BMW E46 M3, what is it to you, iconic, overrated, epic etc.?

[klan8456]

Some interesting views in this thread. I will say that nowadays the market does seem to be split between those examples which are utter rubbish, and those which have been well maintained. More issues have come about in the last 4 years since this thread was started as well - VANOS (cam bolts, sprockets, solenoid packs, seals, oil pump disc etc...), rod bearings, head gasket and the rear axle carrier panel / boot floor / “subframe” (a misnomer).

The understanding of how to permanently fix the RACP issues has also evolved. Plating is no longer seen as being enough - witness the work of Redish Motorsport with respect to the internal RACP welds.

As a stock car I can’t imagine they would be too exciting. Mine is set up as effectively a “M3 RS”:

Half cage (rear seats removed)
Sparco Pro 2000s
6 point harnesses (plus 3 points for road use)
RACP brace
RACP plating
Poly bushes throughout
KW Clubsports
Adjustable top mounts
Rear camber arms
KW sway bars
Purple tag steering rack
Solid steering coupler
CSL wheels
Pilot Sport 4Ss
Alcon Extreme 6 pots front
Pagid RS-29s all ‘round
Braided brake and clutch lines
CSL- style carbon air box
Wayne Schofield / Chip Wizards custom remap (360hp)
Full Supersprint exhaust
Royal alcantara steering wheel
Short shifter
M Performance gear knob

... and probably loads of other stuff I’ve forgotten about. It also has CSL replica front bumper, rear diffuser and boot lid from the previous owner. It’s maintained to within an inch of its life (oil every 3k kms, Inspection II every year regardless of mileage etc). I’d consider it to be one of the better examples out there for a dual purpose fast road / track day car.

Removing weight makes them come alive, as does a shorter final drive.

Edited by klan8456 on Saturday 7th April 20:29

[e30m3Mark]

klan8456 said:

Removing weight makes them come alive, as does a shorter final drive.

Edited by klan8456 on Saturday 7th April 20:29

[derin100]

hondansx said:

derin100 said:

Sorry, but I have to disagree! They do not feel like a "totally different car" at all!

And you also mention "lap-times" which is part of my point! The vast majority of either (M3s or CSLs) never see a track and even if they do the vast majority of drivers couldn't do justice to either anyway. For the most part it's just macho-posturing and dreaming IMHO>

Think you are being very unfair to M3 owners there. I'd argue an E46 M3 is 'ring weapon of choice. The whole point of them is that they have good chassis balance and now spiky turbos to worry about.

There are plenty of CSL owners that have owned or still own faster cars and still have a CSL in the garage, which is clearly telling when you consider they are up to 6x more than a regular M3. For me, they're worth it.

I see from your profile that you have certainly owned some great cars and you certainly enjoy the track...but have you owned and lived with either an E46 M3 or CSL?

I suspect many of the owners that you cite who have faster cars but still have a CSL in the garage do it not because they think or truly believe that they are six times better driving cars than standard M3 Coupes but for the simple fact that they have been 'hyped' to six times the monetary value and thus see them as 'investments'.

(I have similar things in my garage that I don't necessarily see as great driver's cars etc. but that I keep for their potential monetary value.)

[H20DJY]

SidewaysSi said:

How much do you need to chuck at one to make it half decent? £5-8K?

That's a fairly open ended question. You could buy a really nice one that you want as a standard road car and not need to spend anything. Or you could buy a ratty one that needs loads doing and spend a fortune on turning it into an all out track car.

[giblet]

I’ve enjoyed reading this thread from start to finish.

I’m in the market for an E46 M3 as a daily with occasional track days and weekend drives out. Having owned a few “quick” cars in the past I’m interested in test driving one to see how they compare. The only noteable performance cars I’ve owned have been a Lexus ISF, a ~500bhp Evo X and a Alfa 4C spider (granted that was leased )

It’s interesting to see how the market has changed since this thread was started. Prices seem to have gone in one direction!

