Is this employer request unreasonable?
Discussion
Ezra said:
A lot of the posts here are why this country is in such a state. I don't mean the OP's question - just a lot of the responses. We're going to disappear up our own arses if we're not careful. His daughter has occasionally commuted to the other shop before - it's not become a daily thing, there's no need for biz insurance - she's commuting, there's no safeguarding issue - she's giving a colleague an ad-hoc lift. Of course she should agree to the request.
If I ran a biz like this and a new employee, who should actually be showing flexibility and trying to make a good impression, started kicking off as many posters here suggest, showing all the signs of an entitled, woke, gen z'er, she'd be out straightaway. If she said 'of course, but any chance of some petrol money to cover the extra miles' - that's very VERY different.
You’re what’s wrong with the working culture imo.If I ran a biz like this and a new employee, who should actually be showing flexibility and trying to make a good impression, started kicking off as many posters here suggest, showing all the signs of an entitled, woke, gen z'er, she'd be out straightaway. If she said 'of course, but any chance of some petrol money to cover the extra miles' - that's very VERY different.
Employees are expected to be infinitely flexible for s
t wages and no actual appreciation from the company.All for the chance of a promotion that’ll oblige you to be more flexible for a slightly less s
t wage.cashmax said:
Well she ended up picking him up this morning.
She tried to discuss it with her boss many times and asked her to make the request in writing explaining that she had no option. Her boss refused to do this, told her she was being ridiculous and she was helping out her colleague and the company. When she push her boss further, she got angry, made comments about not signing off her expenses etc.
She did this in front of other staff members, who confirmed they had heard her insist that she must do this. I am going to suggest to her that she writes an email to the HR department (it's a large network operator) that explains the position she was put in and asks if it was reasonable and if she was within her rights to refuse it.
I found it very frustrating talking to her via whatsapp yesterday because she was constantly worried about making her boss angry and didn't want to push it. It's a hard balance to let her make her own mistakes / learn to deal with things like this vs wanting to get involved myself. Despite being her first job and being only 18, she is still an adult and whilst we will of course offer support, she needs to learn how to deal with stuff like this.
At that point as a dad I'd be off down to the shop and having it out with this gorgon, calmly, in front of witnesses. Your daughter is too young to deal with this. She tried to discuss it with her boss many times and asked her to make the request in writing explaining that she had no option. Her boss refused to do this, told her she was being ridiculous and she was helping out her colleague and the company. When she push her boss further, she got angry, made comments about not signing off her expenses etc.
She did this in front of other staff members, who confirmed they had heard her insist that she must do this. I am going to suggest to her that she writes an email to the HR department (it's a large network operator) that explains the position she was put in and asks if it was reasonable and if she was within her rights to refuse it.
I found it very frustrating talking to her via whatsapp yesterday because she was constantly worried about making her boss angry and didn't want to push it. It's a hard balance to let her make her own mistakes / learn to deal with things like this vs wanting to get involved myself. Despite being her first job and being only 18, she is still an adult and whilst we will of course offer support, she needs to learn how to deal with stuff like this.
Hammersia said:
At that point as a dad I'd be off down to the shop and having it out with this gorgon, calmly, in front of witnesses. Your daughter is too young to deal with this.
yep , dont set her up to be walked over by greasy maggots all her life , if it ends up meaning a new job then it will teach her to stick up for herself for the rest of her working lifeEdited by steveo3002 on Thursday 16th March 12:04
Hammersia said:
At that point as a dad I'd be off down to the shop and having it out with this gorgon, calmly, in front of witnesses. Your daughter is too young to deal with this.
disagee. He is doing the right thing by not getting directly involved. Its part of life learning for the daughter and to have sound advice from her Dad and surrogate Dads on PH is the best thing for her. How she actions those words of wisdom is her choice. ( Ihave 3 daughters also with their own trials and tribulations !)For me asking the question is reasonable but stating it isn’t optional is unreasonable and not something the employer can insist on. Even if they were paying for the travel time I’m not sure they should be stating such things are mandatory. How is the new employee going to get to work usually?
