BMW E46 M3, what is it to you, iconic, overrated, epic etc.?
Discussion
Welshbeef said:
What about the turbo M3/4? Oldest ones of these are getting great value & new technology inside the car + so much quicker than E36/46/92.
Because it is rubbish in relative terms? Because it’s got nothing on the E46 M3 in terms of emotion, specialness and actually requiring you to put something in it to drive it fast?Bear with me...
I had an X5 4.8iS (the original bad boy SUV from BMW) for 5yrs and 60k Miles - picked it up at 60k. Sold it recently and replaced it with perhaps one of the most loaded X5 F15 50i in the country - £32k worth of options. It is massively quicker - 0-60 4.3, 177mph top speed and it makes enough torque to slow the Earth when you are on it. And yet I still miss my old 4.8iS! I miss the hydraulic steering, the noise of the V8, the suspension which was just right everywhere etc...
So speed is nothing on its own. I am sorry, the last M3 which was interesting was when an M3 was both a two-door and a four-door. All this new Apple car play, wireless charging, turbo mega power lunacy - no cares....
a basic entry level Ferrari 488 will walk all over a Ferrari 250 GTO on performance figures.... but...???Cheburator mk2 said:
I had an X5 4.8iS (the original bad boy SUV from BMW) for 5yrs and 60k Miles - picked it up at 60k. Sold it recently and replaced it with perhaps one of the most loaded X5 F15 50i in the country
Maybe if you'd exchanged it for an X5M you would have had a different experience? I know the 4.8iS wasn't M-badged but it was very much the halo model of the original X5 so comparing it with what is basically an extra-heavy 550i doesn't really do it justice IMO.Ha,
The F50i is as bad as the 4.8iS on fuel. Actually, when on boost it is a lot worse! But it is ungodly fast for a 2.5t school bus.
As for comparing an X54.8iS, which was effectively the 2nd X5M in all but name - the 4.6iS was the first to a X5 50i MSport? I guess the X5M F15 or whatever model designation it has would be just quicker and harsher than mine. The F15 platform is hugely capable, but just dead in terms of driver involvement. Heck, my E46 M3 would not see which way a new 440i would go, let alone the M3/4, but that’s not the point of my post. Same applies to my 996.1 GT3 Club Sport - the new 991 is 10x more of everything the 996 can offer as statistics. Yet the 991 will never be a Porsche all time great, while the Mk1 GT3 already is...
The F50i is as bad as the 4.8iS on fuel. Actually, when on boost it is a lot worse! But it is ungodly fast for a 2.5t school bus.
As for comparing an X54.8iS, which was effectively the 2nd X5M in all but name - the 4.6iS was the first to a X5 50i MSport? I guess the X5M F15 or whatever model designation it has would be just quicker and harsher than mine. The F15 platform is hugely capable, but just dead in terms of driver involvement. Heck, my E46 M3 would not see which way a new 440i would go, let alone the M3/4, but that’s not the point of my post. Same applies to my 996.1 GT3 Club Sport - the new 991 is 10x more of everything the 996 can offer as statistics. Yet the 991 will never be a Porsche all time great, while the Mk1 GT3 already is...
Welshbeef said:
MKA29 said:
I've been watching these e92s... they've Been coming down steadily over the past year. If these dip below 10k I'll have no choice but to add one to the garage!
I too love the appearance of the e46, I think BMW nailed it there. In terms of the engine I think it's a bit overrated, though I can see how it must have been revolutionary in its day.
What about the turbo M3/4? Oldest ones of these are getting great value & new technology inside the car + so much quicker than E36/46/92. I too love the appearance of the e46, I think BMW nailed it there. In terms of the engine I think it's a bit overrated, though I can see how it must have been revolutionary in its day.
Welshbeef said:
Can you explain why they (massive mass produced car) will increase invalue when owners of the E36 have been saying the same thing for decades and nada.
Add in ruined economy too I’m struggling to see how anyone would think they w increase in value in a year or so. They will not unless you bought a distressed sale/under market value.
They are not rare
The CS and CLS have the limited numbers but as you know their value has dropped notably even before the virus destroyed our economy.
The next Feb starts at £10k
The older generation that owners have banged on about for decades that they are going up never have and are in much lower numbers than the E46 M3.
