Is this employer request unreasonable?
Discussion
Super Sonic said:
Exactly this. How long before you're expected to do this every day. Talk to HR.
I would speak the boss first, does she have it writing that is mandatory and refusal is not an option?Making allegations to HR above the boss is always perilous, at least have it out with him first.
I had a disagreement with a boss a couple of years back who called me to discuss urgent work while I was off ill with CV19! I said discussing my role, the clients work or any changes was not appropriate as he agreed I sounded rather unwell. He said he had to speak to me as the client wanted info, I refused and ended the call after some debate.
I sent him an email with some of the info and complaining (he was young American- Client Manager) stating it was not appropriate to call with demanded work or discussing work past how and am I or when I intended to return. He replied saying he had no choice and I had not helped him and he was disappointed. I forward his email with a complaint to HR.
My bum was covered and HR tried to cover theirs, the client made changes anyway, I ended up being moved I was investigated and cleared.
However he then blocked any pay rise 3 months later!!!!
Took over 12 months to get it all sorted.
surveyor said:
I think grumpy PH director type blokes would have less difficulty standing their position than a 18 year old girl. I know that my daughter would be unhappy, but would probably take some encouragement to actually stand her ground.
This indeed is the issue. She is going to end up doing it. said:
I was offered one pay rise the following year 3% plus a small bonus performance bonus as my new manager and client sung my praises and I got two more consultants placed off the back of my performance.
Just because the boss is wrong and your right, doesn't mean your career won't be impacted.
Some more context would be handy here, depending on the type of phone shop there are different avenues to take.
Big name high street chain? Call head office and complain or whistleblow. This is usually handled in confidence by a large off site HR team, and the company should have a robust process in place.
Indy / back street? I found myself in a similar situation as a student working as technician for a phone shop, where a few "could you just go pick up / deliver this part to shop X" turned into "weekly collection of large box of parts". Now obviously its different if you've not been there a while. But I asked my boss if I can take his Ford S-MAX instead of my 3 door micra to do these "runs". His response was of course, "No, you're not insured", to which I said "neither am I" and gave a short explanation of the risks and lack of business cover.
A calm discussion soon made him see sense, as I am sure would be the same for any other manager/owner/HR department.
Big name high street chain? Call head office and complain or whistleblow. This is usually handled in confidence by a large off site HR team, and the company should have a robust process in place.
Indy / back street? I found myself in a similar situation as a student working as technician for a phone shop, where a few "could you just go pick up / deliver this part to shop X" turned into "weekly collection of large box of parts". Now obviously its different if you've not been there a while. But I asked my boss if I can take his Ford S-MAX instead of my 3 door micra to do these "runs". His response was of course, "No, you're not insured", to which I said "neither am I" and gave a short explanation of the risks and lack of business cover.
A calm discussion soon made him see sense, as I am sure would be the same for any other manager/owner/HR department.
surveyor_101 said:
Just because the boss is wrong and your right, doesn't mean your career won't be impacted.
or say nothing and be bullied for how long ? 6 months into a mobile phone store job , maybe its a good lesson learned if they get ridif they're like that now move on and find a better job
Some Gump said:
Making the request - reasonable.
Saying "it's not optional" - unreasonable.
This. The next step is not to go to HR / look for another job / lie about the car etc. The next step is to simply say to the manager that she is not comfortable picking up a complete stranger and see how they respond. If they again insist it’s compulsory then she should refuse and then and only then would you take further steps. Even then it’s usually prudent to speak to your managers manager before you go to HR.Saying "it's not optional" - unreasonable.
So many employment advice questions on here are responded to with statements that would just escalate the situation. Just act like an adult and politely decline with a specific reason and keep calm until you see the managers next move. That advice applies whether you are 18 or 65 it doesn’t matter. There really is no need to be doing anything else at this point.
If the manager still says compulsory speak to their manager and see if it can be resolved. If your insist too which is highly unlikely then speak to HR.
surveyor_101 said:
Super Sonic said:
Exactly this. How long before you're expected to do this every day. Talk to HR.
