E60 M5 vs F10 M5 - experiences?
Discussion
Cheburator mk2 said:
StuH said:
My e39 M5 was the most troublesome of the lot, 2 VANOS bank replacements! Thankfully under warranty. Plus continual issues with MAF sensors.
Although I should add that I have zero mechanical skills, but then VANOS replacement isn't a job you'd take on lightly.
For sure, but on the E60/1 you have the added "bonus" of iDrive, SMGIII, EDC, Vanos, MAFs. Lambda Sensors, Active Seats, Panoramic Sunroofs, Adaptive lights, HUD requiring OEM Windscren etc... And I would imagine the F10 is even more complicated Although I should add that I have zero mechanical skills, but then VANOS replacement isn't a job you'd take on lightly.
As a E61 owner I thought I would add my tuppence. I drove the F10 a few months ago and enjoyed it. Sounded great on tickover (anything is better than the S85 on tickover as it sounds like a dishwasher) and the feel of the cockpit is way nicer than the E6x. Much more driver oriented, nice comfortable seats and a great driving position. The iDrive is way better too. It's what I call logical progression and it should be better than the system it replaces.
In terms of drive, it's quick, measurably quicker than the E6x, it feels quicker and is quicker but I'm not sure I like the power delivery, it's not as linear as the NA V10 and the twin turbo's are a little laggy in the way that it is delivered. I'm sure I'd get used to it in time and learn to love it.
Onto the Box, the DCT box on the F10 is very quick, I thought the SMG once learned would take some beating but it felt quicker and once again measurably, it was smoother too, no neck breaking or moans from the missus like she does when I hit the M button and floor it. It's a very smooth change in the F10.
So from the above you can see that I liked it, but I didn't fall in love with it like the E6x. It felt too refined and not raw enough like the E6x is. The HUD was awful, I wanted the nice rainbow colours and clarity but I got a dull display with grim colours. The styling of the F10 left me underwhelmed too and it's unnecessarily big for me. Why make it the size of an old 7 series?
In a nutshell I'd have one as a daily driver but would not go out of my way to replace the E61 which for me is just awesome. For one of two negatives of the SMG it really does take alot of beating and the engine is just EPIC. Once under WOT and in the right rev range it is pretty much untouchable.
In terms of drive, it's quick, measurably quicker than the E6x, it feels quicker and is quicker but I'm not sure I like the power delivery, it's not as linear as the NA V10 and the twin turbo's are a little laggy in the way that it is delivered. I'm sure I'd get used to it in time and learn to love it.
Onto the Box, the DCT box on the F10 is very quick, I thought the SMG once learned would take some beating but it felt quicker and once again measurably, it was smoother too, no neck breaking or moans from the missus like she does when I hit the M button and floor it. It's a very smooth change in the F10.
So from the above you can see that I liked it, but I didn't fall in love with it like the E6x. It felt too refined and not raw enough like the E6x is. The HUD was awful, I wanted the nice rainbow colours and clarity but I got a dull display with grim colours. The styling of the F10 left me underwhelmed too and it's unnecessarily big for me. Why make it the size of an old 7 series?
In a nutshell I'd have one as a daily driver but would not go out of my way to replace the E61 which for me is just awesome. For one of two negatives of the SMG it really does take alot of beating and the engine is just EPIC. Once under WOT and in the right rev range it is pretty much untouchable.
StuH said:
My e39 M5 was the most troublesome of the lot, 2 VANOS bank replacements! Thankfully under warranty. Plus continual issues with MAF sensors.
Although I should add that I have zero mechanical skills, but then VANOS replacement isn't a job you'd take on lightly.
Although I should add that I have zero mechanical skills, but then VANOS replacement isn't a job you'd take on lightly.
VANOS can be sorted out relatively cheaply if you know some indy mechanic (there are lots of DIYs on m5board) and if you supercharge it you get the MAFless tune so they are no worry too.
For 15K pounds you can get mint E39 and for another 10K supercharge it together with intercooler and couple of other mods which should be good for 600 HP(google for RK S2 kit which proved to be very reliable). If you are not too fond of modern look&gadgets that would do the job.
Interesting question this. I was fortunate enough to get invited to M Sports day at Goodwood with Tiff and an F10 M5 and E92 M3 and my conclusions were that the M3 was quite a lot more satisfying to drive. Its noisier certainly but usefully more agile, quite fast enough and in this case fitted with an identical , and very good DCT.
i think as a daily driver the F10 would be a better car. Bigger, quieter and more comfortable. Just don't think its ever going to be as much fun to "rag" as any M3.
Personally think the E60 gearbox is rubbish, that and the fact its rather ordinary sounding at low speeds goes against it. I'd always opt for an E90/91/92 M3 over one. Especially in 4 door form its all the car you'd ever need.
