Recruitment companies...
Discussion
Mr POD said:
The Serious recruitmEnt agencies, give contact details, so that you can phone them before you send a CV and taylor the CV following the conversation, and believe me you'll know if you get them in conversation, if they are going to take your CV seriously before you send it.
Any agency that gives no contact details, can be contacted by googling them and you'll find a website with all the vacancies they hold and usually names of senior staff.
So far I've always got an interview if I talk to the agency before I send a CV.
As my first post states, I have tried on numerous occasions to contact the agents responsible for the advertised vacancies with almost zero success.Any agency that gives no contact details, can be contacted by googling them and you'll find a website with all the vacancies they hold and usually names of senior staff.
So far I've always got an interview if I talk to the agency before I send a CV.
'Phone numbers are displayed, email addresses are given etc and yet no one answers my calls, returns calls or messages or replies to any amount of emails. I have on occasion managed to get through to secretaries or admins and left personal messages with them for the agent to contact me. Various companies and as such numerous people just seem to be plain rude or ignorant towards potential candidates.
The same few companies are the ones that appear with similar jobs on the main job sites, so there seems to be little way around this.
Maybe it's just luck and one day I'll get one who picks up their 'phone.
Fake job advertising certainly happens in the domestic employment industry. In the Lady magazine one could reckon that at least two thirds of the good jobs were completely fake. You could tell the real ones because the money was quite a bit more 'realistic' and you would see the same job in two or three different agencies.
rodgerramjet said:
Is it normal to receive no reply to, or even acknowledgement of receipt of an application from a recruitment company these days?
I would advise you to call up the consultant (I am assuming you have a consultant's name) and speak to them directly. Even if you can't get through the first time, try again, sometimes they really are on the other line or in a meeting.It can be difficult sometimes for a consultant to respond to every single applicant individually. Imagine posting a job up and receiving 200 responses within a few hours. The priority would be to find the best candidates that the Client is looking for.
This makes it almost impossible to respond to each applicant regardless of whether or not they are right for the role. However, picking up the phone is probably the best way to ensure you get to speak with the consultant. I can't speak for others, but I am always more than happy to take calls from applicants.
Other tips, always tailor your CV for each and every role you apply for. I know some people who mass apply for jobs with the same CV. This rarely works.
I.e. if you are applying for a Project Manager role, but on your CV the last few roles are all about your work as a Developer, then the chances of you getting a call off the consultant are massively reduced.
Best of luck with your job search.
rodgerramjet said:
As my first post states, I have tried on numerous occasions to contact the agents responsible for the advertised vacancies with almost zero success.
'Phone numbers are displayed, email addresses are given etc and yet no one answers my calls, returns calls or messages or replies to any amount of emails. I have on occasion managed to get through to secretaries or admins and left personal messages with them for the agent to contact me. Various companies and as such numerous people just seem to be plain rude or ignorant towards potential candidates.
The same few companies are the ones that appear with similar jobs on the main job sites, so there seems to be little way around this.
Maybe it's just luck and one day I'll get one who picks up their 'phone.
Im with Pod here. I always find a number for the agent and ring them. I pretty much always get through and have a chat. I regard this as essential because I know I know more about the job than the agent does and I need to know just exactly what he thinks he is advertising for and what is required not what he thinks is required. Remember agents and agencies are just like management...they need to be handled and managed correctly to make sure they dont f'Phone numbers are displayed, email addresses are given etc and yet no one answers my calls, returns calls or messages or replies to any amount of emails. I have on occasion managed to get through to secretaries or admins and left personal messages with them for the agent to contact me. Various companies and as such numerous people just seem to be plain rude or ignorant towards potential candidates.
The same few companies are the ones that appear with similar jobs on the main job sites, so there seems to be little way around this.
Maybe it's just luck and one day I'll get one who picks up their 'phone.
k things up.V8mate said:
They're probably fake jobs and the consultants are just trawling for CVs.
Absolutely - any ad by a "big" recruitment agency in trade press includes a list of fake job ads. Call quoting the ref for that job and, "sorry, that's gone. Would you be interested in....."Jobs turn around so quickly (and there are so many) for the big firms that there's no point advertising specific jobs.
That said, recruitment consultants rank with estate agents on the trying to sell you something you don't want scale.