I would speak the boss first, does she have it writing that is mandatory and refusal is not an option?Making allegations to HR above the boss is always perilous, at least have it out with him first.
I had a disagreement with a boss a couple of years back who called me to discuss urgent work while I was off ill with CV19! I said discussing my role, the clients work or any changes was not appropriate as he agreed I sounded rather unwell. He said he had to speak to me as the client wanted info, I refused and ended the call after some debate.
I sent him an email with some of the info and complaining (he was young American- Client Manager) stating it was not appropriate to call with demanded work or discussing work past how and am I or when I intended to return. He replied saying he had no choice and I had not helped him and he was disappointed. I forward his email with a complaint to HR.
My bum was covered and HR tried to cover theirs, the client made changes anyway, I ended up being moved I was investigated and cleared.
However he then blocked any pay rise 3 months later!!!!
Took over 12 months to get it all sorted.
I kept working when I had covid as I’m wfh anyway and there was no one to cover the projects I was managing.
There’s a vast gap between the expectation of accountability from a middle aged person in a professional role and a teenager in their first ft job.
Well she ended up picking him up this morning.
She tried to discuss it with her boss many times and asked her to make the request in writing explaining that she had no option. Her boss refused to do this, told her she was being ridiculous and she was helping out her colleague and the company. When she push her boss further, she got angry, made comments about not signing off her expenses etc.
She did this in front of other staff members, who confirmed they had heard her insist that she must do this. I am going to suggest to her that she writes an email to the HR department (it's a large network operator) that explains the position she was put in and asks if it was reasonable and if she was within her rights to refuse it.
I found it very frustrating talking to her via whatsapp yesterday because she was constantly worried about making her boss angry and didn't want to push it. It's a hard balance to let her make her own mistakes / learn to deal with things like this vs wanting to get involved myself. Despite being her first job and being only 18, she is still an adult and whilst we will of course offer support, she needs to learn how to deal with stuff like this.
She tried to discuss it with her boss many times and asked her to make the request in writing explaining that she had no option. Her boss refused to do this, told her she was being ridiculous and she was helping out her colleague and the company. When she push her boss further, she got angry, made comments about not signing off her expenses etc.
She did this in front of other staff members, who confirmed they had heard her insist that she must do this. I am going to suggest to her that she writes an email to the HR department (it's a large network operator) that explains the position she was put in and asks if it was reasonable and if she was within her rights to refuse it.
I found it very frustrating talking to her via whatsapp yesterday because she was constantly worried about making her boss angry and didn't want to push it. It's a hard balance to let her make her own mistakes / learn to deal with things like this vs wanting to get involved myself. Despite being her first job and being only 18, she is still an adult and whilst we will of course offer support, she needs to learn how to deal with stuff like this.
ZedLeg said:
That’s an entirely different situation. You could’ve easily helped your boss out after unexpectedly being absent.
I kept working when I had covid as I’m wfh anyway and there was no one to cover the projects I was managing.
There’s a vast gap between the expectation of accountability from a middle aged person in a professional role and a teenager in their first ft job.
I was very very ill I had complications with COVID if you not fit to work your not fit to discuss work and do a handover with someone. I provided some info via email.I kept working when I had covid as I’m wfh anyway and there was no one to cover the projects I was managing.
There’s a vast gap between the expectation of accountability from a middle aged person in a professional role and a teenager in their first ft job.
He wanted me to come back to work and or a agree a date when I was very ill, as it was I was another 4 days (2 business) before I felt better and returned. At that time the client wanted a 4 week handover and move me to another role and he said the client wanted me gone!
cashmax said:
Well she ended up picking him up this morning.
She tried to discuss it with her boss many times and asked her to make the request in writing explaining that she had no option. Her boss refused to do this, told her she was being ridiculous and she was helping out her colleague and the company. When she push her boss further, she got angry, made comments about not signing off her expenses etc.
She did this in front of other staff members, who confirmed they had heard her insist that she must do this. I am going to suggest to her that she writes an email to the HR department (it's a large network operator) that explains the position she was put in and asks if it was reasonable and if she was within her rights to refuse it.
