Working with dangerous gasses, no PPE supplied ?
Discussion
A small amount of gas is leaked at the start when purging the flexible line between the pressure gauges and the appliance. When the system is pressurised (normally around 10-11 bar / 150psi), the test gauges need to be removed. There are valves on the appliance and ones at the top of the flexible pipes. Removing the pipes lets the gas from the 1.5m test pipe into the air. There are pipes available which have valves at both ends but the company doesn't have any.
The gauges are very similar to these
The gauges are very similar to these
Under the HASWA 1974 your firm are required to assess the risk involved in the works.
Your firm are required to prevent you from suffering injury or illness in the course of your work.
If you do suffer an injury or illness in the course of your work the are required to demonstrate they undertook all resaonable measures to prevent it.
I would suggest you make a written request for a risk assessment to be undertaken and suitable protective gear be provided.
If they do not, or refuse then make a complaint to the HSE. Your life and health isnt worth this kind of bullsh*t from employers.
Your firm are required to prevent you from suffering injury or illness in the course of your work.
If you do suffer an injury or illness in the course of your work the are required to demonstrate they undertook all resaonable measures to prevent it.
I would suggest you make a written request for a risk assessment to be undertaken and suitable protective gear be provided.
If they do not, or refuse then make a complaint to the HSE. Your life and health isnt worth this kind of bullsh*t from employers.
I'm bumping this topic because, after a long period of thinking 'this isn't worth the hassle', I'm definitely going to persue it.
I spoke to an ex colleague last week whose request for the correct equipment fell on deaf ears, and he's still having to work in confined spaces with this stuff without any protection.
The equipment we fit is below.
Dometic split - gas reversible air conditioning systems
Note the warning tags regarding cancerous contents. I don't know if it refers to the gas, the nitrogen we use to purge / vac the system or the fluorescent dye in the compressor.
Would love to take this further.
I spoke to an ex colleague last week whose request for the correct equipment fell on deaf ears, and he's still having to work in confined spaces with this stuff without any protection.
The equipment we fit is below.
Dometic split - gas reversible air conditioning systems
Note the warning tags regarding cancerous contents. I don't know if it refers to the gas, the nitrogen we use to purge / vac the system or the fluorescent dye in the compressor.
Would love to take this further.
Bottom line is you should be supplied with the appropriate PPE by your employer; not supplying it is a breach of HASAWA. If you have been hurt as a result of them not supplying the right PPE and can prove it, you stand a chance of getting some wedge. On the other hand, the State of California seems to find most things carcinogenic, a more reliable source of info will be the COSHH data(which should also be supplied by your employer) or the US equivalent(OHSA I think).
Mark34bn said:
ALawson said:
All you need do is contact the HSE, they will send somebody down to where you work and have a look about.
How many people does your company employ?
OK I'll look into that. There are about 1700/1800 staff.How many people does your company employ?
Better speak up know. If the HSE turn up and the company have carried out a RA and there is no risk then their only finding will be that they haven't informed the workforce properly as you haven't signed any briefings. On the other hand if there is something amiss in that controls haven't been put in place or followed the risk hierarchy then they could be in trouble.
They should be able to prove that they have followed "ESCAPE" risk process.
Eliminate the risk
Substitute the risk for something else i.e. another gas or work method
Control or contain the risk
Alter the work methods
Provide Personal Protective Equipment
Educate and enforce the use off PPE
Edit: You could always contact this lot and as for a RA giving them the material information and environment that you are using it.
http://www.sypol.com/
Edited by ALawson on Monday 5th April 12:36
Mark34bn said:
There are pipes available which have valves at both ends but the company doesn't have any.
The valves are only a few £'s if I was that worried I would hve bought some myself.Also could you not pump the unit down and remove the gauges with no or very little gas escaping?
I have checked the BOC safety datat sheet for R417a and there is no mention of carcanogenic risks, just possibilty of asphyxiation, as with most other refrigerant gases.
Ive worked with that refrigerant for about ten years along with many others, r134a, r22, r404a, r407c,r502 etc etc. Believe me I have inhailed more of that gas over the years than I could count. The only real problems with all of the gases are they are heavier than air. So in a confined space if you let a large amount out, you would pretty quickly start to feel dizzy, and would lose consciousness and probably have central nervous system failures.If you were not found within a set time your dead. This would take quite a few kg of gas to do, and would depend on the amount of floor sapce it had to fill.
The other problem is if you put a naked flame to the gas it produces phosgene,like mustard gas. It gets your eyes and your throat badly. This would only happen if you were trying to braze in an area where either the refrigerant was still escaping, or you had a leak and didnt ventilate first before you lit your torch.
I dont know anyone who has had any effect from breathing in the gas, and believe me we breath in more than just the little bit from taking off the gauges etc, and I know alot of refrigeration engineers.
As for the cancer warnings on the units, I did get told about that once when I seen one on a truck unit that had come from America, and apparently over there its common to have the warnings on all refrigeration equipment. Am sure it has something to do with the oil in the systems though. Although I could be wrong.
