E90/92 M3 : auto vs manual ( vs the Audi TT SMG?)

[SimpleSam]

Hi guys (and girls ), I'm new here and it's nice to be here

I've an Audit TT 2.0TFSI DSG (sorry I meant DSG not SMG) and it's BRILLIANT. Absolutely lovely car in almost every respect. Fast, smooth phenomenal double clutch auto! But now I'm thinking of jumping ship, possibly to an M3

What do I go for? Manual or auto (DCT?)

My only issues with my current TT are speed (6.2s 0-60, which whilst respectable isn't really in the M3's league) and the DSG. Whilst the DSG is amazing for my town driving, comfortable etc, in practice I never use the paddles because unlike my old manual I hate not being able to tell what gear I'm in (such a quiet engine and well soundproofed and smooth car) as when you use a manual you kind of have muscle memory of where you put the stick last (I'm not explaining it well I know) so I only ever us it auto. The bigger issue though is that whilst on paper it's 0.2s faster 0-60 than the manual TT (and a bit more economical) it very irritatingly only gets those figures if using launch control, which in practice I wouldn't use too often. So in practice the 0-60 is probably 6.7s or so (apparently LC helps by 0.5s)

So then the biggie becomes having instant power for pulling off at lights or getting into/out of a junction in a small gap of oncoming traffic. It just DOESN'T do that reliably. For some reason it can sometimes be instant, but sometimes it waits just ever so slightly before it kicks in. It's almost as though the DSG is on some sort of a cycle and if you're lucky and catch it at the right moment it flies, but otherwise you're waiting half a second. It's SO annoying I've lost confidence in it, which to me kind of defeats the purpose of having a fast car, if you can't pull off very quickly when you need to. With a manual you feel the bite of the clutch and can jump IMMEDIATELY. That's what I want.

So what's the deal with the BMW M3? i.e.

1) is DCT somehow inherently different? does it shoot off instantly with exactly the same level of control from a standing start as a manual?

2) People talk about using it in manual mode - is this actually a viable option and do people do this, unlike with my DSG it was a great gimmick for the first 2 days then I just found myself whizzing around in the normal auto mode. What is it like? Can you tell what gear you're in more easily?

I'd be very interested to know about these specific points.

I appreciate there may be some tribalism of dct v manual folk and I don't wish to start a civil war here! I know both with have their advantages but on these points of standing-start control, what are your thoughts please?

Edited by SimpleSam on Monday 10th April 15:32

[Gruber]

I've owned a manual e92 and a DCT. I think the DCT suits the engine better.

I never found there to be any problems of the sort you describe with the DCT box - super quick to change. It's not really an auto box like the VW DSG. DCT works ok as an auto (and much better than the SMG predecessor in the e46) but it works much better when you take control and use the paddles.

Putting is simply, think of DSG as an auto box that will allow you to interfere a bit with the paddles, but think of DCT as a manual box that changes gear for you.

If I were buying again, I'd get another DCT without question. There will be those who bemoan the loss of a clutch and full control but (a) that doesn't seem to be an issue for you, (b) the manual box on the e92 isn't exactly brilliant anyway, (c) the extra gear and closer ratios of the DCT make better use of the high revving V8 (IMHO!).

[cerb4.5lee]

Gruber said:

If I were buying again, I'd get another DCT without question. There will be those who bemoan the loss of a clutch and full control but (a) that doesn't seem to be an issue for you, (b) the manual box on the e92 isn't exactly brilliant anyway, (c) the extra gear and closer ratios of the DCT make better use of the high revving V8 (IMHO!).

This is a great sum up for me and I've had a Manual E92 M3 and a S-Tronic Audi TTS, the DCT is the way to go with the M3.

I'm not the biggest two pedal car fan because personally I prefer the extra involvement a stick and three pedals gives you, but the DCT is a must though in a E9x M3.

[DVandrews]

Wife has a 2litre turbo Audi with DSG box and it is very good, no lag on pull away and is almost psychic WRT to changing up and down. My 335i has a DCT box which I find quite slow witted by comparison, it is acceptable in sport mode, but dull and uninspiring when in normal mode compared to the DSG, pulling out can sometimes be a bit of a lottery as can kicking down when it can get thoroughly confused with a measurabe delay between applying the throttle and the engine and gearbox settling down to deliver.

I know the M3 DCT 'box has more selectable modes so things may be a bit different.

Dave

[woogie]

DVandrews said:

Wife has a 2litre turbo Audi with DSG box and it is very good, no lag on pull away and is almost psychic WRT to changing up and down. My 335i has a DCT box which I find quite slow witted by comparison, it is acceptable in sport mode, but dull and uninspiring when in normal mode compared to the DSG, pulling out can sometimes be a bit of a lottery as can kicking down when it can get thoroughly confused with a measurabe delay between applying the throttle and the engine and gearbox settling down to deliver.

I know the M3 DCT 'box has more selectable modes so things may be a bit different.

Dave

I never knew they did the DCT box in the 335i ? ( you must have the 335is) M3 DCT gear shifts is massively quicker than dsg, I had the golf gti mk5 with the 2litre engine ( stage one mapped to 240 bhp) and that was pretty quick but with 6 speed settings and GTS software on an M3 DCT the gear changes are brutal if you have it on max.

[woogie]

SimpleSam said:

Hi guys (and girls ), I'm new here and it's nice to be here

I've an Audit TT 2.0TFSI DSG (sorry I meant DSG not SMG) and it's BRILLIANT. Absolutely lovely car in almost every respect. Fast, smooth phenomenal double clutch auto! But now I'm thinking of jumping ship, possibly to an M3

What do I go for? Manual or auto (DCT?)

