Overtime, contracts, custom and practice
Discussion
An employee makes 20 visits overseas on behalf of the company and on each occasion the overtime booked is not queried and the form is signed. This overtime includes time spend travelling to and from the foreign country. After the 21st visit the overtime booked for the travel is rejected as "we don't pay travelling time when overseas". There is nothing in the employee's contract or company handbook about this, it seems to be a section manager's decision.
Does "custom and practice" apply in that as it was acceptable for 20 instances it still should be so?
Does this constitute a change of contract?
Help and advice appreciated please.
Does "custom and practice" apply in that as it was acceptable for 20 instances it still should be so?
Does this constitute a change of contract?
Help and advice appreciated please.
^^ wouldn't that depend on whether the travelling took place during or outside office hours?
I would certainly have got paid overtime if I travelled after 6:30pm (plus expenses).
OP. Personally I'd say stuff it and refuse to go any more. I don't understand the mentality of companies, who expect employees to spend their own time benefitting company business for no uplift.
I would certainly have got paid overtime if I travelled after 6:30pm (plus expenses).
OP. Personally I'd say stuff it and refuse to go any more. I don't understand the mentality of companies, who expect employees to spend their own time benefitting company business for no uplift.
Edited by Fatman2 on Thursday 11th November 22:48
Fatman2 said:
^^ wouldn't that depend on whether the travelling took place during or outside office hours?
I would certainly have got paid overtime if I travelled after 6:30pm (plus expenses).
OP. Personally I'd say stuff it and refuse to go any more. I don't understand the mentality of companies, who expect employees to spend their own time benefitting company business for no uplift.
To clarify:I would certainly have got paid overtime if I travelled after 6:30pm (plus expenses).
OP. Personally I'd say stuff it and refuse to go any more. I don't understand the mentality of companies, who expect employees to spend their own time benefitting company business for no uplift.
Edited by Fatman2 on Thursday 11th November 22:48
Situation is that I arrange my travel to ensure maximum working time at foreign site which means my return flight lands at midnight and I get home at 3am, I could have travelled the next day but that would be a whole day lost travelling.
On the travel day that would be start work at about half-past eight am, taxi to the airport at seven pm then fly...
So I put myself out to help my employer and on this occasion "foreign travel" does not count as overtime yet it was OK on the previous (more than ten) instances.
HR department have no policy on this at the moment.
What legislation is applicable and does the reimbursement of overtime on previous occasions set a precedent?
Do I have grounds for a grievance?
Edited by 100SRV on Thursday 11th November 22:58
100SRV said:
This overtime includes time spend travelling to and from the foreign country.
Are these short, like single day, trips?I'm just thinking that the logical extention of this for time away from home (whether abroad or in the UK) would be that you would be paid for every hour you weren't at home. That would be nice (Shell used to pay people like that) but it's surely not feasible?
100SRV said:
Fatman2 said:
^^ wouldn't that depend on whether the travelling took place during or outside office hours?
I would certainly have got paid overtime if I travelled after 6:30pm (plus expenses).
OP. Personally I'd say stuff it and refuse to go any more. I don't understand the mentality of companies, who expect employees to spend their own time benefitting company business for no uplift.
To clarify:I would certainly have got paid overtime if I travelled after 6:30pm (plus expenses).
OP. Personally I'd say stuff it and refuse to go any more. I don't understand the mentality of companies, who expect employees to spend their own time benefitting company business for no uplift.
Edited by Fatman2 on Thursday 11th November 22:48
Situation is that I arrange my travel to ensure maximum working time at foreign site which means my return flight lands at midnight and I get home at 3am, I could have travelled the next day but that would be a whole day lost travelling.
On the travel day that would be start work at about half-past eight am, taxi to the airport at seven pm then fly...
So I put myself out to help my employer and on this occasion "foreign travel" does not count as overtime yet it was OK on the previous (more than ten) instances.
HR department have no policy on this at the moment.
What legislation is applicable and does the reimbursement of overtime on previous occasions set a precedent?
Do I have grounds for a grievance?
Edited by 100SRV on Thursday 11th November 22:58
HR as usual seem to be dodging the responsibility to decide either way so, from my own experience, the only way is to lay it on the line to your manager. If it's been paid before then it clearly is acceptable and if HR has no policy then I would have thought it was then down to the managers' discretion. The only feasible conclusions in my mind are that your manager is either being crap or that he's failed to pass on a memo/notice or to keep you up to date with a change in policy (which I guess is not possible as there isn't one!).
Given you clearly appear to be a 'good egg' and have been working to maximise company productivity then I would ask for written clarification. I realise it's a pain to you but if they are not prepared to pay you for your trouble then do all of your travelling during office hours.
Sadly I've been through this kind of stuff before and it's frustrating. You try to give 100% but in return they throw it back in your face. Charming!
Best of luck with it all and I hope someone more qualified than me can chip in
Edited by Fatman2 on Thursday 11th November 23:36
The company seems to have set its stall out. You need to think about how you will achieve your aim. The thing with custom and practice and impiled tersm i that you cannot necessarly point your finger to a specific item of law which explicity covers your scenario. As usual these things are often resolved by case law.