"I know you've only been with your current employer for 12 months, but have you thought about a move?"
"Have you considered working for XXXX" I used to work for them "Oh did you" Yes, it's on my CV
etc etc etc
DJRC said:
Im with Pod here. I always find a number for the agent and ring them. I pretty much always get through and have a chat. I regard this as essential because I know I know more about the job than the agent does and I need to know just exactly what he thinks he is advertising for and what is required not what he thinks is required. Remember agents and agencies are just like management...they need to be handled and managed correctly to make sure they dont fk things up.
Again, as stated previously, I have tried to 'phone the agents responsible on many occasions. I'm not talking about once or twice, I'm talking about many attempts to 'phone them. On a couple of occasions the secretary/PA/girl on the front desk has got a bit shirty and told me to stop calling and just email.k things up.I've asked for direct numbers to call agents, bypassing the main numbers and been told they don't give them out, so it seems the agents will only ever speak to you if they initiate it.
I don't doubt some people have had success in reaching agents, but it seems that the ones who are posting the adverts for the jobs I'm going for are not as easy to contact as others.
Have you ever considered reviewing your CV?
It may sound controversial but I am currently developing my own CV writing service website which goes live in around 4 weeks time. If you would like me to take a look at your CV and advise you of any recommendations I would be happy to do so.
Good luck.
It may sound controversial but I am currently developing my own CV writing service website which goes live in around 4 weeks time. If you would like me to take a look at your CV and advise you of any recommendations I would be happy to do so.
Good luck.
I really don't see the problem with recruitment types or companies not giving feedback.
If you don't hear, you didn't get put forward/interviewed/selected.
Any feedback you get is garbage anyway. The best you are likely to ever get is that someone better/cheaper was chosen.
They may really have rejected you for bad spelling, being black, being of childbearing age (and female), having a ponytail or any one of a million different reasons that they won't tell you.
If you don't hear, you didn't get put forward/interviewed/selected.
Any feedback you get is garbage anyway. The best you are likely to ever get is that someone better/cheaper was chosen.
They may really have rejected you for bad spelling, being black, being of childbearing age (and female), having a ponytail or any one of a million different reasons that they won't tell you.
DJRC said:
Im with Pod here. I always find a number for the agent and ring them. I pretty much always get through and have a chat. I regard this as essential because I know I know more about the job than the agent does and I need to know just exactly what he thinks he is advertising for and what is required not what he thinks is required. Remember agents and agencies are just like management...they need to be handled and managed correctly to make sure they dont fk things up.
I'm quite surprised that agents are advertising roles where they don't know what they are actually advertising for.k things up.Clearly different agencies operate in their own way, but we certainly aim to understand our clients needs at a high level, rather than just advertising jobs and "f
king things up" as you put it. There are obviously many cowboy agencies out there which is often detrimental to the industry as a whole. Vladikar said:
Have you ever considered reviewing your CV?
It may sound controversial but I am currently developing my own CV writing service website which goes live in around 4 weeks time. If you would like me to take a look at your CV and advise you of any recommendations I would be happy to do so.
Good luck.
I've looked at old workmates CV's as a favour and Rewrote them, with much more focus, and clarity, and without fail all have gone from 1 interview in 15 applications to 1 in 2 applications, and all three got back into employment within 4 weeks after 6 to 12 months looking. It may sound controversial but I am currently developing my own CV writing service website which goes live in around 4 weeks time. If you would like me to take a look at your CV and advise you of any recommendations I would be happy to do so.
Good luck.
I personally think they just needed someone to be hard on them, and force them to look at how they fit thier experience into what people want to hear. I also think that this hard approach with me saying "For F*ck Sake, you are letting yourself down" was the kind of motivation they needed.
I think that If they looked at mine they would wonder if I was the same person they worked with, but there isn't one lie or incorrect fact on it.
I'm an employer, not a recruitment agency, and have just done a round of recruitment advertising for a few posts. What interested me, when the completed application forms came back, was to see where the applicants said they had seen the post advertised - many of them had seen the job advertised on jobs boards/sites that I hadn't posted the job onto, and several more had named specific recruitment agencies, including some large very well known agencies. I didn't get a call from any of these agencies, offering me candidates for interview.
So, yes, I would agree that *some* agencies are touting jobs that they haven't been asked to recruit for.