My criteria is a SMG coupe, non sunroof with a few mods and in silver grey, black or dark blue. I’ve seen a few for sale over on cutters that are tempting. How does the gearbox compare to a dual clutch? I’ve owned and driven a few dual clutch boxed cars as well as some conventional automatics.

[Olf]

BMW E46 M3, what is it to you?

Its just the test bed they used before they put that great engine into my car

[Messerchmitt]

trackdemon said:

Interesting time to bump an E46 M3 thread, given the market has moved a fair bit in the last 4 years. Seems they're becoming quite the modern classic, with values up since the OP, and likely to continue that way - especially for standard manual coupe's (SMG cab's cheapest out there). Lots of uninformed negative talk about 'not being fast' 'no steering feel' 'boring to drive' in posts seemingly from folks who've never driven one, or nothing more than around the block. But I guess that's PH nowadays.

FWIW I've owned my Phoenix Yellow '02 since August '16, put probably 12k on it including a 2.5k euro trip, a couple of trackdays, lots of weekend drives including Wales a couple of times. This is the E46 M3's sweet spot I think: occasional track car (yes it's too heavy/not focused enough to be a season long weapon), but for fast road driving in all conditions it's brilliant. Drive it slowly at low revs, and it feels like a nicely equipped 3 series with a special engine - no bad thing. But get it onto deserted fun A roads, and it's a blast; quick enough, beautifully balanced chassis, plenty of feedback (take note anyone thinking E46 steering is dead, yet promoting the A45!), lovely sounding engine... it's fun. Part of the trick is grip levels well matched to the torque/power output - you don't have to drive at crazy speeds to enjoy tweaking the attitude of the car with throttle/steering/brakes. It's a car that reveals it's talents over a good few miles, so it's easy to see how a quick passenger ride or short drive doesn't leave the same impression the journo's got back in the day, and many owners have now.

For some that's simply not a driving style that appeals, and that's just fine. I've driven a few turbo-nutter cars, and whilst I can see the appeal in STi/EVO, it's not really for me. If we all liked the same thing then we'd all buy much the same thing, and forums would be a place for us all to slap each other on the back for choosing well.

Nar so wrong the smg vert can get more it depends on the condition mileage and year say 56 plate with 34k on the clock........... easy la plus less built than the coupe.........ul see in in 20yrs when all the verts are split down because of broken roofs and that kind of talk

[GetCarter]

Messerchmitt said:

Nar so wrong the smg vert can get more it depends on the condition mileage and year say 56 plate with 34k on the clock........... easy la plus less built than the coupe.........ul see in in 20yrs when all the verts are split down because of broken roofs and that kind of talk

[SidewaysSi]

H20DJY said:

SidewaysSi said:

How much do you need to chuck at one to make it half decent? £5-8K?

That's a fairly open ended question. You could buy a really nice one that you want as a standard road car and not need to spend anything. Or you could buy a ratty one that needs loads doing and spend a fortune on turning it into an all out track car.

True, depends on what you need/want. I will have spent around £7k on my E36 328 to make it a half decent road car. Add possible boot floor fixes etc and I think I would need to chuck £10k at one personally. But that's just me and I am quite picky how my cars drive.

[TorqueDirty]

I had one form nearly new and I echo what others have said about them not being anywhere near as good as everyone made out.

Brakes were rubbish - they faded even on the road after only a few minutes of spirited driving, the engine lacked torque (but was sublime when on full chat), the steering was not sharp enough for a proper sports car and the gear lever feel was horrid (forget "snicking" in to the next gear. it was like linkage was made of old rubber bands and leather strapping). Suspension was also only average.

It was eye wateringly expensive to run too. Mine was not reliable and I had to chuck thousands at it before it even got to 50k miles.

Had it not been for the hype I would have been pretty pleased with it as a do anything fast car, but I was expecting much more.

My real issue was that it was not good enough as a sports car but in trying to be one it was compromised as an everyday fast coupe (see comment about torque). The two throttle maps were also frustrating. Sport was kangaroo city when not really pressing on and the standard map was lethargic to say the least.

