Advice please re: bad job reference leading to dismissal...
Discussion
Golden fleece said:
Thanks all. Looks like she has run out of options. 
Shame really, because she has worked for FC for 5 yrs and was a valuable and highly regarded member of staff until getting bored the past year or so and taking the piss a bit. Her biggest mistake was the misguided attempt to help out a colleague by lying about something quite serious (and then getting found out)!
Did she have the same manager the whole time? If she could get a better reference from a former manager then she would improve her chances a lot. If she has worked for the same manager and been a good employee for most of 5 years then I would suggest she goes and has another talk to her former manager to try and clear things up. She didn't after all get sacked, which would be more difficult.Shame really, because she has worked for FC for 5 yrs and was a valuable and highly regarded member of staff until getting bored the past year or so and taking the piss a bit. Her biggest mistake was the misguided attempt to help out a colleague by lying about something quite serious (and then getting found out)!
However, if she was bored to the point of being late and lying for her friend then is another job in another fashion shop in the same shopping centre really the answer?
Thanks for the input and advice. I agree - a hear-to-heart with the former Manager may be the only answer, but I'm not sure how easy this will be!
Even if she gets out of Fashion Retail, FC is her only longish-term job (she's only 25) and so a reference from them would always be sought by any future employer.
Even if she gets out of Fashion Retail, FC is her only longish-term job (she's only 25) and so a reference from them would always be sought by any future employer.
Broomsticklady said:
Difference tho between a formal reference from the HR dept and a word of mouth by the b
hy manager to her friend!!
Very good point! I think going forward, my friend should just refer all reference requests to the French Connection Head Office HR dept. They are the most likely to give a neutral ref, even after establishing the facts with the shop manager herself.hy manager to her friend!! Golden fleece said:
Broomsticklady said:
Difference tho between a formal reference from the HR dept and a word of mouth by the bhy manager to her friend!!
Very good point! I think going forward, my friend should just refer all reference requests to the French Connection Head Office HR dept. They are the most likely to give a neutral ref, even after establishing the facts with the shop manager herself.hy manager to her friend!! bigandclever said:
I suppose she's entitled to see the FC reference that was provided to KM?
I don't know if she's legally entitled to see the reference, but I always take the view that the reference is the property of the person supplying it. I wouldn't release a reference to the subject of it without the express permission of the person supplying it.If I had a crap member of staff leave for another job I would not bad mouth them to their new employer. I would simply say that I would not like to give a reference for that particular person.
That then lets the new employer decide exactly how bad the person must be.
Whether the old manager was a bhy woman or not, you're mate pissed on her own bonfire. Even if the reference was scrupiously honest, it would mention her appaling employment record.
That is her fault and no-one elses.
The only thing she could do is fess up in the interview and discuss her previous poor performance. If she can come up with a plausible and reasonable explanation they are likely to give her a chance. But they would be on their guard for the first sign off a slip up.
That then lets the new employer decide exactly how bad the person must be.
Whether the old manager was a b
hy woman or not, you're mate pissed on her own bonfire. Even if the reference was scrupiously honest, it would mention her appaling employment record. That is her fault and no-one elses.
The only thing she could do is fess up in the interview and discuss her previous poor performance. If she can come up with a plausible and reasonable explanation they are likely to give her a chance. But they would be on their guard for the first sign off a slip up.
As a retail area manager....
I can only back up what others have said - put down the head office HR dept. as the reference - which will usually just get a return of 'We employed Ms. X from <date> to <date> as <position>' .
HR depts. are paranoid about any kind of comeback, so rarely supply any more detail.
I was once caught out by something similar - and was called in to see HR and a Regional Manager, as some 'word of mouth' info. had got back to a new employer - I explained everything fully, and believe they knew they couldn't really take the word of mouth rumours over my word, so let it go.
However, one of the problems of 'high street fashion' is that the calibre of management is very poor (my current business has taken on managers from high street chains, but generally only at team leader or dept. manager for someone very good) - so I doubt many will adopt the very 'professional' attitude I experienced in similar circumstances.
I can only back up what others have said - put down the head office HR dept. as the reference - which will usually just get a return of 'We employed Ms. X from <date> to <date> as <position>' .
HR depts. are paranoid about any kind of comeback, so rarely supply any more detail.
I was once caught out by something similar - and was called in to see HR and a Regional Manager, as some 'word of mouth' info. had got back to a new employer - I explained everything fully, and believe they knew they couldn't really take the word of mouth rumours over my word, so let it go.
However, one of the problems of 'high street fashion' is that the calibre of management is very poor (my current business has taken on managers from high street chains, but generally only at team leader or dept. manager for someone very good) - so I doubt many will adopt the very 'professional' attitude I experienced in similar circumstances.
CinqAbarth said:
As a retail area manager....
I can only back up what others have said - put down the head office HR dept. as the reference - which will usually just get a return of 'We employed Ms. X from <date> to <date> as <position>' .
