BMW E46 M3, what is it to you, iconic, overrated, epic etc.?

[popeyewhite]

Nanook said:

popeyewhite said:

Well after two rides he was impressed enough to call it a "masterpiece".

I've never even had a ride in a Spitfire, and I feel pretty confident in saying that engine was a 'masterpiece'.

Then your confidence would be largely misplaced. The original Merlin engine wasn't particularly good and was prone to faults. In fact it wasn't until Packard got hold of it and began to iron out some of those faults that it became more reliable, as a workhorse fitted to a number of fighters and bombers.

[popeyewhite]

Nanook said:

How the fk would you know, you've never flown one?!

You see the point though?

Similarly the chap under discussion hasn't driven an E46 M3.

[trackdemon]

Interesting time to bump an E46 M3 thread, given the market has moved a fair bit in the last 4 years. Seems they're becoming quite the modern classic, with values up since the OP, and likely to continue that way - especially for standard manual coupe's (SMG cab's cheapest out there). Lots of uninformed negative talk about 'not being fast' 'no steering feel' 'boring to drive' in posts seemingly from folks who've never driven one, or nothing more than around the block. But I guess that's PH nowadays.

FWIW I've owned my Phoenix Yellow '02 since August '16, put probably 12k on it including a 2.5k euro trip, a couple of trackdays, lots of weekend drives including Wales a couple of times. This is the E46 M3's sweet spot I think: occasional track car (yes it's too heavy/not focused enough to be a season long weapon), but for fast road driving in all conditions it's brilliant. Drive it slowly at low revs, and it feels like a nicely equipped 3 series with a special engine - no bad thing. But get it onto deserted fun A roads, and it's a blast; quick enough, beautifully balanced chassis, plenty of feedback (take note anyone thinking E46 steering is dead, yet promoting the A45!), lovely sounding engine... it's fun. Part of the trick is grip levels well matched to the torque/power output - you don't have to drive at crazy speeds to enjoy tweaking the attitude of the car with throttle/steering/brakes. It's a car that reveals it's talents over a good few miles, so it's easy to see how a quick passenger ride or short drive doesn't leave the same impression the journo's got back in the day, and many owners have now.

For some that's simply not a driving style that appeals, and that's just fine. I've driven a few turbo-nutter cars, and whilst I can see the appeal in STi/EVO, it's not really for me. If we all liked the same thing then we'd all buy much the same thing, and forums would be a place for us all to slap each other on the back for choosing well.

[daveco]

I've test driven so many E46 M3s in a bid to buying but I just couldn't justify it as being special enough every time.

The E46 325/330 don't feel as cumbersome. The steering is more communicative/direct in the facelift coupe models too.

Then when you move onto the E92s and you realise how much better they are to drive in just about every aspect.

I found the 335 more of a hoot to drive and the chassis alone with 19 inch wheels on good tarmac (if you can find it!) is phenomenal. It also sounds better at anything below 5k rpm, i.e. 95% of the time you drive it.

[Joscal]

daveco said:

I've test driven so many E46 M3s in a bid to buying but I just couldn't justify it as being special enough every time.

The E46 325/330 don't feel as cumbersome. The steering is more communicative/direct in the facelift coupe models too.

Then when you move onto the E92s and you realise how much better they are to drive in just about every aspect.

I found the 335 more of a hoot to drive and the chassis alone with 19 inch wheels on good tarmac (if you can find it!) is phenomenal. It also sounds better at anything below 5k rpm, i.e. 95% of the time you drive it.

Really? So bmw developed the runt of the litter to be just a bit better than the M3. I very much doubt it. I’ve had a few Ms and I can assure u a 335 wasn’t remotely close.

[Fastdruid]

matthias73 said:

popeyewhite said:

Limpet said:

Only ever had a couple of fast passenger rides in them, but I've been impressed both times. That engine is a masterpiece.

I disagree but anyway you can tell that yet you've never driven one?

You don't need to be driving to be impressed by the noise, acceleration and atmosphere created by an engine. If anything, it's the one thing you can be impressed by.

It's not a comment on the M3 but every car feels faster when you are a passenger than when you are a driver.