My only issues with my current TT are speed (6.2s 0-60, which whilst respectable isn't really in the M3's league) and the DSG. Whilst the DSG is amazing for my town driving, comfortable etc, in practice I never use the paddles because unlike my old manual I hate not being able to tell what gear I'm in (such a quiet engine and well soundproofed and smooth car) as when you use a manual you kind of have muscle memory of where you put the stick last (I'm not explaining it well I know) so I only ever us it auto. The bigger issue though is that whilst on paper it's 0.2s faster 0-60 than the manual TT (and a bit more economical) it very irritatingly only gets those figures if using launch control, which in practice I wouldn't use too often. So in practice the 0-60 is probably 6.7s or so (apparently LC helps by 0.5s)

So then the biggie becomes having instant power for pulling off at lights or getting into/out of a junction in a small gap of oncoming traffic. It just DOESN'T do that reliably. For some reason it can sometimes be instant, but sometimes it waits just ever so slightly before it kicks in. It's almost as though the DSG is on some sort of a cycle and if you're lucky and catch it at the right moment it flies, but otherwise you're waiting half a second. It's SO annoying I've lost confidence in it, which to me kind of defeats the purpose of having a fast car, if you can't pull off very quickly when you need to. With a manual you feel the bite of the clutch and can jump IMMEDIATELY. That's what I want.

So what's the deal with the BMW M3? i.e.

1) is DCT somehow inherently different? does it shoot off instantly with exactly the same level of control from a standing start as a manual?

2) People talk about using it in manual mode - is this actually a viable option and do people do this, unlike with my DSG it was a great gimmick for the first 2 days then I just found myself whizzing around in the normal auto mode. What is it like? Can you tell what gear you're in more easily?

I'd be very interested to know about these specific points.

I appreciate there may be some tribalism of dct v manual folk and I don't wish to start a civil war here! I know both with have their advantages but on these points of standing-start control, what are your thoughts please?

Edited by SimpleSam on Monday 10th April 15:32

Hi - DCT wont creep like DSG does , brake and take your foot off and it will just sit there. An M3 DCT box will be a lot different than your DSG box . DSG is quick but DCT you have lots of speed setting for changing gear, even in slowest mode is still a quick gear change. In fact lots of options can be changed so that when you press the M button the car changes . Gear change speed, throttle response, steering feel .traction and EDC ( if you have it)

[pjv997]

Cars - had E90 M3 manual for 3 years, followed by current F10 M5 with DCT for past 5 years. SWMBO has current TTS in manual which was preceded by MK 2 TT V6 manual.

DCT is a great gearbox and I really like it. M3 manual is not generally liked but I thought it was good and I really enjoyed the extra engagement with the car.

Whilst DCT is a bit quicker, an M3 has plenty of performance for driving on public roads. Also, I suspect that manual will not be available on performance cars for many more years. So I would say, don't discount the manual option, try it as well as DCT.

One thing you may read though if you search through threads is that initially an E90/2 M3 can seem underwhelming and it can take a while to really gel with the car - for me it was a couple of months - so you may not 'get' the car with either gearbox on a short test drive.

[SimpleSam]

Sorry for the late reply guys, there was a (understandable) ban on new members posting and I couldn't get in to reply.

What I read does give me some reassurance about the DCT.

I've since been doing a lot of reading on Audi forums and it seems it is a common problem with the Audi DSG and people have described it perfectly when saying they find themselves in extremely dangerous situations as a result of this "throttle lag". A perfect example people refer to, which I notice all the time in my TT, is let's say you're at a roundabout waiting to go out, and you see a gap in the traffic to your right. Normally you'd nip in quick, but with a TT DSG, despite it being a very quick car, you release break and hit the gas and no matter whether you're in D or S, for some reason the engine thinks about it for a good half second before moving you forward. This leads to some VERY dangerous situations where you think you can nip out safely but you don't and the stupid car creeps into dangerous oncoming traffic and you get beeped at, before suddenly the engine wakes up and you hurtle forwards at speed. It's VERY annoying and unsafe.

I always put this down to the DSG. With a manual you have the clutch on the bite point and you're fine. With DSG you can't. However in the Audi forums there seems to be some confusion as to what the cause is. Some say they don't notice it, although I suspect they have the problem but just don't know, some say it's due to the computer not registering the brake has been lifted, some say it's due to the delay of air and fuel going into the engine, some say it's the DSG, some say it's a safety feature for the engine, some say it's a safety mechanism for Audi so they don't get sued for someone accidentally pressing gas instead of brakes, some say it's the turbo (but the engine isn't revving at all during this lag). Whatever it is it RUINS the experience of having a fast car around town. Audi acknowledges this but calls it "normal" apparently.

But to me this isn't normal it's a flaw.

This is why I'm asking. I'm reassured that the car doesn't creep when you have your foot off the brake. This suggests there's something inherently different in how BMW and Audi implement their DCTs. Hopefully therefore with a BMW there won't be the "not registering that the brake is no longer pressed" problem at least and *hopefull* it will respond immediately when you put your foot down on the gas. Also as an NA car it's nto going to be the turbo lag.

So the more people who have a DCT who can test this and let me know if the response to the throttle is INSTANT when at a standstill the better. Thanks in advance!

Edited by SimpleSam on Wednesday 12th April 15:33

[SimpleSam]

Hi... some feedback for anyone who is searching this in future.

I've test driven a E92 M3 and I have to say the DCT is AMAZING.

ZERO lag from go. No creeping. You're at the lights at a standstill. You even think about touching the throttle and it leaps forward in an instant.

Brilliant brilliant stuff, even though I am not impressed by the M3 overall.