Having said all of the above I think I would like it a lot more now than I did then because I would simply thrash it, and I'd also probably throw some money at the suspension and brakes.

TD

[coljoh148]

Had one 10yrs ago and it was a good car but not jaw droppingly quick.

Would I buy one now, probably not.

Also expensive to maintain correctly from memory, a big service cost a grand.

[wjb]

GetCarter said:

Messerchmitt said:

Nar so wrong the smg vert can get more it depends on the condition mileage and year say 56 plate with 34k on the clock........... easy la plus less built than the coupe.........ul see in in 20yrs when all the verts are split down because of broken roofs and that kind of talk

Translation;

"No, you are wrong about that. The M3 Convertible with SMG box can be worth more money, it all depends on the condition, mileage and year of the vehicle.

For example, a 56 plate with 34k on the clock would be a valuable M3 SMG convertible.

Furthermore, BMW built less convertible models than coupe's.

My view will come apparent in 20 years time, when I suspect that most convertible M3's will be scrapped due to damaged roofs etc,, leaving just the good condition valuable ones"

(Can you tell I'm the only one up at this time in the morning?)

[GetCarter]

wjb said:

GetCarter said:

Messerchmitt said:

Nar so wrong the smg vert can get more it depends on the condition mileage and year say 56 plate with 34k on the clock........... easy la plus less built than the coupe.........ul see in in 20yrs when all the verts are split down because of broken roofs and that kind of talk

Translation;

"No, you are wrong about that. The M3 Convertible with SMG box can be worth more money, it all depends on the condition, mileage and year of the vehicle.

For example, a 56 plate with 34k on the clock would be a valuable M3 SMG convertible.

Furthermore, BMW built less convertible models than coupe's.

My view will come apparent in 20 years time, when I suspect that most convertible M3's will be scrapped due to damaged roofs etc,, leaving just the good condition valuable ones"

(Can you tell I'm the only one up at this time in the morning?)

Thanks for that. I don't speak Messerchmitt.

[derin100]

Olf said:

BMW E46 M3, what is it to you?

Its just the test bed they used before they put that great engine into my car

I agree!

That engine added to a Z4 makes for a far more exciting car! Smaller, lower, 100Kg lighter, sharper CSL steering, better manual gear-change...and at the moment, still an under-rated car!

Just wait until the 'usual suspect dealers' wake up to the fact that they are still a bargain buy.....!

[Pork]

I can understand people saying they’re overrated. As a new car, maybe so. As a used buy, surely they’re tremendous value?

I’ve had a couple and currently look afte a 56 plate while the owner is overseas. They’re great cars at today’s prices. Bills can still be pretty heavy though!

[gizlaroc]

I have had a few, standard car has a slow steering ratio, brakes that fade too quickly and the throtlle map as said above could be far better, but still a great car.
So much better on 18" wheels than the 19s too.

The CSL is a hell of a lot better, it just feels far more raw.


Having said that, I sold my 535d Touring and CSL to buy an S4 Avant as a do it all car (lasted 9 weeks absolute horrid thing) and then a 335i Touring (much nicer) I missed the M3 badly, so I sold the 335i and bought an older SMG M3 and an A6 Avant and have to say that M3 was the one I enjoyed most. I think after the CSL expectations were lower and I simply enjoyed it for what it was.

[giblet]

I would have expected the CSL to have had bigger expectations given the pricetag.

I had a very short drive in a smg coupe last week and thought it was alright. My plan is to take a standard(ish) car and turn it into my own take on the CS/CSL so a lot of the weak points like stock brakes and big wheels would be addressed and improved.

[Joscal]

TorqueDirty said:

I had one form nearly new and I echo what others have said about them not being anywhere near as good as everyone made out.

Brakes were rubbish - they faded even on the road after only a few minutes of spirited driving, the engine lacked torque (but was sublime when on full chat), the steering was not sharp enough for a proper sports car and the gear lever feel was horrid (forget "snicking" in to the next gear. it was like linkage was made of old rubber bands and leather strapping). Suspension was also only average.