It is entirely possible for someone to be blown away by a car as a passenger and yet underwhelmed by it as a driver.

[popeyewhite]

Nanook said:

popeyewhite said:

Similarly the chap under discussion hasn't driven an E46 M3.

Yeah... I'm not sure you're 'getting' this.

Irony.

[matthias73]

Fastdruid said:

It's not a comment on the M3 but every car feels faster when you are a passenger than when you are a driver.

It is entirely possible for someone to be blown away by a car as a passenger and yet underwhelmed by it as a driver.

Indeed, it's sometimes nice to be driven in your own car. You forget the imperfections and just relax.

That said, the m3 engine really is very nice. I own a 330i myself and would suggest it's a good chassis for an excellent all rounder, but those who expect too much will be disappointed. After all, a great all rounder is by design compromised.

[Joscal]

matthias73 said:

Indeed, it's sometimes nice to be driven in your own car. You forget the imperfections and just relax.

That said, the m3 engine really is very nice. I own a 330i myself and would suggest it's a good chassis for an excellent all rounder, but those who expect too much will be disappointed. After all, a great all rounder is by design compromised.

Bmw were ahead of the game then as they still might well be.

[e30m3Mark]

Nanook said:

popeyewhite said:

Well after two rides he was impressed enough to call it a "masterpiece".

I've never even had a ride in a Spitfire, and I feel pretty confident in saying that engine was a 'masterpiece'.

Same engine as a Herald and wasn't great to be honest.

[iSore]

e30m3Mark said:

Same engine as a Herald and wasn't great to be honest.

12/50 or 13/60?

[nitrodave]

cerb4.5lee said:

tejr said:

cerb4.5lee said:

I think my 200sx spoilt me more than I realised at the time in fairness, and then I went into my TVR which had a really strong power to weight ratio so it always felt quick.

Over the years I've realised that the high rev N/A engine doesn't really suit me(I didn't really get on with either my Z4M or E92 M3). I do understand the high regard in which the N/A M engines are held for sure but they're not really my cup of tea(for the road at least).

I think I must be a lazy driver at heart and I just can't be bothered revving an engine to death to get the rewards. The idea of a Honda VTEC N/A engine would bring me out in a cold sweat!

I have to say you have an amazing taste in cars

I similarly went from 200sx --> (S2000) --> TVR Cerbera --> E92 M3

I too feel the 200SX spoilt me even with 'just' 280bhp.. it was light (compared to metal 10 years younger), had a huge midrange punch. At the time I remember having some fun with an e39 M5 and it not getting away from me. At the time I just assumed he wasn't going for it, but the more I think about it, I think he was. To the point where I jump into cars that people rave on about being fast and I think.. "no its not"..

The E92 is faster at the top end no doubt.. but the 200 would surge forward in any gear and any speed as long as you were above 2krpm. The Cerbera only really managed to do the same (in a faster more instant way) because it was light.

I had a 200sx s14a for 7 years from 2005 and there was indeed something very special about them. I think that's the longest I've owned a car and I still regret selling it.

I only did stage 1 stuff, so intercooler, 1 bar of boost, exhaust and walbro but it was seriously quick and heaps of fun. I had it well off the clock on a french motorway and it would red line in top gear easily.

Also great fun to get sidways

The sr20 might not sound the best, but it is one of the most tuneable and reliable engines i've had.

[cerb4.5lee]

nitrodave said:

cerb4.5lee said:

tejr said:

cerb4.5lee said:

I think my 200sx spoilt me more than I realised at the time in fairness, and then I went into my TVR which had a really strong power to weight ratio so it always felt quick.

Over the years I've realised that the high rev N/A engine doesn't really suit me(I didn't really get on with either my Z4M or E92 M3). I do understand the high regard in which the N/A M engines are held for sure but they're not really my cup of tea(for the road at least).

I think I must be a lazy driver at heart and I just can't be bothered revving an engine to death to get the rewards. The idea of a Honda VTEC N/A engine would bring me out in a cold sweat!