And coming at it from a candidate's point of view, when I was applying for jobs through agencies a few years back, lord only knows how many CVs I submitted for posts and heard nothing back from them. Even agencies that I registered with, some of those I never heard from again. Personally, I have very little time for recruitment agencies now (which is possibly a shame?)
So, yes, I would agree that *some* agencies are touting jobs that they haven't been asked to recruit for.
And coming at it from a candidate's point of view, when I was applying for jobs through agencies a few years back, lord only knows how many CVs I submitted for posts and heard nothing back from them. Even agencies that I registered with, some of those I never heard from again. Personally, I have very little time for recruitment agencies now (which is possibly a shame?)
Ok, as much as it pains me I am going to try to redress the balance here.
I am a Recruitment Consultant - I am also a Recruitment Manager, who manages a team of consultants, so manage budgets, set targets, who we advertise with, what rec to rec's I use and so on - but that's by the by, rest assured I have worked in recruitment (specifically IT recruitment) for the past 15 years now - so have a fair understanding of the market, practices and so on.
Many of the foul practices that get rolled out by critics of the industry may have happened but if so would have been many years ago certainly not now and I will tell you for why.
Building a Database/Phishing for Candidates
Back in the lates 90's a recruitment agencies database was one of its core values/worth. Now with the likes of LinkedIn and scope to search various online job boards an agency doesn't even need a database (although they are still some use for sure). There are now so many specialised job boards, online databases, user groups and so on that a savvy consultant doesn't need to "phish" for candidates, merely follow their business nose and you will find any candidate for any role.
Fake Ads
Firstly advertising a role that an agency a) does not have permission to work and/or b) does not exist is actually unlawful. Its also a waste of time. For those of you who complain that you submit your CV for a role and never here back is because for every role advertised an agency can receive in excess of 400 applications. These applications all come in within 24 hours of the ad being placed on line so its virtually impossible to respond to everyone. For example you have 4 new roles in and you advertise all 4 roles, if we average out responses to say 200 applications per ad then your average consultant now has 800 applications - and you wonder why he/she does not respond back individualy. Were they to then a) respond to every applicant a response could take a number of days and b) by the time they responded to everyone that applied they would have missed the opportunity to fill the vacancy themselves.
By way of example going back 5 odd years ago, I used to ban my team from advertising any 2nd/3rd line desktop support roles and to use our database instead because if we advertised these types of roles we would receive so many applications so quickly that at the time it would knock over our email server!!!
Secondly (and I negotiate advertising for my team) those ad's are expensive. Advertising on JobServe for example (and with a huge ad spend) can come in at £12 per ad. Something like eFinancial can cost around £1500 per month and that's not including individual ad's, CW Jobs is £8 per ad, JobSite, £5 per ad. Its expensive (we tend to advertise around 200 roles per month) and as mentioned above unlawful to advertise roles that don't exist and given the access to online job board databases, the agencies own database, the consultants own network, what's the point of advertising to build a database in this day and age????
Asking for references/phishing for leads
Yep this goes on, but I prefer to think of it as networking which if you analyse the process for what it is then that's not too wide of the mark. Phishing is effectively requirements gathering, i.e. getting an understanding of the market in which the consultant intends working in. So typically that consultant needs to know: who is recruiting, why are they recruiting, when are they recruiting and what are they recruiting.
If you are asked about who you currently work for, are they recruiting, can I ask you for your manager's name, where have you been interviewing etc. then from a business perspective these questions are perfectly rational.
I think the problem with this process (specifically in IT but it may be the case in other industries), is that candidates have started to believe that the information being asked of them has some tangible worth and therefore a) shouldn't be given over easily if at all and/or b) believe that if they do provide the answers to these types of questions then their should be some net gain attached. If you view the bulletin boards of sites like ContractorUK, the contributors seem hell bent on never providing any of the above information out of what can only be described as "bloody mindness" almost as if its a game and they will not give that information. Ironically its that type of information sharing that enables agencies to have clients, which in turn provides roles for candidates such as those that are so keen not to divulge any contact info.
My team regularly require line manager names. Quite simply we get them by doing searches on LinkedIn and searching our database. Typing in various versions of IT Manager, Desktop Services Manager, Test Manager, Development Manager, Programme Manager, Head of PMO etc. generally yields hundreds of contacts.
