Gross Misconduct?
Discussion
_DJ_ said:
Were the comments made using a corporate mobile phone? Do the company have a policy on using WhatsApp? Were they made inside or outside of working hours.
WhatsApp is really difficult to police as an employer. I guess they probably haven't adequately covered themselves here, and this will be very difficult to enforce legally.
Private phone and not an official WhatsApp group but work related as it only has work people in it. Outside office hours.WhatsApp is really difficult to police as an employer. I guess they probably haven't adequately covered themselves here, and this will be very difficult to enforce legally.
I don't know if there's a WhatsApp policy but I imagine our company has a social media policy which they may have WhatsApp come under.
Jasandjules said:
You noted one example, from that I presume there are multiple examples?
I presume they have deemed this Gross Misconduct? Rather than a dismissal following other issues/warnings etc on record?
I don't know the first ones record but the guy the other night has a good record and this one comment has been singled out. He's currently just suspended pending investigation.I presume they have deemed this Gross Misconduct? Rather than a dismissal following other issues/warnings etc on record?
Edited by Jasandjules on Saturday 13th April 12:05
Terminator X said:
Just deny it. No way it can be proven to be you or them.
TX.
Not great advice. An employer doesn't need to prove anything beyond reasonable doubt or even balance of probabilities (the standards of proof in criminal and civil court, respectively). So long as they believe something and have reasonabke grounds for that belief (like a statement from a co-worker and some screenshots), they can act on it. They then have to respond within the range of outcomes a reasonable employer would.TX.
Whether in this case that includes dismissal will depend on all the circumstances (such as context, previous disciplinary record, length of service, amongst others).
paddy1970 said:
Disparaging comments about management, especially those shared publicly or among colleagues, is usually considered serious misconduct, justifying dismissal.
If that's the norm then so be it! Thankfully I have a bit more sense than to write thoughts down onto groups with about 40 people on!paddy1970 said:
Disparaging comments about management, especially those shared publicly or among colleagues, is usually considered serious misconduct, justifying dismissal.
I ran the OP past my wife, who is a very experienced employment lawyer, and her advice was the opposite of this. High risk that the dismissal would be found to be unfair.paulrockliffe said:
paddy1970 said:
Disparaging comments about management, especially those shared publicly or among colleagues, is usually considered serious misconduct, justifying dismissal.
I ran the OP past my wife, who is a very experienced employment lawyer, and her advice was the opposite of this. High risk that the dismissal would be found to be unfair.
The first ones Appeal is next week and obviously a waiting game for the second.
I'll update the thread when more riveting information appears.
Hondashark said:
Exactly what was written is in my post above. When they pulled him in a few nights ago it was just the screen shot of that they showed him and grilled him over and he just said no comment for the whole thing. They didn't allow him to get a union rep there, just 10 mins to find a witness to have in with him.
He has a legal right to a union rep but you haven't said what the context is or what led to them saying this or what other similar messages were sent or how many others were piling in.Hondashark said:
I don't know the first ones record but the guy the other night has a good record and this one comment has been singled out. He's currently just suspended pending investigation.
How do you know he has a good record and hasn't done something that has got him into trouble without you hearing about it?paulrockliffe said:
paddy1970 said:
Disparaging comments about management, especially those shared publicly or among colleagues, is usually considered serious misconduct, justifying dismissal.
I ran the OP past my wife, who is a very experienced employment lawyer, and her advice was the opposite of this. High risk that the dismissal would be found to be unfair.jasonrobertson86 said:
paulrockliffe said:
paddy1970 said:
Disparaging comments about management, especially those shared publicly or among colleagues, is usually considered serious misconduct, justifying dismissal.
I ran the OP past my wife, who is a very experienced employment lawyer, and her advice was the opposite of this. High risk that the dismissal would be found to be unfair.In relation to unfair dismissal, it hinges on:
a. Whether the employer conducted a thorough investigation.
b. If the employee was given a fair hearing and opportunity to defend themselves.
c. Whether the employer considered less severe disciplinary actions.
d. If the punishment was consistent with those given in similar past circumstances.
paddy1970 said:
Employees might have an expectation of privacy when using personal social media platforms or messaging apps. However, this expectation is mitigated if the content shared becomes public (e.g., through screenshots) or if the messages are shared within a group that includes colleagues and pertains to work-related matters.
In relation to unfair dismissal, it hinges on:
a. Whether the employer conducted a thorough investigation.
b. If the employee was given a fair hearing and opportunity to defend themselves.
c. Whether the employer considered less severe disciplinary actions.
d. If the punishment was consistent with those given in similar past circumstances.
Eh?In relation to unfair dismissal, it hinges on:
a. Whether the employer conducted a thorough investigation.
b. If the employee was given a fair hearing and opportunity to defend themselves.
c. Whether the employer considered less severe disciplinary actions.
d. If the punishment was consistent with those given in similar past circumstances.
Mr Penguin said:
Hondashark said:
Exactly what was written is in my post above. When they pulled him in a few nights ago it was just the screen shot of that they showed him and grilled him over and he just said no comment for the whole thing. They didn't allow him to get a union rep there, just 10 mins to find a witness to have in with him.
He has a legal right to a union rep but you haven't said what the context is or what led to them saying this or what other similar messages were sent or how many others were piling in.Hondashark said:
I don't know the first ones record but the guy the other night has a good record and this one comment has been singled out. He's currently just suspended pending investigation.
How do you know he has a good record and hasn't done something that has got him into trouble without you hearing about it?The whatsapp groups doesn't have all employees in, it's a union group so only those in the union. They are talking about someone else, not a manager but the only comment that has been highlighted is the one that references the top manager. It's the only screenshot brought up in the meeting and the only thing he was trying to get him to admit to saying.
I know this guy very well, also know the witness well as I started on the same day as him. And I also know the union reps and his direct manager well.
Secrets don't get kept in this place!
If there was more risky stuff that had gone off I wouldn't really be questioning anything! It just the fact they called the boss a bad name that's gone straight to sacking that's amazed me, I thought there were other steps that had to be gone through. It'll all come out in the wash though, or they'll get their jobs back/compensation.
So what was said in the 10-20 messages before this was said or the justification for saying it at that time? I struggle to believe that someone would say that out of the blue without any immediate reason. More likely it was a long conversation with people complaining or the manager said or did something to him that day.
Hondashark said:
Exactly what was written is in my post above. When they pulled him in a few nights ago it was just the screen shot of that they showed him and grilled him over and he just said no comment for the whole thing. They didn't allow him to get a union rep there, just 10 mins to find a witness to have in with him.
Someone deciding to say “no comment” in an HR meeting is taking the piss.What’s required is an open and honest explanation of what happened.
paulrockliffe said:
I ran the OP past my wife, who is a very experienced employment lawyer, and her advice was the opposite of this. High risk that the dismissal would be found to be unfair.
I’d be happy to take that risk.I’d have them escorted out, pass taken off them, and any future reference making clear why they were let go.
Ken_Code said:
Maybe not, but this was published to a group in writing.
I’d not entertain keeping someone on who did this
We had someone who did something similar, he did have genuine mitigating circumstances and was otherwise a model and talented employee - he was given a formal warning and was watched like a hawk for months afterwards until he left.I’d not entertain keeping someone on who did this
Gossiping and insulting people behind their backs is just a type of bullying.
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