I found it very frustrating talking to her via whatsapp yesterday because she was constantly worried about making her boss angry and didn't want to push it. It's a hard balance to let her make her own mistakes / learn to deal with things like this vs wanting to get involved myself. Despite being her first job and being only 18, she is still an adult and whilst we will of course offer support, she needs to learn how to deal with stuff like this.
Its a dangerous precedent, does she have business cover?She tried to discuss it with her boss many times and asked her to make the request in writing explaining that she had no option. Her boss refused to do this, told her she was being ridiculous and she was helping out her colleague and the company. When she push her boss further, she got angry, made comments about not signing off her expenses etc.
She did this in front of other staff members, who confirmed they had heard her insist that she must do this. I am going to suggest to her that she writes an email to the HR department (it's a large network operator) that explains the position she was put in and asks if it was reasonable and if she was within her rights to refuse it.
I found it very frustrating talking to her via whatsapp yesterday because she was constantly worried about making her boss angry and didn't want to push it. It's a hard balance to let her make her own mistakes / learn to deal with things like this vs wanting to get involved myself. Despite being her first job and being only 18, she is still an adult and whilst we will of course offer support, she needs to learn how to deal with stuff like this.
She needs to say she can't going forward if they don't like it look elsewhere lots of work about. It good in a way that you have brought her up to respect her boss alot of young people I come across seem to have been brought up to have zero respect and that there is an excuse for late, unreliable shoddy work patterns.
She is an adult all be a a young without a fully developed mind (25 they say that ends) so you can only offer advice. Seems she is being taken advantage of but she unless she feel she is at risk of harm you can only support her.
Edited by surveyor_101 on Thursday 16th March 09:55
it is interesting that on a forum predominantly populated by males we're pretty much all agreeing that she should have the right to say that she's uncomfortable having a strange bloke in her car - her boss is being totally unreasonable IMO and if I were in her shoes I'd be looking for a new job sharpish.
PH answer would be for her to have a Caterham 7. See if he likes being a passenger in that !
As others have said and with daughters same age and running a business with staff/cars etc.
No its not reasonable to ask her to pick up a staff member on the way to work. If she wanted to be a taxi/uber then she would be -
Is it explicitly in her terms of work to drive other staff members?
As others have said and with daughters same age and running a business with staff/cars etc.
No its not reasonable to ask her to pick up a staff member on the way to work. If she wanted to be a taxi/uber then she would be -
Is it explicitly in her terms of work to drive other staff members?
cashmax said:
Well she ended up picking him up this morning.
She tried to discuss it with her boss many times and asked her to make the request in writing explaining that she had no option. Her boss refused to do this, told her she was being ridiculous and she was helping out her colleague and the company. When she push her boss further, she got angry, made comments about not signing off her expenses etc.
She did this in front of other staff members, who confirmed they had heard her insist that she must do this. I am going to suggest to her that she writes an email to the HR department (it's a large network operator) that explains the position she was put in and asks if it was reasonable and if she was within her rights to refuse it.
I found it very frustrating talking to her via whatsapp yesterday because she was constantly worried about making her boss angry and didn't want to push it. It's a hard balance to let her make her own mistakes / learn to deal with things like this vs wanting to get involved myself. Despite being her first job and being only 18, she is still an adult and whilst we will of course offer support, she needs to learn how to deal with stuff like this.
That is shocking, especially now it's a large telco - she definitely needs to take this to HR or someone else. I can well imagine being 18 again and being utterly terrified of management. It's good that others were there to hear it - the difficulty will be their willingness to support her if it comes to itShe tried to discuss it with her boss many times and asked her to make the request in writing explaining that she had no option. Her boss refused to do this, told her she was being ridiculous and she was helping out her colleague and the company. When she push her boss further, she got angry, made comments about not signing off her expenses etc.
She did this in front of other staff members, who confirmed they had heard her insist that she must do this. I am going to suggest to her that she writes an email to the HR department (it's a large network operator) that explains the position she was put in and asks if it was reasonable and if she was within her rights to refuse it.