Going Direct, we don't need agencies/middle men/hopeless sales types
Fine go direct, in some cases it may even strengthen your limited companies position on IR35 but unless your working for your mates consultancy or a small to medium sized business then working direct is very rarely viable. Firstly if you want to contract with BP Oil, LloydsTSB, SJ Berwin or similar sized organisations they will not allow you to go direct. Having an agency in place between BP and A.n.other Ltd covers a whole host of potential issues (that I cannot be bothered to go even more long winded about here). Secondly some of these larger organisations can take 90 days to pay (I know because I talk to our credit controllers on a regular basis who have ongoing battles with getting our multi-national clients to pay to agreed terms). Personally I would rather work through an agency that pays you within 14 days rather than waiting 3 months+ to get paid. Plus the agency does the chasing for payment rather than the indivdual contractor having to get involved with invoice payment chasing.
Huge margins beinng charged/ripping off the contractor from being able to realise a higher rate
Yep back in the mid 90's this was so rife that I regularly heard of my competitors charging contractors out at 45%. Crazy but true, personally I blame Y2K but anyway...forwards then to 2011 - most margins are now decided upon by HR and/or procurement, who have no problem telling agencies to get lost if they don't work to X. "X" is typically 15% for permanent and 10 to 15% for contract. Trust me unless you are working for some small digital media firm then the chances of you being ripped off on your hourly/daily rate by an agent are pretty remote.
I am a Recruitment Consultant - I am also a Recruitment Manager, who manages a team of consultants, so manage budgets, set targets, who we advertise with, what rec to rec's I use and so on - but that's by the by, rest assured I have worked in recruitment (specifically IT recruitment) for the past 15 years now - so have a fair understanding of the market, practices and so on.
Many of the foul practices that get rolled out by critics of the industry may have happened but if so would have been many years ago certainly not now and I will tell you for why.
Building a Database/Phishing for Candidates
Back in the lates 90's a recruitment agencies database was one of its core values/worth. Now with the likes of LinkedIn and scope to search various online job boards an agency doesn't even need a database (although they are still some use for sure). There are now so many specialised job boards, online databases, user groups and so on that a savvy consultant doesn't need to "phish" for candidates, merely follow their business nose and you will find any candidate for any role.
Fake Ads
Firstly advertising a role that an agency a) does not have permission to work and/or b) does not exist is actually unlawful. Its also a waste of time. For those of you who complain that you submit your CV for a role and never here back is because for every role advertised an agency can receive in excess of 400 applications. These applications all come in within 24 hours of the ad being placed on line so its virtually impossible to respond to everyone. For example you have 4 new roles in and you advertise all 4 roles, if we average out responses to say 200 applications per ad then your average consultant now has 800 applications - and you wonder why he/she does not respond back individualy. Were they to then a) respond to every applicant a response could take a number of days and b) by the time they responded to everyone that applied they would have missed the opportunity to fill the vacancy themselves.
By way of example going back 5 odd years ago, I used to ban my team from advertising any 2nd/3rd line desktop support roles and to use our database instead because if we advertised these types of roles we would receive so many applications so quickly that at the time it would knock over our email server!!!
Secondly (and I negotiate advertising for my team) those ad's are expensive. Advertising on JobServe for example (and with a huge ad spend) can come in at £12 per ad. Something like eFinancial can cost around £1500 per month and that's not including individual ad's, CW Jobs is £8 per ad, JobSite, £5 per ad. Its expensive (we tend to advertise around 200 roles per month) and as mentioned above unlawful to advertise roles that don't exist and given the access to online job board databases, the agencies own database, the consultants own network, what's the point of advertising to build a database in this day and age????
Asking for references/phishing for leads
Yep this goes on, but I prefer to think of it as networking which if you analyse the process for what it is then that's not too wide of the mark. Phishing is effectively requirements gathering, i.e. getting an understanding of the market in which the consultant intends working in. So typically that consultant needs to know: who is recruiting, why are they recruiting, when are they recruiting and what are they recruiting.
If you are asked about who you currently work for, are they recruiting, can I ask you for your manager's name, where have you been interviewing etc. then from a business perspective these questions are perfectly rational.