I like the hope - but you buy on wanting the car assume it loses value and costs money to run and plan for something to fail as they are very old cars now most hammered /enjoyed.
60k in classic car terms is huge miles , 30k is toppy for classic cars otherwise they are simply not worth it.
But it as a car and enjoy it as a car - I wish people would stop talking about value going up it’s a dream world utterly unrealistic and masks the real running costs of a 15-21 year old old car. New brake lines for example new condenser total replacement of all rubber bushes etc.
You keep mentioning E36 M3's have not increased. Have you been living under a rock? 5k would have got you a decent late Evo EB but now you are looking at double that and it may not even be decent.Add in ruined economy too I’m struggling to see how anyone would think they w increase in value in a year or so. They will not unless you bought a distressed sale/under market value.
They are not rare
The CS and CLS have the limited numbers but as you know their value has dropped notably even before the virus destroyed our economy.
The next Feb starts at £10k
The older generation that owners have banged on about for decades that they are going up never have and are in much lower numbers than the E46 M3.
I like the hope - but you buy on wanting the car assume it loses value and costs money to run and plan for something to fail as they are very old cars now most hammered /enjoyed.
60k in classic car terms is huge miles , 30k is toppy for classic cars otherwise they are simply not worth it.
But it as a car and enjoy it as a car - I wish people would stop talking about value going up it’s a dream world utterly unrealistic and masks the real running costs of a 15-21 year old old car. New brake lines for example new condenser total replacement of all rubber bushes etc.
For me I think you need to look at the E46 in the context of what came before and after and also what it’s rivals were from other manufacturers.
I owned an E36 from new in ‘97 and a E46 M3 from new in 2002. Both cars were IMHO better than their rivals although the RS4’s were great cars.
E36 was great at the time but first time I drove an E46 on a dealer test drive in 2001 it was on a totally different level..the E46 engine is just on a totally different level and dynamically it’s a lot better. The E46 also was a step on from the E36 in styling terms...bonnet and the power bulge and wider arches. E36 had the mirrors, bumpers and sills to differ it from a bog standard 3 series but as I found out the lack of differentiation made the parts a magnet for thieves ! E46 also introduced those quad exhausts which were just fantastic.
E90 never really did it for me.
It took 16 years for me to buy another car that had an engine to rival my E46....and I would quite like one again sat beside my 991.2 GT3.
I owned an E36 from new in ‘97 and a E46 M3 from new in 2002. Both cars were IMHO better than their rivals although the RS4’s were great cars.
E36 was great at the time but first time I drove an E46 on a dealer test drive in 2001 it was on a totally different level..the E46 engine is just on a totally different level and dynamically it’s a lot better. The E46 also was a step on from the E36 in styling terms...bonnet and the power bulge and wider arches. E36 had the mirrors, bumpers and sills to differ it from a bog standard 3 series but as I found out the lack of differentiation made the parts a magnet for thieves ! E46 also introduced those quad exhausts which were just fantastic.
E90 never really did it for me.
It took 16 years for me to buy another car that had an engine to rival my E46....and I would quite like one again sat beside my 991.2 GT3.
Cheburator mk2 said:
Welshbeef said:
What about the turbo M3/4? Oldest ones of these are getting great value & new technology inside the car + so much quicker than E36/46/92.
Because it is rubbish in relative terms? Because it’s got nothing on the E46 M3 in terms of emotion, specialness and actually requiring you to put something in it to drive it fast?trackdemon said:
What about them indeed. More power, grip & weight. Meh. Less feedback, interaction & driving pleasure. Double meh. spikey, flat power delivery and digital sound with muted steering; they'll never be an all time great M3 to sit alongside E30/E46
If you consider the M2 as the new M3, things look somewhat different, particularly with the original M2. Cheib said:
For me I think you need to look at the E46 in the context of what came before and after and also what it’s rivals were from other manufacturers.
I owned an E36 from new in ‘97 and a E46 M3 from new in 2002. Both cars were IMHO better than their rivals although the RS4’s were great cars.
E36 was great at the time but first time I drove an E46 on a dealer test drive in 2001 it was on a totally different level..the E46 engine is just on a totally different level and dynamically it’s a lot better. The E46 also was a step on from the E36 in styling terms...bonnet and the power bulge and wider arches. E36 had the mirrors, bumpers and sills to differ it from a bog standard 3 series but as I found out the lack of differentiation made the parts a magnet for thieves ! E46 also introduced those quad exhausts which were just fantastic.