I have to say you have an amazing taste in cars

I similarly went from 200sx --> (S2000) --> TVR Cerbera --> E92 M3

I too feel the 200SX spoilt me even with 'just' 280bhp.. it was light (compared to metal 10 years younger), had a huge midrange punch. At the time I remember having some fun with an e39 M5 and it not getting away from me. At the time I just assumed he wasn't going for it, but the more I think about it, I think he was. To the point where I jump into cars that people rave on about being fast and I think.. "no its not"..

The E92 is faster at the top end no doubt.. but the 200 would surge forward in any gear and any speed as long as you were above 2krpm. The Cerbera only really managed to do the same (in a faster more instant way) because it was light.

I had a 200sx s14a for 7 years from 2005 and there was indeed something very special about them. I think that's the longest I've owned a car and I still regret selling it.

I only did stage 1 stuff, so intercooler, 1 bar of boost, exhaust and walbro but it was seriously quick and heaps of fun. I had it well off the clock on a french motorway and it would red line in top gear easily.

Also great fun to get sidways

The sr20 might not sound the best, but it is one of the most tuneable and reliable engines i've had.

Nice one!

I did similar stage 1 stuff to mine and it was a quick car and I had quite a few scalps with other cars that didn't expect it to be as quick as it was. Funnily enough I didn't have any trouble keeping up with E46 M3's either.

The way it shifted above a ton often shocked me considering it was only 2 Litre Turbo. Removing the cats was one of the best things I did and it used to flame for England! It scorched the rear bumper pretty bad as well!

I had it for 4 years from 2002 to 2006 and only got rid to scratch the massive TVR itch I had. Even on the way to collect my TVR I was questioning why I was getting rid of it because I still loved it to bits.

I still wish I had it now and its been easily the most fun car I've had, yet they're really under rated cars and I think unless you've had one you don't really get them.

[H20DJY]

I bought one 2 years ago, planning to run it for the summer to get one out of my system before I bought a 911. Took it to Lemans and a trip to the 'Ring and I couldn't part with it. Its an incredible car IMHO, as a road car, or modified for track. It will be hard to part with it when I finally sell!

[SidewaysSi]

How much do you need to chuck at one to make it half decent? £5-8K?

[trackdemon]

SidewaysSi said:

How much do you need to chuck at one to make it half decent? £5-8K?

Define half decent?

[trackdemon]

Joscal said:

daveco said:

I've test driven so many E46 M3s

Really? So bmw developed the runt of the litter to be just a bit better than the M3. I very much doubt it. I’ve had a few Ms and I can assure u a 335 wasn’t remotely close.

In bold. Enough said

[SidewaysSi]

trackdemon said:

SidewaysSi said:

How much do you need to chuck at one to make it half decent? £5-8K?

Define half decent?

Not sure why the rolleyes as surely a standard car with nothing done to it is going to fall apart as a driver's car.

-New springs /dampers (anything original will be past its best by now)
-Decent gear change
- Lightweight flywheel
- Proper brakes
- Faster and more feelsome steering
- Boot floor strengthening
- Perhaps harder bushes

Sure there is plenty more but I would have thought this is the minimum needed to bring an M3 picked up from the classifieds to being semi decent to drive?

[trackdemon]

SidewaysSi said:

Not sure why the rolleyes as surely a standard car with nothing done to it is going to fall apart as a driver's car.

I bow to your knowledge. I definitely didn't enjoy driving my standard M3 this morning. I'm just going to set fire to it

[Cheburator mk2]

trackdemon said:

I bow to your knowledge. I definitely didn't enjoy driving my standard M3 this morning. I'm just going to set fire to it

Last year I bought my 3d M3 as I wanted to stop putting on the miles on the GT3 CS. For a change it's a totally standard 2003 SMG car. It is so rubbish that in the last 12mths I have done four Welsh hoons, two Yorkshire hoons, two Bedford trackdays and I am about to do a cheeky weekend at the Ring.

I tell you - utter rubbish them M3s...

P.S I hope you still have the NSX - still remember the ride back in 2003 when the V-Tec kicked in yo! My 928S2 Auto has morphed into a 928GTS Manual since then...