It was eye wateringly expensive to run too. Mine was not reliable and I had to chuck thousands at it before it even got to 50k miles.

Had it not been for the hype I would have been pretty pleased with it as a do anything fast car, but I was expecting much more.

My real issue was that it was not good enough as a sports car but in trying to be one it was compromised as an everyday fast coupe (see comment about torque). The two throttle maps were also frustrating. Sport was kangaroo city when not really pressing on and the standard map was lethargic to say the least.

Having said all of the above I think I would like it a lot more now than I did then because I would simply thrash it, and I'd also probably throw some money at the suspension and brakes.

TD

Valid but what would you have bought at the time that was better?

[TorqueDirty]

Joscal said:

TorqueDirty said:

I had one form nearly new and I echo what others have said about them not being anywhere near as good as everyone made out.

Brakes were rubbish - they faded even on the road after only a few minutes of spirited driving, the engine lacked torque (but was sublime when on full chat), the steering was not sharp enough for a proper sports car and the gear lever feel was horrid (forget "snicking" in to the next gear. it was like linkage was made of old rubber bands and leather strapping). Suspension was also only average.

It was eye wateringly expensive to run too. Mine was not reliable and I had to chuck thousands at it before it even got to 50k miles.

Had it not been for the hype I would have been pretty pleased with it as a do anything fast car, but I was expecting much more.

My real issue was that it was not good enough as a sports car but in trying to be one it was compromised as an everyday fast coupe (see comment about torque). The two throttle maps were also frustrating. Sport was kangaroo city when not really pressing on and the standard map was lethargic to say the least.

Having said all of the above I think I would like it a lot more now than I did then because I would simply thrash it, and I'd also probably throw some money at the suspension and brakes.

TD

Valid but what would you have bought at the time that was better?

Precisely. That was my dilema. My leggy but significantly modified Audi 2.7 Bi-Turbo S4 (close to RS4 spec) suffered turbo woes at around 100k miles and the M3 was the only thing that caught my eye - after having pulled out of a 996 Turbo purchase due to an iffy inspection report.

I think the huge difference in low down grunt between the two S4 and the M3 also made the switch more difficuly to adjust to. Plus the fact that I handed over my much loved S4 and about 30k to gert the M3!

TD

[SidewaysSi]

Joscal said:

TorqueDirty said:

I had one form nearly new and I echo what others have said about them not being anywhere near as good as everyone made out.

Brakes were rubbish - they faded even on the road after only a few minutes of spirited driving, the engine lacked torque (but was sublime when on full chat), the steering was not sharp enough for a proper sports car and the gear lever feel was horrid (forget "snicking" in to the next gear. it was like linkage was made of old rubber bands and leather strapping). Suspension was also only average.

It was eye wateringly expensive to run too. Mine was not reliable and I had to chuck thousands at it before it even got to 50k miles.

Had it not been for the hype I would have been pretty pleased with it as a do anything fast car, but I was expecting much more.

My real issue was that it was not good enough as a sports car but in trying to be one it was compromised as an everyday fast coupe (see comment about torque). The two throttle maps were also frustrating. Sport was kangaroo city when not really pressing on and the standard map was lethargic to say the least.

Having said all of the above I think I would like it a lot more now than I did then because I would simply thrash it, and I'd also probably throw some money at the suspension and brakes.

TD

Valid but what would you have bought at the time that was better?

A proper 2 car garage would have been preferable e.g. Caterham/Elise and Integra DC2. If the cars had to be standard.

The M3 was compromised in all ways. Fine if your bar is relatively low but somewhat disappointing if you were expecting a proper driver's car.

People who say it has decent steering feel haven't driven a car that actually does has decent steering feel.

My E36 328 on E30 arms, rebuilt Z3 rack, X-brace, M3 bushes etc. is a lot better than a standard M3 and even that is no match for a decent unassisted set up. The E46 steering was fine in a saloon car context, which may have been acceptable for the majority of customers.

Unfortunately, many people have been brought up on over assisted cars so think these things somehow represent a high water mark. It's all relative.