E90 never really did it for me.
It took 16 years for me to buy another car that had an engine to rival my E46....and I would quite like one again sat beside my 991.2 GT3.
Would you go for CSL/CS or a basic facelift E46 M3 stock shifter I owned an E36 from new in ‘97 and a E46 M3 from new in 2002. Both cars were IMHO better than their rivals although the RS4’s were great cars.
E36 was great at the time but first time I drove an E46 on a dealer test drive in 2001 it was on a totally different level..the E46 engine is just on a totally different level and dynamically it’s a lot better. The E46 also was a step on from the E36 in styling terms...bonnet and the power bulge and wider arches. E36 had the mirrors, bumpers and sills to differ it from a bog standard 3 series but as I found out the lack of differentiation made the parts a magnet for thieves ! E46 also introduced those quad exhausts which were just fantastic.
E90 never really did it for me.
It took 16 years for me to buy another car that had an engine to rival my E46....and I would quite like one again sat beside my 991.2 GT3.
nickfrog said:
If you consider the M2 as the new M3, things look somewhat different, particularly with the original M2.
I've been lucky enough to drive most of the M cars (apart from M1 & M635CSi 
) and I'd agree with that to an extent. Certainly in terms of size and character it's far closer to an E46 than the current M4. But it's still too heavy, has turbo power delivery and the inevitably muted steering (not that the E46 is a paragon tbh!). They are tremendous fun though.... as is the 1M, which I'd probably prefer to an M2....trackdemon said:
I've been lucky enough to drive most of the M cars (apart from M1 & M635CSi ) and I'd agree with that to an extent. Certainly in terms of size and character it's far closer to an E46 than the current M4. But it's still too heavy, has turbo power delivery and the inevitably muted steering (not that the E46 is a paragon tbh!). They are tremendous fun though.... as is the 1M, which I'd probably prefer to an M2....
Yes sure, I'd go along with that. Difficult to emulate NA although the N55 in this M2 guise is probably as close as it will get. As for weight, it's always difficult to know for sure but I believe that an original M2 and a E46 M3 have the same EU weight at 1,570kgs, or 1,495kgs DIN. ) and I'd agree with that to an extent. Certainly in terms of size and character it's far closer to an E46 than the current M4. But it's still too heavy, has turbo power delivery and the inevitably muted steering (not that the E46 is a paragon tbh!). They are tremendous fun though.... as is the 1M, which I'd probably prefer to an M2....nickfrog said:
trackdemon said:
I've been lucky enough to drive most of the M cars (apart from M1 & M635CSi ) and I'd agree with that to an extent. Certainly in terms of size and character it's far closer to an E46 than the current M4. But it's still too heavy, has turbo power delivery and the inevitably muted steering (not that the E46 is a paragon tbh!). They are tremendous fun though.... as is the 1M, which I'd probably prefer to an M2....
Yes sure, I'd go along with that. Difficult to emulate NA although the N55 in this M2 guise is probably as close as it will get. As for weight, it's always difficult to know for sure but I believe that an original M2 and a E46 M3 have the same EU weight at 1,570kgs, or 1,495kgs DIN. ) and I'd agree with that to an extent. Certainly in terms of size and character it's far closer to an E46 than the current M4. But it's still too heavy, has turbo power delivery and the inevitably muted steering (not that the E46 is a paragon tbh!). They are tremendous fun though.... as is the 1M, which I'd probably prefer to an M2....
Both lighter than M4, which is in turn lighter than an E92clio007 said:
You keep mentioning E36 M3's have not increased. Have you been living under a rock? 5k would have got you a decent late Evo EB but now you are looking at double that and it may not even be decent.
Exactly what I was thinking. £5k would get you an Evo 7 - 10 years ago .... cheapest for sale now will be £13k + ... bought one of these yesterday, Admittedly it has been track prepped so slightly different but I have to say it feels fantastic. That engine once you climb the rev range is very special. Looking forward to hammering round a track soon and will do a readers cars soon on it - £10k worth of track prep!