Incidentally the revelation of the Goodwood day was the Alpina B3 GT3. Wow, beautifully sorted , special feeling car. best of the lot IMHO
i think as a daily driver the F10 would be a better car. Bigger, quieter and more comfortable. Just don't think its ever going to be as much fun to "rag" as any M3.
Personally think the E60 gearbox is rubbish, that and the fact its rather ordinary sounding at low speeds goes against it. I'd always opt for an E90/91/92 M3 over one. Especially in 4 door form its all the car you'd ever need.
Incidentally the revelation of the Goodwood day was the Alpina B3 GT3. Wow, beautifully sorted , special feeling car. best of the lot IMHO
Edited by Dblue on Wednesday 10th October 15:31
Edited by Dblue on Wednesday 10th October 15:32
Dblue said:
.
Incidentally the revelation of the Goodwood day was the Alpins B6. Wow, beautifully sorted , special feeling car. best of the lot IMHO
Fine wine, fine carsIncidentally the revelation of the Goodwood day was the Alpins B6. Wow, beautifully sorted , special feeling car. best of the lot IMHO
http://www.alpina-automobiles.com/en/alpina-compan...
Dblue said:
Personally think the E60 gearbox is rubbish, that and the fact its rather ordinary sounding at low speeds goes against it. I'd always opt for an E90/91/92 M3 over one. Especially in 4 door form its all the car you'd ever need.
Got to love it when someone comes in here and categorically states something, which is so removed from the truth it is unreal... The M3 is cramped at the back, given that both my wife's and mine families are rather tall, the M3 does not fit the bill. Shall we talk about the plastic fantastic interrior of the 3-series v.s. the full leather option on the M5? Or the better at any level equipment of the E60?
Also, I forgot, we actually enjoy the outdoors, but we also have a 2.5yrs old toddler. You try and fit proper bodyboards, a buggy, a child carrier and luggage for a week in a M3. Or a full set of sails for a 35ft racing yacht... Good luck.
Not a bad car per se, but for me totally useless, oh, and slower...
Cheburator mk2 said:
Dblue said:
Personally think the E60 gearbox is rubbish, that and the fact its rather ordinary sounding at low speeds goes against it. I'd always opt for an E90/91/92 M3 over one. Especially in 4 door form its all the car you'd ever need.
Got to love it when someone comes in here and categorically states something, which is so removed from the truth it is unreal... The M3 is cramped at the back, given that both my wife's and mine families are rather tall, the M3 does not fit the bill. Shall we talk about the plastic fantastic interrior of the 3-series v.s. the full leather option on the M5? Or the better at any level equipment of the E60?
Also, I forgot, we actually enjoy the outdoors, but we also have a 2.5yrs old toddler. You try and fit proper bodyboards, a buggy, a child carrier and luggage for a week in a M3. Or a full set of sails for a 35ft racing yacht... Good luck.
Not a bad car per se, but for me totally useless, oh, and slower...
Cheburator mk2 said:
Got to love it when someone comes in here and categorically states something, which is so removed from the truth it is unreal...
The M3 is cramped at the back, given that both my wife's and mine families are rather tall, the M3 does not fit the bill. Shall we talk about the plastic fantastic interrior of the 3-series v.s. the full leather option on the M5? Or the better at any level equipment of the E60?
Also, I forgot, we actually enjoy the outdoors, but we also have a 2.5yrs old toddler. You try and fit proper bodyboards, a buggy, a child carrier and luggage for a week in a M3. Or a full set of sails for a 35ft racing yacht... Good luck.
Not a bad car per se, but for me totally useless, oh, and slower...
Well you obviously don't "love it" Apologies for having an opinion based on trying 2 of the cars back to back on the same day.The M3 is cramped at the back, given that both my wife's and mine families are rather tall, the M3 does not fit the bill. Shall we talk about the plastic fantastic interrior of the 3-series v.s. the full leather option on the M5? Or the better at any level equipment of the E60?
Also, I forgot, we actually enjoy the outdoors, but we also have a 2.5yrs old toddler. You try and fit proper bodyboards, a buggy, a child carrier and luggage for a week in a M3. Or a full set of sails for a 35ft racing yacht... Good luck.
Not a bad car per se, but for me totally useless, oh, and slower...
Since when has the phrase " I think" translate as " I am stating a fact"
The fact that your needs mean the additional space the M5 offers worthwhile is fine, no problem with that, but the M5 is more expensive to run, occupies a huge space on the road especially when it's sideways and has a performance advantage only at very high speeds. I would say that lots of families could get by just fine with a 4 door 3 series as they sell quite a lot of them. I am talking about E90s here not E46s, they are usefully bigger.
My personal opinion is that the SMG box is not very good. If you reckon that's wrong then your entitled to your opinion. BMWs seems to be the same as mine as they binned it for an immeasurably superior DCT as soon as it was available.