If push comes to shove then you may need to be prepared to lodge a tribunal claim. As you can imagine these nearly always destroy whatever relationship remains.
I would suggest you put in writing your complaint with your reasoning and rationale clearly detailed. You don't necessarily have to label it up under the grievance procedure but if you get nowhere then that would be your route.
As an aside there are companies that count travel time as working time and you get tim eoff in lieu or adjust your working hours to suit. Me, I live in the SE but if I need to be in Plymouth or Newcastle then I will choose either to travel the night before or use some of the working day.
If push comes to shove then you may need to be prepared to lodge a tribunal claim. As you can imagine these nearly always destroy whatever relationship remains.
I would suggest you put in writing your complaint with your reasoning and rationale clearly detailed. You don't necessarily have to label it up under the grievance procedure but if you get nowhere then that would be your route.
As an aside there are companies that count travel time as working time and you get tim eoff in lieu or adjust your working hours to suit. Me, I live in the SE but if I need to be in Plymouth or Newcastle then I will choose either to travel the night before or use some of the working day.
Johnnytheboy said:
Law of unintended consequences sets in, you'll be very tempted to do your travelling in work time, thus lengthening your trips away.
I have made them aware of that consequence - it makes no odds to me as most of my travelling is now done - the project which required it is pretty well complete.As the previous poster said they have set their stall out. Sadly the company has a history of taking advantage of willing employees but managers are then amazed when folks won't volunteer for projects or stop late to finish things. You reap what you sow...I know where I stand now and will behave accordingly in future - not obstructive just protect my interests.
Thank you for the advice!
Fatman2 said:
^^ wouldn't that depend on whether the travelling took place during or outside office hours?
I would certainly have got paid overtime if I travelled after 6:30pm (plus expenses).
If I was salaried, I would not expect personally to claim travel outside of office hours. After all, most of us salaried staff wouldn't claim for the extra hour, two or three overtime put in regularly after work. I can see the argument though and guess it is down to individual policy.I would certainly have got paid overtime if I travelled after 6:30pm (plus expenses).
Merlot said:
Fatman2 said:
^^ wouldn't that depend on whether the travelling took place during or outside office hours?
I would certainly have got paid overtime if I travelled after 6:30pm (plus expenses).
If I was salaried, I would not expect personally to claim travel outside of office hours. After all, most of us salaried staff wouldn't claim for the extra hour, two or three overtime put in regularly after work. I can see the argument though and guess it is down to individual policy.I would certainly have got paid overtime if I travelled after 6:30pm (plus expenses).
Sadly I get the feeling the OP's company has a manager that likes to take the mick and expects people to work for free. Not on in my book.
Fatman2 said:
Merlot said:
Fatman2 said:
^^ wouldn't that depend on whether the travelling took place during or outside office hours?
I would certainly have got paid overtime if I travelled after 6:30pm (plus expenses).
If I was salaried, I would not expect personally to claim travel outside of office hours. After all, most of us salaried staff wouldn't claim for the extra hour, two or three overtime put in regularly after work. I can see the argument though and guess it is down to individual policy.I would certainly have got paid overtime if I travelled after 6:30pm (plus expenses).
Sadly I get the feeling the OP's company has a manager that likes to take the mick and expects people to work for free. Not on in my book.
O/T for travel, 'hardship allowance', TOIL, - all phrases that could be in Martian for all they matter to a recent employer. Economy everywhere, travel at the weekend, straight off plane into office, report $5bn/quarter profits and then wonder why turnover is over 20% in some areas..
Fatman2 said:
I guess I was fortunate when I was salaried as my company paid OT. If I did not get paid OT then I definitely wouldn't travel in my own time unless I knew the company gave it back in some way i.e. through a day in lieu or something.
Sadly I get the feeling the OP's company has a manager that likes to take the mick and expects people to work for free. Not on in my book.
IME people who I've worked with that have taken that attitude are those who get given the sSadly I get the feeling the OP's company has a manager that likes to take the mick and expects people to work for free. Not on in my book.
tty projects and whose names are first on the redundancy listthe days of paid OT for salaried staff are long gone
Merlot said:
Fatman2 said:
Merlot said:
Fatman2 said:
^^ wouldn't that depend on whether the travelling took place during or outside office hours?
I would certainly have got paid overtime if I travelled after 6:30pm (plus expenses).
If I was salaried, I would not expect personally to claim travel outside of office hours. After all, most of us salaried staff wouldn't claim for the extra hour, two or three overtime put in regularly after work. I can see the argument though and guess it is down to individual policy.I would certainly have got paid overtime if I travelled after 6:30pm (plus expenses).
Sadly I get the feeling the OP's company has a manager that likes to take the mick and expects people to work for free. Not on in my book.
I'm not trying to make out that I'm some kind of union worker as I will happily commit long hours to a company unpaid if I know the company I work for has some give/take. However, if I know the company I work for is happy to take the mick then I will ensure I get paid 100% (or I won't do it).
Edited by Fatman2 on Sunday 14th November 10:50
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