I always found my E46 M3 to be incredibly sensitive to geometry changes. Get the wrong set-up and it could become incredibly sensitive and nervous on less than perfect roads. On track though, that same geo was sublime. Overall though, I just found it too powerful/quick to really exploit on UK roads and had much more fun in lighter, 16V cars like the E30 M3 and my 02.
Welshbeef said:
Cheib said:
For me I think you need to look at the E46 in the context of what came before and after and also what it’s rivals were from other manufacturers.
I owned an E36 from new in ‘97 and a E46 M3 from new in 2002. Both cars were IMHO better than their rivals although the RS4’s were great cars.
E36 was great at the time but first time I drove an E46 on a dealer test drive in 2001 it was on a totally different level..the E46 engine is just on a totally different level and dynamically it’s a lot better. The E46 also was a step on from the E36 in styling terms...bonnet and the power bulge and wider arches. E36 had the mirrors, bumpers and sills to differ it from a bog standard 3 series but as I found out the lack of differentiation made the parts a magnet for thieves ! E46 also introduced those quad exhausts which were just fantastic.
E90 never really did it for me.
It took 16 years for me to buy another car that had an engine to rival my E46....and I would quite like one again sat beside my 991.2 GT3.
Would you go for CSL/CS or a basic facelift E46 M3 stock shifter I owned an E36 from new in ‘97 and a E46 M3 from new in 2002. Both cars were IMHO better than their rivals although the RS4’s were great cars.
E36 was great at the time but first time I drove an E46 on a dealer test drive in 2001 it was on a totally different level..the E46 engine is just on a totally different level and dynamically it’s a lot better. The E46 also was a step on from the E36 in styling terms...bonnet and the power bulge and wider arches. E36 had the mirrors, bumpers and sills to differ it from a bog standard 3 series but as I found out the lack of differentiation made the parts a magnet for thieves ! E46 also introduced those quad exhausts which were just fantastic.
E90 never really did it for me.
It took 16 years for me to buy another car that had an engine to rival my E46....and I would quite like one again sat beside my 991.2 GT3.
Cheib said:
That’s a.good question...don’t know ! I’d really like to go for a CSL but CS is the “thinking mans”CSL isn’t it. My car was an SMG was a pig if you tried to drive off cold....proper bunny hops down the road but god I loved how it slammed the gears in S5. Don’t have any desire to own an E36 again...I had an E36 328i Sport before the M3....that was a great car. The first non M car with an M badge on its IIRC.
If I was buying an E46 M3 I'd want a manual, so a CS would be what I'd go for - other than a CSL converted to manual as someone on here has done! But for now my Z4M Coupe works for going shopping!
I bought a Daytona violet m3 saloon 5 years back for 5k with 60k miles. It needed some work on a rear arch, servicing and shocks.
That same car would probably be worth 15k today. Previously to that my first evo coupe cost me 4K and that same car would easily do three times that price now. They have doubled atleast but e36 m3s that are up for £20k right now take a long time to shift unless in a special colour with really low miles.
E46 m3s have increased a lot too. They bottomed out around 5-6 years back. U could find a coupe with 50k miles then for 10k if you looked hard enough. You can look all you like now but you won’t get a good one under 15/16k with that miles and that’s a very good price unless it’s an smg silver with grey leathers!
You want a rediculously fast car - get the post e60 m5s, or one of the Audi’s/ merc c63s Rex. Don’t mess around with an NA car as most aren’t fast enough but they give more pleasure.
Anyway- any good low mileage manual coupes out there for sale right now?
That same car would probably be worth 15k today. Previously to that my first evo coupe cost me 4K and that same car would easily do three times that price now. They have doubled atleast but e36 m3s that are up for £20k right now take a long time to shift unless in a special colour with really low miles.
E46 m3s have increased a lot too. They bottomed out around 5-6 years back. U could find a coupe with 50k miles then for 10k if you looked hard enough. You can look all you like now but you won’t get a good one under 15/16k with that miles and that’s a very good price unless it’s an smg silver with grey leathers!
You want a rediculously fast car - get the post e60 m5s, or one of the Audi’s/ merc c63s Rex. Don’t mess around with an NA car as most aren’t fast enough but they give more pleasure.
Anyway- any good low mileage manual coupes out there for sale right now?
Edited by thegermancarguy on Friday 1st May 01:10
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