ZedLeg said:
Employees are expected to be infinitely flexible for st wages and no actual appreciation from the company.
All for the chance of a promotion that’ll oblige you to be more flexible for a slightly less st wage.
You make quite a number of assumptions. Who says its st wages and no actual appreciation from the company.All for the chance of a promotion that’ll oblige you to be more flexible for a slightly less s
t wage.t wages and no appreciation? There are those who succeed because they make an effort when they are given opportunities to show a good attitude, and there are those who don't because they have an inflexible bad attitude. As I say....the later is why the UK is in a poor state.Ezra said:
A lot of the posts here are why this country is in such a state. I don't mean the OP's question - just a lot of the responses. We're going to disappear up our own arses if we're not careful. His daughter has occasionally commuted to the other shop before - it's not become a daily thing, there's no need for biz insurance - she's commuting, there's no safeguarding issue - she's giving a colleague an ad-hoc lift. Of course she should agree to the request.
If I ran a biz like this and a new employee, who should actually be showing flexibility and trying to make a good impression, started kicking off as many posters here suggest, showing all the signs of an entitled, woke, gen z'er, she'd be out straightaway. If she said 'of course, but any chance of some petrol money to cover the extra miles' - that's very VERY different.
I’m not sure you are entirely correct on the Insurance angle but whilst I see your point I think it’s more about the manager telling the young lady she had no option other than to agree. If I ran a biz like this and a new employee, who should actually be showing flexibility and trying to make a good impression, started kicking off as many posters here suggest, showing all the signs of an entitled, woke, gen z'er, she'd be out straightaway. If she said 'of course, but any chance of some petrol money to cover the extra miles' - that's very VERY different.
This is just wrong on every level.
Ezra said:
ZedLeg said:
Employees are expected to be infinitely flexible for st wages and no actual appreciation from the company.
All for the chance of a promotion that’ll oblige you to be more flexible for a slightly less st wage.
You make quite a number of assumptions. Who says its st wages and no actual appreciation from the company.All for the chance of a promotion that’ll oblige you to be more flexible for a slightly less s
t wage.t wages and no appreciation? There are those who succeed because they make an effort when they are given opportunities to show a good attitude, and there are those who don't because they have an inflexible bad attitude. As I say....the later is why the UK is in a poor state.As I said earlier in the thread, there's an expectation of a bit of flexibility in professional roles but the OP's daughter isn't getting paid enough to deal with their manager's bulls
t.Hammersia said:
At that point as a dad I'd be off down to the shop and having it out with this gorgon, calmly, in front of witnesses. Your daughter is too young to deal with this.
As much as the manager is wrong to tell the young “ adult “ she has no option other than to pick up the individual , I don’t think your suggestion will do anything to a) retain any relationship with the manager herself , b) do anything to retain the relationship between her and her Dad and most importantly c) doesn’t take into account the fact that at 18 she is an adult and needs to work out her own way of dealing with things - post advice of course !Hammersia said:
At that point as a dad I'd be off down to the shop and having it out with this gorgon, calmly, in front of witnesses. Your daughter is too young to deal with this.
If the manager was female would you still go down there guns blazing??? Also calling them a gorgon!! Edited by surveyor_101 on Thursday 16th March 11:15
I'm sure others have posted a similar comment, My teenage daughter is on an apprenticeship course with a national retailer, she also seems to have a manager who thinks they can tell her what to do at very short notice, cover at other branches (daughter has her own car unlike the other apprentices), change of rota at very short notice sometimes 3 hrs before she's due to start work, been going on for 6 months now and we (mum and dad) finally got involved when she received a letter to attend a disciplinary hearing. I run my own business and my wife works in HR, daughter put in writing to the branch asking for written evidence of discussions that had been previously held about her perceived work performance, incidents the hearing referred to, witnesses who were spoken to, guess what? Nothing at all was replied to apart from am email stating the hearing had been cancelled. Found out afterwards the manager had got rid of at least 4 apprentices within the last 18 months because they weren't liked by her. I feel for teenagers in the workplace there is definitely some bullying going on amongst businesses that have poor management teams running the branches. My biggest concern reading the OP's original post was it starting to sap the enthusiasm for working from his daughter, I saw that in my daughter and am glad we got involved. As for picking up someone she's never met to take them to their new job, I would also say no. My daughters don't stop for random people waiting for a bus? Surely that should have been the manager of the shop she was helping out at to sort!