HR depts. are paranoid about any kind of comeback, so rarely supply any more detail.
I was once caught out by something similar - and was called in to see HR and a Regional Manager, as some 'word of mouth' info. had got back to a new employer - I explained everything fully, and believe they knew they couldn't really take the word of mouth rumours over my word, so let it go.
However, one of the problems of 'high street fashion' is that the calibre of management is very poor (my current business has taken on managers from high street chains, but generally only at team leader or dept. manager for someone very good) - so I doubt many will adopt the very 'professional' attitude I experienced in similar circumstances.
Thanks for this input - very useful. My friend's mistake (apart from not being professional at work!) was to give her old Manager as her reference as opposed to the Head Office HR dept. However, it didn't help that the two stores were in the same shopping centre, virtually next door to each other - so very tempting for the new manager to just 'pop round' for an informal chat!I can only back up what others have said - put down the head office HR dept. as the reference - which will usually just get a return of 'We employed Ms. X from <date> to <date> as <position>' .
HR depts. are paranoid about any kind of comeback, so rarely supply any more detail.
I was once caught out by something similar - and was called in to see HR and a Regional Manager, as some 'word of mouth' info. had got back to a new employer - I explained everything fully, and believe they knew they couldn't really take the word of mouth rumours over my word, so let it go.
However, one of the problems of 'high street fashion' is that the calibre of management is very poor (my current business has taken on managers from high street chains, but generally only at team leader or dept. manager for someone very good) - so I doubt many will adopt the very 'professional' attitude I experienced in similar circumstances.
Grumpy old git said:
bigandclever said:
I suppose she's entitled to see the FC reference that was provided to KM?
I don't know if she's legally entitled to see the reference, but I always take the view that the reference is the property of the person supplying it. I wouldn't release a reference to the subject of it without the express permission of the person supplying it.She has to put in a request to see it, the manager/HR dept may refuse but then she can inform the information commisioners office who will instruct the relevant people to release the reference, there are only very few exceptions to refusing to allow someone to see a reference under the data protection act and most cases will not come under the exceptions!
managers and HR depts should do themselves a favour and stop, illegaly, witholding peoples references.
The re-course is for an employee to examine the company policy on references in relation to their employment contract. This can be demanded. If there is no policy regarding references and the company has acted outside its policy then there is a complaint for Deformation of Character against the company and the individual responsibl as well as Breach of Contract.
As much as I agree with others on here that your mate sounds like a silly cow who brought this on herself, I would rather she were working and not living on benefits paid for by my taxes, so here are my thoughts on how she can get past this and find another job.
HONESTY! If she goes and speaks to the FC manager or stamps her feet and makes a fuss it will just serve to make her look worse because if she hadn't been st at the job in the first place then no one would be able to give her a bad reference. SO, at her next job interview when they ask "Why did you leave your last job?" I would suggest she answers in all honesty, without being bhy, that although she loved the job in the begining a conflict of personalities with the manager meant that she was no longer enjoying working there and had become complacent in her job. So now she is looking for a fresh challenge. That way any bhing by her old manager will be taken as just that and there will be no come back because your friend has already told them the truth. Being open and honest with them also shows that she doesn't make a habit of lying so will work in her favour if that incident is mentioned.
Hopefully now she will realise that if she wants to get on she will have to work twice as hard in her next job, be punctual and not lie. That's the only way she can repair the damage she has done to her reputation. And don't even think about sueing! Is she having a laugh? Apart from the fact that she is clearly in the wrong and would get laughed out of court, would you want to employ someone who brought such a ridiculous petty case against her former employer? I wouldn't!
One last thing, is there a supervisor or someone else who knows her personally at FC and would be less hostile that she could give as a reference?
HONESTY! If she goes and speaks to the FC manager or stamps her feet and makes a fuss it will just serve to make her look worse because if she hadn't been s
t at the job in the first place then no one would be able to give her a bad reference. SO, at her next job interview when they ask "Why did you leave your last job?" I would suggest she answers in all honesty, without being bhy, that although she loved the job in the begining a conflict of personalities with the manager meant that she was no longer enjoying working there and had become complacent in her job. So now she is looking for a fresh challenge. That way any bhing by her old manager will be taken as just that and there will be no come back because your friend has already told them the truth. Being open and honest with them also shows that she doesn't make a habit of lying so will work in her favour if that incident is mentioned.Hopefully now she will realise that if she wants to get on she will have to work twice as hard in her next job, be punctual and not lie. That's the only way she can repair the damage she has done to her reputation. And don't even think about sueing! Is she having a laugh? Apart from the fact that she is clearly in the wrong and would get laughed out of court, would you want to employ someone who brought such a ridiculous petty case against her former employer? I wouldn't!
One last thing, is there a supervisor or someone else who knows her personally at FC and would be less hostile that she could give as a reference?
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