Cheburator mk2 said:
Dblue said:
Personally think the E60 gearbox is rubbish, that and the fact its rather ordinary sounding at low speeds goes against it. I'd always opt for an E90/91/92 M3 over one. Especially in 4 door form its all the car you'd ever need.
Got to love it when someone comes in here and categorically states something, which is so removed from the truth it is unreal... The M3 is cramped at the back, given that both my wife's and mine families are rather tall, the M3 does not fit the bill. Shall we talk about the plastic fantastic interrior of the 3-series v.s. the full leather option on the M5? Or the better at any level equipment of the E60?
Also, I forgot, we actually enjoy the outdoors, but we also have a 2.5yrs old toddler. You try and fit proper bodyboards, a buggy, a child carrier and luggage for a week in a M3. Or a full set of sails for a 35ft racing yacht... Good luck.
Not a bad car per se, but for me totally useless, oh, and slower...
Dblue,
I was having a dig at "the M3 is all the car you will ever need" because it is not.
Of course you are entitled to have an opinion, it was the categorical nature of yours which got me going.
And for the record, I really really wanted to like the V8 M3, but I could not. In fact I tried it both in normal guise and at a Palmer Sports day, and the end result was that I really wanted my old E46 M3 or an E61 M5...
As for those who suggested an X5 - with the risk of offending owners on here - it does not offer more space or superior driving dynamics and frankly around my neck of the woods is common as muck. The E61 M5 is a good honest car - it can carry a lot of stuff and yet be entertaining, the X5 can only do the former...
I was having a dig at "the M3 is all the car you will ever need" because it is not.
Of course you are entitled to have an opinion, it was the categorical nature of yours which got me going.
And for the record, I really really wanted to like the V8 M3, but I could not. In fact I tried it both in normal guise and at a Palmer Sports day, and the end result was that I really wanted my old E46 M3 or an E61 M5...
As for those who suggested an X5 - with the risk of offending owners on here - it does not offer more space or superior driving dynamics and frankly around my neck of the woods is common as muck. The E61 M5 is a good honest car - it can carry a lot of stuff and yet be entertaining, the X5 can only do the former...
Dblue said:
Personally think the E60 gearbox is rubbish, that and the fact its rather ordinary sounding at low speeds goes against it. I'd always opt for an E90/91/92 M3 over one. Especially in 4 door form its all the car you'd ever need.
The gearbox is the reason I never bought an E60 M5 - just didn't like it.But they are all (E60/1 M5, F10 M5 and E90/2 M3) great cars in the scheme of things and we are lucky to have the opportunity to experience them before they are consigned to history.
They all have compromises though - as well as the gearbox, the fuel range of the E60/1 would get on my nerves. E90/2 for me is now compromised on space, otherwise I'd still have one. F10 perhaps too accomplished and not as exciting as the other two.
For me the M3 is great as a track tool and as a non family man car but I wouldn't own one because I don't think they are quick enough. Special at lower speeds but the appeal for me of the M5 is the blistering performance at the higher speeds. I love the SMG box but can understand why it doesn't appeal to all. Once "learned" it's F1 tech for the road and will not be bettered for involvement.
Contigo said:
I love the SMG box but can understand why it doesn't appeal to all. Once "learned" it's F1 tech for the road and will not be bettered for involvement.
SMG got on my nerves, even when "learned", and the manual gearbox in my 911 blew it away in terms of involvement.The DCT in the F10 has equal involvement to the SMG in manual mode. But it has also mastered the art of the smooth change when in auto, unlike the dismal, jerky & confused attempt made by the SMG.
Contigo said:
For me the M3 is great as a track tool and as a non family man car but I wouldn't own one because I don't think they are quick enough. Special at lower speeds but the appeal for me of the M5 is the blistering performance at the higher speeds. I love the SMG box but can understand why it doesn't appeal to all. Once "learned" it's F1 tech for the road and will not be bettered for involvement.
I think that exposure to similar F1 tech automated manual systems of similar type would leave you wondering why the SMG box is so flawed. My point was not that paddle shift boxes per se are bad , compared to a manual for example, just that the BMW SMG is not a very good example.Some interaction and learning the characteristics are good things I agree but the box for all its settings just never quite gets it right.
The performance the V10 delivers is addictive though and i can quite understand the appeal of that. The F10 is even faster but not as exciting in it's delivery. It doesn't have the explosive high revving nature of the E60 and thats always more fun in a "sporting" car
ChrisBuer said:
Do they offer the F10 with a manual gearbox, or it is DCT only?
I've never driven one (would like to) but I really only like manual gearboxes. The DCT e92 M3 that I drove recently was OK, but I would rather have had a manual box to stir.
Think only the yanks get a manual boxI've never driven one (would like to) but I really only like manual gearboxes. The DCT e92 M3 that I drove recently was OK, but I would rather have had a manual box to stir.
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