surveyor_101 said:
They can ask, but not make it a condition of employment.
Problem here is due to under 2 years service, she can politely decline and see if this is to the detriment of her employment as it's quite easy to get rid of her at 6 months.
They absolutely can make it a condition of employment if it's in her contract and it usually will be for large retailers that have multiple stores close by. I can tell you from experience that the clause will specify the distance/time of travel they consider reasonable. Same as they will probably have something in there along the lines of "from time to time we may ask you to undertake roles outside of your normal work......" Problem here is due to under 2 years service, she can politely decline and see if this is to the detriment of her employment as it's quite easy to get rid of her at 6 months.
You're right with her being less protected with her term in role but that doesn't mean she has to comply with requests outside her terms of employment which are of financial detriment to herself.
This strikes a chord with me, because when I graduated, I worked for a international engineering consultancy.....I was regularly expected to use my own car for trips to site, even when site was a highly undesirable area, where visitors cars were known to be regularly vandalised, damaged etc. The firm couldn't careless where they sent me and it was an expectation, pure and simple. I did this for a good few months and in that period ended up with a sliced open tyre (building site), bumper scuff (parked on a residential street by the site in NW London) and it was keyed in another location. All in 2-3 months, probably only 6 trips in that time.
As a youngster, my insurance was already very expensive and there was no way I was going to a) claim on insurance for those things or indeed b) fork out additional money for "Business Cover". I therefore had to operate at (my) risk and fork out for all of the repairs and in reality, I never got close to recouping the money it basically cost me.
We also had 1 car between my fiancée and I at the time, so use of the vehicle was often massively disruptive to her commute and/or other planned used. (I typically got the train to work).
Anyway, I pushed back on the use of my own car and demanded a hire car for any trips out of the office......Well that went down like a **** sandwich and it was made to be a massive issue by my line manager and office manager at the time. Nonetheless, I stood my ground and the rest was history, but the shear 'expectation' of these companies is a joke - It happens to my wife these days at the school she works at (as a receptionist), running money to the bank, visiting other schools and even delivery lunches and books to kids in the local area (don't ask). It's nothing more than convenience (for them) and money saving on their part, with zero consideration for the bigger picture.
If your daughter was to have an accident whilst 'on business', ignoring the argument with the insurer regarding her movements at the time, she'll have an excess to pay (probably not an insignificant amount for an 18 year old) and then deal with the fall out of the increased premiums for years to come (again, probably not insignificant for a young driver)....not to mention the shear hassle of it all.
Unless you were given a car allowance and/or are doing significant & regular miles, I see this is as a complete no-go for most people really, especially for a youngster/someone on a low wage. Unless it benefits you financially to a sensible level (proportionally covers costs inc. risk element considered), I personally wouldn't ever agree to it. Especially not for 'ad hoc' journeys where you'll never see a pay back on your increase insurance costs.
As the advise you have already been given, this needs to stop. Is it worth jeopardising the job for...? At her age/level, yes probably. She'll find another....
As a youngster, my insurance was already very expensive and there was no way I was going to a) claim on insurance for those things or indeed b) fork out additional money for "Business Cover". I therefore had to operate at (my) risk and fork out for all of the repairs and in reality, I never got close to recouping the money it basically cost me.
We also had 1 car between my fiancée and I at the time, so use of the vehicle was often massively disruptive to her commute and/or other planned used. (I typically got the train to work).