I think the problem with this process (specifically in IT but it may be the case in other industries), is that candidates have started to believe that the information being asked of them has some tangible worth and therefore a) shouldn't be given over easily if at all and/or b) believe that if they do provide the answers to these types of questions then their should be some net gain attached. If you view the bulletin boards of sites like ContractorUK, the contributors seem hell bent on never providing any of the above information out of what can only be described as "bloody mindness" almost as if its a game and they will not give that information. Ironically its that type of information sharing that enables agencies to have clients, which in turn provides roles for candidates such as those that are so keen not to divulge any contact info.
My team regularly require line manager names. Quite simply we get them by doing searches on LinkedIn and searching our database. Typing in various versions of IT Manager, Desktop Services Manager, Test Manager, Development Manager, Programme Manager, Head of PMO etc. generally yields hundreds of contacts.
Going Direct, we don't need agencies/middle men/hopeless sales types
Fine go direct, in some cases it may even strengthen your limited companies position on IR35 but unless your working for your mates consultancy or a small to medium sized business then working direct is very rarely viable. Firstly if you want to contract with BP Oil, LloydsTSB, SJ Berwin or similar sized organisations they will not allow you to go direct. Having an agency in place between BP and A.n.other Ltd covers a whole host of potential issues (that I cannot be bothered to go even more long winded about here). Secondly some of these larger organisations can take 90 days to pay (I know because I talk to our credit controllers on a regular basis who have ongoing battles with getting our multi-national clients to pay to agreed terms). Personally I would rather work through an agency that pays you within 14 days rather than waiting 3 months+ to get paid. Plus the agency does the chasing for payment rather than the indivdual contractor having to get involved with invoice payment chasing.
Huge margins beinng charged/ripping off the contractor from being able to realise a higher rate
Yep back in the mid 90's this was so rife that I regularly heard of my competitors charging contractors out at 45%. Crazy but true, personally I blame Y2K but anyway...forwards then to 2011 - most margins are now decided upon by HR and/or procurement, who have no problem telling agencies to get lost if they don't work to X. "X" is typically 15% for permanent and 10 to 15% for contract. Trust me unless you are working for some small digital media firm then the chances of you being ripped off on your hourly/daily rate by an agent are pretty remote.
Jackleman said:
V8mate said:
They're probably fake jobs and the consultants are just trawling for CVs.
This ^^Most recruitment firms I have dealt with are a shower of! It's a shame as must reflect on the few decent ones
Here's a poser for you. I recently advertised a PM role, came in from a client, team couldn't think of anyone off the top of their heads so stuck it online to see the response, mainly because it had some experience I wasn't familiar with and was busy with other things. 153 responses, in 2 days.
Now tell me what would you do in that situation? Are you going to ring 153 people? Of course you're not.
an interesting point to make also was that only 8, yes 8 of them actually had the relevant experience. The rest just saw PM job and applied.
Its not as easy as everyone makes out, especially in the market at the moment. If you want a response, pick the phone up and call the agent. If he doesnt answer, call again, he's probably reading 150 cv's that aren't relevant.
getting a job is quite difficult, firstly there's the double glazing salesmen recruitment "consultants" who know little to nothing about their subject matter then you have to get through HR who dont know much more than the recruitment bods before you get to people who know what they are talking about.
after 15 years in IT, I still get asked very basic stupid questions, recruitment consultants hanging up if you dont give them leads, certain buzz words i.e Windows 2008 rather than certified in all Windows releases etc blah blah blah
I've yet to speak to or meet a recruitment consultant that is worthy of their title and just treat looking for a job as a numbers game, otherwise I'd be on the dole / have pulled all my hair out
after 15 years in IT, I still get asked very basic stupid questions, recruitment consultants hanging up if you dont give them leads, certain buzz words i.e Windows 2008 rather than certified in all Windows releases etc blah blah blah
I've yet to speak to or meet a recruitment consultant that is worthy of their title and just treat looking for a job as a numbers game, otherwise I'd be on the dole / have pulled all my hair out
TIGA84 said:
Here's a poser for you. I recently advertised a PM role, came in from a client, team couldn't think of anyone off the top of their heads so stuck it online to see the response, mainly because it had some experience I wasn't familiar with and was busy with other things. 153 responses, in 2 days.