I found it very frustrating talking to her via whatsapp yesterday because she was constantly worried about making her boss angry and didn't want to push it. It's a hard balance to let her make her own mistakes / learn to deal with things like this vs wanting to get involved myself. Despite being her first job and being only 18, she is still an adult and whilst we will of course offer support, she needs to learn how to deal with stuff like this.
It is pure and simple bullying and her company should not tolerate it. It crossed a clear line when the threat of not signing off expenses was mentioned. She needs to get this down on paper / email quickly whilst it's fresh in her mind. She should also name the other colleagues that heard it. The manager should lose their job for bullying behaviour.
Whilst she does need to stand on her own two feet, you're doing the right thing by trying to push and advise her - she trusts you as her parent.
MustangGT said:
Any business use of the car away from her normal place of work would require business use, not just S,D,P and commuting. It is also, as others have said, a safe-guarding issue. No way can she be forced to pick up a colleague to take them to work. It is her decision alone and with no pressure.
You mean 'may' require. It is down to the insurer, for example my partner told them it is not always the same site and they were fine with it. Of course that might change if picking someone up, and will very likely change if going to work, then going somewhere else, but again it's down to the insurer whether they will accept that or insist on the business cover.Muzzer79 said:
DanL said:
cashmax said:
Not sure how I feel about this - When I was running my business I would occasionally make this kind of request, but her manager has said this is "not optional" and she can't say no. Is it acceptable to ask a 18 year old girl to pick up a man she has never met and take him to work with her?
Nope. 1; Business use, insurance not covered.
2; Potential risk to my daughter from some completely unknown bloke.
3; It’s a piss take. She’s not there to offer a free taxi service to all and sundry.
4; Do it once and you’ll be doing it forever.
5; If this bloke can’t make his own way to work under normal circumstances, then why the hell did he take the job?
It would be an absolute 100% NO from me.
If the Manager doesn’t like it, then I wonder what HR stance on this would be?
105.4 said:
As a Father of a teenage daughter, this is where I would be drawing a very firm line in the sand.
1; Business use, insurance not covered.
I agree its not fair, if she has business use and does not receive payment from the passenger then it should be covered1; Business use, insurance not covered.
The below article says the payment element is what in invalidates insurance.
https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/cars/923121/c...
A lot of the posts here are why this country is in such a state. I don't mean the OP's question - just a lot of the responses. We're going to disappear up our own arses if we're not careful. His daughter has occasionally commuted to the other shop before - it's not become a daily thing, there's no need for biz insurance - she's commuting, there's no safeguarding issue - she's giving a colleague an ad-hoc lift. Of course she should agree to the request.
If I ran a biz like this and a new employee, who should actually be showing flexibility and trying to make a good impression, started kicking off as many posters here suggest, showing all the signs of an entitled, woke, gen z'er, she'd be out straightaway. If she said 'of course, but any chance of some petrol money to cover the extra miles' - that's very VERY different.
If I ran a biz like this and a new employee, who should actually be showing flexibility and trying to make a good impression, started kicking off as many posters here suggest, showing all the signs of an entitled, woke, gen z'er, she'd be out straightaway. If she said 'of course, but any chance of some petrol money to cover the extra miles' - that's very VERY different.
Ezra said:
A lot of the posts here are why this country is in such a state. I don't mean the OP's question - just a lot of the responses. We're going to disappear up our own arses if we're not careful. His daughter has occasionally commuted to the other shop before - it's not become a daily thing, there's no need for biz insurance - she's commuting, there's no safeguarding issue - she's giving a colleague an ad-hoc lift. Of course she should agree to the request.
I agree this culture of litigation from the yanks and risk adverse nature sue everyone is killing common sense.However you are on the car insurance side very much mistaken, its pretty standard that commuting is only covered if its one fixed place of work (I don't make these rules). So if she is having to travel to ad hoc other places of work that aren't fixed, YES she is invalidating the commuting element of insurance and need full business class.
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