Anyway, I pushed back on the use of my own car and demanded a hire car for any trips out of the office......Well that went down like a **** sandwich and it was made to be a massive issue by my line manager and office manager at the time. Nonetheless, I stood my ground and the rest was history, but the shear 'expectation' of these companies is a joke - It happens to my wife these days at the school she works at (as a receptionist), running money to the bank, visiting other schools and even delivery lunches and books to kids in the local area (don't ask). It's nothing more than convenience (for them) and money saving on their part, with zero consideration for the bigger picture.
If your daughter was to have an accident whilst 'on business', ignoring the argument with the insurer regarding her movements at the time, she'll have an excess to pay (probably not an insignificant amount for an 18 year old) and then deal with the fall out of the increased premiums for years to come (again, probably not insignificant for a young driver)....not to mention the shear hassle of it all.
Unless you were given a car allowance and/or are doing significant & regular miles, I see this is as a complete no-go for most people really, especially for a youngster/someone on a low wage. Unless it benefits you financially to a sensible level (proportionally covers costs inc. risk element considered), I personally wouldn't ever agree to it. Especially not for 'ad hoc' journeys where you'll never see a pay back on your increase insurance costs.
As the advise you have already been given, this needs to stop. Is it worth jeopardising the job for...? At her age/level, yes probably. She'll find another....
C5_Steve said:
They absolutely can make it a condition of employment if it's in her contract and it usually will be for large retailers that have multiple stores close by. I can tell you from experience that the clause will specify the distance/time of travel they consider reasonable. Same as they will probably have something in there along the lines of "from time to time we may ask you to undertake roles outside of your normal work......"
You're right with her being less protected with her term in role but that doesn't mean she has to comply with requests outside her terms of employment which are of financial detriment to herself.
To be clear they can mandate that she from time to time travel to another place of work, they can't mandate she carry passengers in her personal car.You're right with her being less protected with her term in role but that doesn't mean she has to comply with requests outside her terms of employment which are of financial detriment to herself.
Wouldn't the company be in some pickle if God forbid the passenger behaved inappropriately or even was accused of it.
In this day and age I think its absolutely scandalous that she is being asked to do this. Would all be so different if she knew the guy and it was he who had asked her for the spin.
I'd also go the insurance route.
In this day and age I think its absolutely scandalous that she is being asked to do this. Would all be so different if she knew the guy and it was he who had asked her for the spin.
I'd also go the insurance route.
surveyor_101 said:
C5_Steve said:
They absolutely can make it a condition of employment if it's in her contract and it usually will be for large retailers that have multiple stores close by. I can tell you from experience that the clause will specify the distance/time of travel they consider reasonable. Same as they will probably have something in there along the lines of "from time to time we may ask you to undertake roles outside of your normal work......"
You're right with her being less protected with her term in role but that doesn't mean she has to comply with requests outside her terms of employment which are of financial detriment to herself.
To be clear they can mandate that she from time to time travel to another place of work, they can't mandate she carry passengers in her personal car.You're right with her being less protected with her term in role but that doesn't mean she has to comply with requests outside her terms of employment which are of financial detriment to herself.
In terms of “going to HR” etc now it is important to know how the company is set up. If it’s Vodafone for instance their shops are franchises and the route to complain about things may be different.
She has done it today. What I would say now is just monitor it. I wouldn’t make a big deal of it until requested again
surveyor_101 said:
To be clear they can mandate that she from time to time travel to another place of work, they can't mandate she carry passengers in her personal car.
Completely agree and I said this in my original comment. They can't request she picks someone up in her personal car, even making the request would open them up to an amount of liability. surveyor_101 said:
Hammersia said:
At that point as a dad I'd be off down to the shop and having it out with this gorgon, calmly, in front of witnesses. Your daughter is too young to deal with this.
If the manager was female would you still go down there guns blazing??? Also calling them a gorgon!! Edited by surveyor_101 on Thursday 16th March 11:15
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