only let the staff go if they were presenting and the company logo was put up everywhere. Hardly anyone went to one. But personally, I wouldn't have seen it as much of a perk to go anyway.

That said, there was a guy running a programming conference on a Greek island that did seem a better idea than most.

[Olivera]

JaredVannett said:

Genuine question, what has been your experience with these types of perks?

Absolute st. It's the bottom line of £££ that primarily matters, after all I wouldn't be doing it otherwise.

[PurpleTurtle]

Blown2CV said:

the big 4 employ the cleverest graduates so they can then pass them off as consultants on 2k a day after a bit of training. Because they are clever good at bullstting and moving on before they get found out they can kind of get by on having no experience. The lesser consultancies get the cheapest possible people from the cheapest parts of the world, whether they are clever or not really, and whilst they bill out at far less money than the big 4, the cost almost nothing, and so coast on the incredible margins for a while, often reliant on one experienced person in a team covering for a ton of dolts and noobs. Both business models appear to rely upon just seeing how long you can get away with it for, until you get booted out. The number of times I have seen big 4 get booted en masse it is incredible.

FTFY.

I shouldn't really complain, I got my foot in the door of IT by getting on a graduate scheme sponsored by an in-house IT department, to fix the mess left behind by a load of Andersen 'consultants' who were really graduates with 6 months' experience but had the unwavering confidence that the best public schools gives you, even if you don't know your arse from your elbow.

[98elise]

WhiskyDisco said:

spanky3 said:

On topic - 25 years in IT, now a bored programme manager.

Off topic - What's all this not understanding what MVP means? Minimum Viable Product has nothing to do with cutting corners on quality, else it wouldn't be a viable product.

MVP is about delivering just enough functionality to get a viable (usable) product out there. Example - Your customer needs to export documents. Fine. But do they really need to export in 8 different formats on day one? Instead we can deliver that in our v2, or v3 or whatever drop. If your company is delivering all the functionality but none of the QA and calling that an MVP then no wonder you're all fed up.

My problem with MVP is all about the non-functional aspects. A current project is about serving data via an API. The data is "staged" in a structure that makes it optimised for inserts/updates/deletes, but is not in a format that is ideal for reading (the service is the result of several joins, a few of which are recursive). I pointed out the need to transform the data from one format to the other BEFORE the data needs to be served. I even provided a table to MOVE the data to (columns: key + json). Triggers and event tables were left unused.

What happened? Well, the SQL that I provided for querying the underlying data for the ETL, was actually used to present the data at the query time. Tested for one call it worked OK. Then they rolled it out and tried calling multiple times concurrently. Not so good.

So functionally it's fine, but non-functionally it's a pile of ****

Customer deadlines are cited, but saving money by not doing the extra work to cache the data (ETL, listening for events) is the main thing.

Edited by WhiskyDisco on Tuesday 6th July 10:43

Meeting the non functional spec should be part of the MVP.

You can't have a viable system thats partly secure, or with limited performance etc.

Glad I'm out of IT and retired now

[Blown2CV]

PurpleTurtle said:

Blown2CV said:

the big 4 employ the cleverest graduates so they can then pass them off as consultants on 2k a day after a bit of training. Because they are clever good at bullstting and moving on before they get found out they can kind of get by on having no experience. The lesser consultancies get the cheapest possible people from the cheapest parts of the world, whether they are clever or not really, and whilst they bill out at far less money than the big 4, the cost almost nothing, and so coast on the incredible margins for a while, often reliant on one experienced person in a team covering for a ton of dolts and noobs. Both business models appear to rely upon just seeing how long you can get away with it for, until you get booted out. The number of times I have seen big 4 get booted en masse it is incredible.

FTFY.

I shouldn't really complain, I got my foot in the door of IT by getting on a graduate scheme sponsored by an in-house IT department, to fix the mess left behind by a load of Andersen 'consultants' who were really graduates with 6 months' experience but had the unwavering confidence that the best public schools gives you, even if you don't know your arse from your elbow.

yea we're saying the same thing i think. A team of grads cannot deliver a transformation programme. It's like saying you can get toddlers to drive a car providing you have enough of them and there is an adult in the back seat advising them what to do.

[mikees]

Blown2CV said:

PurpleTurtle said:

Blown2CV said:

the big 4 employ the cleverest graduates so they can then pass them off as consultants on 2k a day after a bit of training. Because they are clever good at bullstting and moving on before they get found out they can kind of get by on having no experience. The lesser consultancies get the cheapest possible people from the cheapest parts of the world, whether they are clever or not really, and whilst they bill out at far less money than the big 4, the cost almost nothing, and so coast on the incredible margins for a while, often reliant on one experienced person in a team covering for a ton of dolts and noobs. Both business models appear to rely upon just seeing how long you can get away with it for, until you get booted out. The number of times I have seen big 4 get booted en masse it is incredible.

FTFY.

I shouldn't really complain, I got my foot in the door of IT by getting on a graduate scheme sponsored by an in-house IT department, to fix the mess left behind by a load of Andersen 'consultants' who were really graduates with 6 months' experience but had the unwavering confidence that the best public schools gives you, even if you don't know your arse from your elbow.

yea we're saying the same thing i think. A team of grads cannot deliver a transformation programme. It's like saying you can get toddlers to drive a car providing you have enough of them and there is an adult in the back seat advising them what to do.

Brilliant analogy B2CV.