As for the PPE you should be supplied with it should have been gloves and goggles for use with the refrigerant. Any other PPE would be down to the comany you work for, eg boot overalls etc.
The other problem is if you put a naked flame to the gas it produces phosgene,like mustard gas. It gets your eyes and your throat badly. This would only happen if you were trying to braze in an area where either the refrigerant was still escaping, or you had a leak and didnt ventilate first before you lit your torch.
I dont know anyone who has had any effect from breathing in the gas, and believe me we breath in more than just the little bit from taking off the gauges etc, and I know alot of refrigeration engineers.
As for the cancer warnings on the units, I did get told about that once when I seen one on a truck unit that had come from America, and apparently over there its common to have the warnings on all refrigeration equipment. Am sure it has something to do with the oil in the systems though. Although I could be wrong.
As for the PPE you should be supplied with it should have been gloves and goggles for use with the refrigerant. Any other PPE would be down to the comany you work for, eg boot overalls etc.
i don't know exactly what r417a (or whatever) is chemically, but its probably some kind of fluoro/halo carbon gas (edit: I checked and it is a mix of tetrafluoroethane, pentafluoroethane and butane). It is pretty unlikely to be carcinogenic. They have different laws etc. in the US so labels applicable to the US do not apply here.
The guy who invented CFCs (which the gas you worked with is a variant/derivative) used to demonstrate how safe they were by putting them in his mouth and blowing them out again...
r417a will also not produce phosgene when burnt - it doesn't have any chlorine atoms in it (phosgene is COCl2)
The guy who invented CFCs (which the gas you worked with is a variant/derivative) used to demonstrate how safe they were by putting them in his mouth and blowing them out again...
r417a will also not produce phosgene when burnt - it doesn't have any chlorine atoms in it (phosgene is COCl2)
Edited by DangerousMike on Friday 9th April 08:29
Google R417a MSDS which will give you numerous material safety data sheets on the gas including the health hazards and required PPE/handling instructions.
The gas is NOT carcinogenic, toxic or flammable and doesn't require any special PPE unless you're likely to be exposed to high concentrations or large amounts of it in liquid form. And then it's only common sense precautionary stuff.
The warning label most likely refers to the oil contained within the compressor being a possible carcinogen. Bear in mind that pretty much all oils are carcinogens if sufficiently exposed, hence the arse covering labels on the US sourced equipment. Were you regularly exposed to large amounts of compressor oil during your time there?
The above are all things you have to be 100% on if you're wanting to take legal action. As it stands, the HSE could only issue the company with a slapped wrist as other than working with compressed gasses, it's not a life safety or serious injury hazard.
The gas is NOT carcinogenic, toxic or flammable and doesn't require any special PPE unless you're likely to be exposed to high concentrations or large amounts of it in liquid form. And then it's only common sense precautionary stuff.
The warning label most likely refers to the oil contained within the compressor being a possible carcinogen. Bear in mind that pretty much all oils are carcinogens if sufficiently exposed, hence the arse covering labels on the US sourced equipment. Were you regularly exposed to large amounts of compressor oil during your time there?
The above are all things you have to be 100% on if you're wanting to take legal action. As it stands, the HSE could only issue the company with a slapped wrist as other than working with compressed gasses, it's not a life safety or serious injury hazard.
Edited by dvs_dave on Friday 9th April 15:36
dvs_dave said:
Google R417a MSDS which will give you numerous material safety data sheets on the gas including the health hazards and required PPE/handling instructions.
The gas is NOT carcinogenic, toxic or flammable and doesn't require any special PPE unless you're likely to be exposed to high concentrations or large amounts of it in liquid form. And then it's only common sense precautionary stuff.
The warning label most likely refers to the oil contained within the compressor being a possible carcinogen. Bear in mind that pretty much all oils are carcinogens if sufficiently exposed, hence the arse covering labels on the US sourced equipment. Were you regularly exposed to large amounts of compressor oil during your time there?
The above are all things you have to be 100% on if you're wanting to take legal action. As it stands, the HSE could only issue the company with a slapped wrist as other than working with compressed gasses, it's not a life safety or serious injury hazard.
I wouldn't say I was exposed to large amounts of compressor oil, I spent about one day a week vaccing out / commissioning and the rest of the time fitting fans / pipework / compressors on the boats.The gas is NOT carcinogenic, toxic or flammable and doesn't require any special PPE unless you're likely to be exposed to high concentrations or large amounts of it in liquid form. And then it's only common sense precautionary stuff.
The warning label most likely refers to the oil contained within the compressor being a possible carcinogen. Bear in mind that pretty much all oils are carcinogens if sufficiently exposed, hence the arse covering labels on the US sourced equipment. Were you regularly exposed to large amounts of compressor oil during your time there?
The above are all things you have to be 100% on if you're wanting to take legal action. As it stands, the HSE could only issue the company with a slapped wrist as other than working with compressed gasses, it's not a life safety or serious injury hazard.
Edited by dvs_dave on Friday 9th April 15:36
Based on the evidence above, this probably isn't going anywhere.
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