Now tell me what would you do in that situation? Are you going to ring 153 people? Of course you're not.
an interesting point to make also was that only 8, yes 8 of them actually had the relevant experience. The rest just saw PM job and applied.
Its not as easy as everyone makes out, especially in the market at the moment. If you want a response, pick the phone up and call the agent. If he doesnt answer, call again, he's probably reading 150 cv's that aren't relevant.
Can I just check... you're not asking us to feel in any way sorry for recruitment consultants, are you?Now tell me what would you do in that situation? Are you going to ring 153 people? Of course you're not.
an interesting point to make also was that only 8, yes 8 of them actually had the relevant experience. The rest just saw PM job and applied.
Its not as easy as everyone makes out, especially in the market at the moment. If you want a response, pick the phone up and call the agent. If he doesnt answer, call again, he's probably reading 150 cv's that aren't relevant.
mickymellon1 said:
getting a job is quite difficult, firstly there's the double glazing salesmen recruitment "consultants" who know little to nothing about their subject matter then you have to get through HR who dont know much more than the recruitment bods before you get to people who know what they are talking about.
after 15 years in IT, I still get asked very basic stupid questions, recruitment consultants hanging up if you dont give them leads, certain buzz words i.e Windows 2008 rather than certified in all Windows releases etc blah blah blah
I've yet to speak to or meet a recruitment consultant that is worthy of their title and just treat looking for a job as a numbers game, otherwise I'd be on the dole / have pulled all my hair out
Must be all you IT monkeys who just apply for any ol' job, just on the off chance .... after 15 years in IT, I still get asked very basic stupid questions, recruitment consultants hanging up if you dont give them leads, certain buzz words i.e Windows 2008 rather than certified in all Windows releases etc blah blah blah
I've yet to speak to or meet a recruitment consultant that is worthy of their title and just treat looking for a job as a numbers game, otherwise I'd be on the dole / have pulled all my hair out
I've NEVER advertised a job I don't have, never trawled for CVs for "fake" jobs.
mondeoman said:
mickymellon1 said:
getting a job is quite difficult, firstly there's the double glazing salesmen recruitment "consultants" who know little to nothing about their subject matter then you have to get through HR who dont know much more than the recruitment bods before you get to people who know what they are talking about.
after 15 years in IT, I still get asked very basic stupid questions, recruitment consultants hanging up if you dont give them leads, certain buzz words i.e Windows 2008 rather than certified in all Windows releases etc blah blah blah
I've yet to speak to or meet a recruitment consultant that is worthy of their title and just treat looking for a job as a numbers game, otherwise I'd be on the dole / have pulled all my hair out
Must be all you IT monkeys who just apply for any ol' job, just on the off chance .... after 15 years in IT, I still get asked very basic stupid questions, recruitment consultants hanging up if you dont give them leads, certain buzz words i.e Windows 2008 rather than certified in all Windows releases etc blah blah blah
I've yet to speak to or meet a recruitment consultant that is worthy of their title and just treat looking for a job as a numbers game, otherwise I'd be on the dole / have pulled all my hair out
I've NEVER advertised a job I don't have, never trawled for CVs for "fake" jobs.
V8mate said:
TIGA84 said:
Here's a poser for you. I recently advertised a PM role, came in from a client, team couldn't think of anyone off the top of their heads so stuck it online to see the response, mainly because it had some experience I wasn't familiar with and was busy with other things. 153 responses, in 2 days.
Now tell me what would you do in that situation? Are you going to ring 153 people? Of course you're not.
an interesting point to make also was that only 8, yes 8 of them actually had the relevant experience. The rest just saw PM job and applied.
Its not as easy as everyone makes out, especially in the market at the moment. If you want a response, pick the phone up and call the agent. If he doesnt answer, call again, he's probably reading 150 cv's that aren't relevant.
Can I just check... you're not asking us to feel in any way sorry for recruitment consultants, are you?Now tell me what would you do in that situation? Are you going to ring 153 people? Of course you're not.
an interesting point to make also was that only 8, yes 8 of them actually had the relevant experience. The rest just saw PM job and applied.
Its not as easy as everyone makes out, especially in the market at the moment. If you want a response, pick the phone up and call the agent. If he doesnt answer, call again, he's probably reading 150 cv's that aren't relevant.
Gassing Station | Jobs & Employment Matters | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff