E46 M3, buyer questions
Discussion
For me a specialist is as good as it having missed everything except the right oil in the engine and an 'oil filter'
What makes a specialist? Just saying they are?
And then just saying they'll ignore BMW service guides haha. Hmmm.
But if BMW skimp the checks too, but charge as if they're not, that's pointless too.
A generic garage means it's had oil and a filter of some kind but maybe not even right consumables.
Even FBMWSH is meaningless, as is full specialist, or full random SH.
I'm very tempted to go for the £12,000 silver one near me on 06 and 68k miles... assuming nothing is obviously way off with the engine/SMG.
Get him down to £9,500.
Then do a £3,000 top to bottom on it DIY and OE bits.
Screw the history and do it all DIY with video footage of each job and all receipts etc.
At least you can trust that. Spam shots or daily newspaper as proof haha!
Given probably 95% of cars I see are patchy history now, I kinda think an enthusiast history with a good receipted folder and years of write-ups mostly proves the car is right over time.
At least then I know it's right myself, than trusting others to have both done stuff right in the past, and in the future too when I need work doing.
I'm still going to go see the CS near me and get a feel for a supposedly mint 90k mile car.
Also clarify the two gaps in history.
I think I'd have to eventually swap out the grey though haha!
What makes a specialist? Just saying they are?
And then just saying they'll ignore BMW service guides haha. Hmmm.
But if BMW skimp the checks too, but charge as if they're not, that's pointless too.
A generic garage means it's had oil and a filter of some kind but maybe not even right consumables.
Even FBMWSH is meaningless, as is full specialist, or full random SH.
I'm very tempted to go for the £12,000 silver one near me on 06 and 68k miles... assuming nothing is obviously way off with the engine/SMG.
Get him down to £9,500.
Then do a £3,000 top to bottom on it DIY and OE bits.
Screw the history and do it all DIY with video footage of each job and all receipts etc.
At least you can trust that. Spam shots or daily newspaper as proof haha!
Given probably 95% of cars I see are patchy history now, I kinda think an enthusiast history with a good receipted folder and years of write-ups mostly proves the car is right over time.
At least then I know it's right myself, than trusting others to have both done stuff right in the past, and in the future too when I need work doing.
I'm still going to go see the CS near me and get a feel for a supposedly mint 90k mile car.
Also clarify the two gaps in history.
I think I'd have to eventually swap out the grey though haha!
I had an E36 Evo for a few years and think my thoughts on Inspection IIs carry over to the E46, too.
I used 2 different people for big jobs on my car, one where I lived at the time and one elsewhere when I had the suspension re-built (he saw more of them – it made sense).
I was surprised at the pricing that a number of “specialists,” quoted for Inspection IIs as I didn’t see how they could do them properly for what they were quoting over an Inspection I as their differential was less than the gasket sets needed to do the clearances. The simple conclusion I came to was that most weren’t doing much of the inspection II work.
When I first bought the car I had an inspection II done and was fortunate enough to work with the chap I used over there as he did it (I had time and wanted to know the car better and he knew me well enough he was quite happy to have the dumb labour and tea-brewing). When I took the rocker cover gasket off, it was quite clear that it had never been changed in the car’s life…and certainly hadn’t been changed 2 years before as the history suggested. The clearances, at least, suggested they had been checked at that time…but what else hadn’t been done…?
I used 2 different people for big jobs on my car, one where I lived at the time and one elsewhere when I had the suspension re-built (he saw more of them – it made sense).
I was surprised at the pricing that a number of “specialists,” quoted for Inspection IIs as I didn’t see how they could do them properly for what they were quoting over an Inspection I as their differential was less than the gasket sets needed to do the clearances. The simple conclusion I came to was that most weren’t doing much of the inspection II work.
When I first bought the car I had an inspection II done and was fortunate enough to work with the chap I used over there as he did it (I had time and wanted to know the car better and he knew me well enough he was quite happy to have the dumb labour and tea-brewing). When I took the rocker cover gasket off, it was quite clear that it had never been changed in the car’s life…and certainly hadn’t been changed 2 years before as the history suggested. The clearances, at least, suggested they had been checked at that time…but what else hadn’t been done…?
Mr Whippy said:
There are two good garages nearby ish, one with a CS at £17, another a manual facelift for similar money (must be mint)
So I can at least start looking.
And they seem to hang around a while so I won't worry about one I see and like instantly disappearing, if there are others to go see.
Now the process of cashing out some bitcoin haha. Let's see how this goes
So I can at least start looking.
And they seem to hang around a while so I won't worry about one I see and like instantly disappearing, if there are others to go see.
Now the process of cashing out some bitcoin haha. Let's see how this goes
OP - i would advise that you also pay close attention to Head Gasket issues, this is as common (if not more so) problem than the Sub frame. Had mine done at 82K in 2012 usually misdiagnosed as a VANOS fault and confirmed by a leak down test.
Also Personally i'd look for a manual car, with 19's and the odd option. Insist on the 1200 running in service be stamped before not after 1200 miles.
Wouldn't stress so much about 'main dealer' history, but just make sure its had INP1 and 2's done and the specialists have used good 10w60 oil like castrol, shell etc and that there is evidence of overall upkeep from past owners.Its not unusual to find 5/6 owner cars they often change hands quickly when newer.
These cars are (despite what some say) getting thinner on the ground, most especially good condition, manual coupes, but ones with good history, maintenance and rarer colours. Last i checked there were only 22 manual coupe cars, up to 90K miles, and some of these were wrongly advertised SMG's.
Great cars and drive very well indeed. Had mine 10 years now.
Also Personally i'd look for a manual car, with 19's and the odd option. Insist on the 1200 running in service be stamped before not after 1200 miles.
Wouldn't stress so much about 'main dealer' history, but just make sure its had INP1 and 2's done and the specialists have used good 10w60 oil like castrol, shell etc and that there is evidence of overall upkeep from past owners.Its not unusual to find 5/6 owner cars they often change hands quickly when newer.
These cars are (despite what some say) getting thinner on the ground, most especially good condition, manual coupes, but ones with good history, maintenance and rarer colours. Last i checked there were only 22 manual coupe cars, up to 90K miles, and some of these were wrongly advertised SMG's.
Great cars and drive very well indeed. Had mine 10 years now.
For me personally HG or in most cases how the VANOS goes isn't the end of the world. Two things can write off an M3 or certainly dent your wallet hard.
-Rod bearings ; if they begin tapping the crank is generally scrap. Some do regrind the cranks but then there is a question mark over longevity.
-The RACP ; in most cases that is saveable. A new boot floor if it's too far gone is £5k wherever you go.
I'm seriously debating getting my bearings done for peace of mine ;a engine is still £3k+ secondhand vs. £800-1k for the bearings. But as found failure cases are rare, but it seems some are worse than others. One specialist's findings tied with a study I did on another forum. Some were worn but saveable at 75k, some were fine once removed at 135k and there are still some cars on their original bearings out there with 200k on them/
Mileage wouldn't bother me :i've seen people get stung before on cars this old due the numbers on the clock. On my 944 I was, but not one on twice the miles.
-Rod bearings ; if they begin tapping the crank is generally scrap. Some do regrind the cranks but then there is a question mark over longevity.
-The RACP ; in most cases that is saveable. A new boot floor if it's too far gone is £5k wherever you go.
I'm seriously debating getting my bearings done for peace of mine ;a engine is still £3k+ secondhand vs. £800-1k for the bearings. But as found failure cases are rare, but it seems some are worse than others. One specialist's findings tied with a study I did on another forum. Some were worn but saveable at 75k, some were fine once removed at 135k and there are still some cars on their original bearings out there with 200k on them/
Mileage wouldn't bother me :i've seen people get stung before on cars this old due the numbers on the clock. On my 944 I was, but not one on twice the miles.
Edited by SebringMan on Wednesday 7th February 08:25
C2james said:
Also I think if you really wanted buy an SMG car, run if for a couple of years and then convert it to manual if you really want. From what I’ve seem it’s not a bad job
This is exactly what I thought. I didn't realise quite what was involved with converting them but it really isn't too bad ; the SMG pedal box is already pretty much a manual one anyway.If I was going to convert mine a CAI or RTD shifter would be at the top of the list.
SebringMan said:
This is exactly what I thought. I didn't realise quite what was involved with converting them but it really isn't too bad ; the SMG pedal box is already pretty much a manual one anyway.
If I was going to convert mine a CAI or RTD shifter would be at the top of the list.
I did this. Car is much better for it IMO. If I was going to convert mine a CAI or RTD shifter would be at the top of the list.
Used the E60 545i shifter, slightly shorter throw. Its not bad, but don't bother pissing around with the OE clutch hard-line, it's a faff. Get a flexy hose made up.
To keep cruise control working, you'll either have to tap a hole in the box for a gear position sensor or wire like a Z3M which does it in another manner (from the clutch switch I think). You'll also need the M3 specific clutch switch, apparently non-M3 ones don't work.
Once again my 2p: SMG is a rather cool bit of kit and actually makes the car in my view... BMW manuals are pretty nasty. Strong yes but not great to use (I have had several).
And 4 x SMG E46M3's have been through my family (three for many years and 100,000s of miles each) with zero issues.
Ditto HG and vanos. Mines a bit noisy (can only hear it once hot with bonnet raised tho) and although covered by warranty (confirmed) still I was advised to leave it as they are often just as noisy after repair - including the after market 'kits'. That was advice for two sources (one indy, one main dealer - independently).
Rod bearings? E46 M3 is not prone to failure in that area unless the very early production run units that were not fixed under warranty at recall. Even the E92 rarely 'fails' in that regard in the UK. Its a USA issue it seems.
Looking at pics of bearings removed 'just in time' seems a bit random to me with a lot of selection bias in the interpretation of the 'evidence'. I reckon most have got a lot of life left.
The main let-down for me is the body-work - specifically the wings. Mines not even had any winter use since 2009 and still just started showing signs of distress
Fixable, for sure, but annoying!
Also I got the goodwill new carrier panel / boot floor done by BMW in 2012 - that IS also worth looking for. Either the new floor or a good repair. I was advised by Redish to go the BMW goodwill route as it is the best solution if the option is there. It was for me so took their advice on that - they found the cracks for me tho - BMW couldn't see them for some reason!!
I have had my car (2004 model) from 2006 with 20,000 miles. Was an expensive treat back then. Now at 102,000 miles still nowt can really beat it for sound / performance / handling. I have tracked it and my brothers one (in USA) a lot. It's a great GT too.
I did treat mine to a £3k suspension refresh (OEM) recently. That has helped keep it tight. Love it still !
About to get a CTR as a daily and hope to semi-retire the M3 rather than sell it as it seems to be creeping back up in value now
And 4 x SMG E46M3's have been through my family (three for many years and 100,000s of miles each) with zero issues.
Ditto HG and vanos. Mines a bit noisy (can only hear it once hot with bonnet raised tho) and although covered by warranty (confirmed) still I was advised to leave it as they are often just as noisy after repair - including the after market 'kits'. That was advice for two sources (one indy, one main dealer - independently).
Rod bearings? E46 M3 is not prone to failure in that area unless the very early production run units that were not fixed under warranty at recall. Even the E92 rarely 'fails' in that regard in the UK. Its a USA issue it seems.
Looking at pics of bearings removed 'just in time' seems a bit random to me with a lot of selection bias in the interpretation of the 'evidence'. I reckon most have got a lot of life left.
The main let-down for me is the body-work - specifically the wings. Mines not even had any winter use since 2009 and still just started showing signs of distress
Fixable, for sure, but annoying!
Also I got the goodwill new carrier panel / boot floor done by BMW in 2012 - that IS also worth looking for. Either the new floor or a good repair. I was advised by Redish to go the BMW goodwill route as it is the best solution if the option is there. It was for me so took their advice on that - they found the cracks for me tho - BMW couldn't see them for some reason!!
I have had my car (2004 model) from 2006 with 20,000 miles. Was an expensive treat back then. Now at 102,000 miles still nowt can really beat it for sound / performance / handling. I have tracked it and my brothers one (in USA) a lot. It's a great GT too.
I did treat mine to a £3k suspension refresh (OEM) recently. That has helped keep it tight. Love it still !
About to get a CTR as a daily and hope to semi-retire the M3 rather than sell it as it seems to be creeping back up in value now
Speaking of the wings I know of a Convertible '06 car on 31k which is just having the wings starting to pit/bubble! He's trying to get it done under warranty but of course he is right on the edge of what is deemed acceptable. I was very surprised his were going considering it is stored most of thr time. But it's made me feel a little better about my front wings!
That said for many people here only 3 pedals will do irrelevant of how good/bad it is.
Cheers for the pointers! Tapping out the compression spring aperture for the GPS (non-SMG) was the one way I was aware of. I had heard that it wasn't necessary but it's good to know.
What you were saying about converting is what came to my mind! From what I gather you can: do the following
-Get a braided clutch line,
-A generic E46 clutch pedal and master cylinder (this is shared across all E-cars and even some F series cars including the M4),
-clutch pedal switch or the other method
-Rewire the SMG slightly differetly but remove the SMG ECU
-Install your gear lever of choice ; BMW stock items require you to machine the bellhousing or source a manual bellhousing ; A CAE, RTD, Samsonas or other self centralising shifter also works ; the benefit here is you'll get a much improved gearchange too with the self centreing options.
-Recode the car. Martyn Thomas' ECUWorx tool can do this but some parts still need to be done through NCS-Expert ; That is removing SMG traits like ensuring the car only starts in neutral and the brake pedal is pressed etc. Of course you may want to keep some of those on depending on your preference.
While I doubt I'll convert mine over never say never.
Coops90 said:
I did this. Car is much better for it IMO.
Used the E60 545i shifter, slightly shorter throw. Its not bad, but don't bother pissing around with the OE clutch hard-line, it's a faff. Get a flexy hose made up.
To keep cruise control working, you'll either have to tap a hole in the box for a gear position sensor or wire like a Z3M which does it in another manner (from the clutch switch I think). You'll also need the M3 specific clutch switch, apparently non-M3 ones don't work.
Did you ever do the CSL update to your car? It transformed mine, so much so that you wonder why BMW didn't put it in as standard! OK I know they needed to justify the CSL differences but still!Used the E60 545i shifter, slightly shorter throw. Its not bad, but don't bother pissing around with the OE clutch hard-line, it's a faff. Get a flexy hose made up.
To keep cruise control working, you'll either have to tap a hole in the box for a gear position sensor or wire like a Z3M which does it in another manner (from the clutch switch I think). You'll also need the M3 specific clutch switch, apparently non-M3 ones don't work.
That said for many people here only 3 pedals will do irrelevant of how good/bad it is.
Cheers for the pointers! Tapping out the compression spring aperture for the GPS (non-SMG) was the one way I was aware of. I had heard that it wasn't necessary but it's good to know.
What you were saying about converting is what came to my mind! From what I gather you can: do the following
-Get a braided clutch line,
-A generic E46 clutch pedal and master cylinder (this is shared across all E-cars and even some F series cars including the M4),
-clutch pedal switch or the other method
-Rewire the SMG slightly differetly but remove the SMG ECU
-Install your gear lever of choice ; BMW stock items require you to machine the bellhousing or source a manual bellhousing ; A CAE, RTD, Samsonas or other self centralising shifter also works ; the benefit here is you'll get a much improved gearchange too with the self centreing options.
-Recode the car. Martyn Thomas' ECUWorx tool can do this but some parts still need to be done through NCS-Expert ; That is removing SMG traits like ensuring the car only starts in neutral and the brake pedal is pressed etc. Of course you may want to keep some of those on depending on your preference.
While I doubt I'll convert mine over never say never
.Edited by SebringMan on Friday 23 February 10:59
Mine.
Once I get the wheels refurbed it’s for sale.
Inspection 2 done in December.
HG done
Rear subframe done
113k
Eisenmann exhaust
Manual
Genuine CSL wheels
Tyres replaced 4K ago
Updated stereo and speakers
Retrimmed wheel (alcantara)
£14k.
I’ve loved every second over the past 4 years and spent loads on it but it’s time for a change.
Shame you aren’t local OP.
SebringMan said:
Speaking of the wings I know of a Convertible '06 car on 31k which is just having the wings starting to pit/bubble! He's trying to get it done under warranty but of course he is right on the edge of what is deemed acceptable. I was very surprised his were going considering it is stored most of thr time. But it's made me feel a little better about my front wings!
That said for many people here only 3 pedals will do irrelevant of how good/bad it is.
Cheers for the pointers! Tapping out the compression spring aperture for the GPS (non-SMG) was the one way I was aware of. I had heard that it wasn't necessary but it's good to know.
What you were saying about converting is what came to my mind! From what I gather you can: do the following
-Get a braided clutch line,
-A generic E46 clutch pedal and master cylinder (this is shared across all E-cars and even some F series cars including the M4),
-clutch pedal switch or the other method
-Rewire the SMG slightly differetly but remove the SMG ECU
-Install your gear lever of choice ; BMW stock items require you to machine the bellhousing or source a manual bellhousing ; A CAE, RTD, Samsonas or other self centralising shifter also works ; the benefit here is you'll get a much improved gearchange too with the self centreing options.
-Recode the car. Martyn Thomas' ECUWorx tool can do this but some parts still need to be done through NCS-Expert ; That is removing SMG traits like ensuring the car only starts in neutral and the brake pedal is pressed etc. Of course you may want to keep some of those on depending on your preference.
While I doubt I'll convert mine over never say never.
I did! With the rev-matching too? I still found it frustrating. I'd find myself having to change down earlier than I naturally wanted otherwise it would be changing down mid-corner. Another thing was when it changes down sometimes just as you want to nip away from a junction or roundabout. Changing up was OK though, there was something quite barbarically pleasing about feeling like the diff was going to pop up through the rear seats when slamming up the gears in setting 6. Coops90 said:
I did this. Car is much better for it IMO.
Used the E60 545i shifter, slightly shorter throw. Its not bad, but don't bother pissing around with the OE clutch hard-line, it's a faff. Get a flexy hose made up.
To keep cruise control working, you'll either have to tap a hole in the box for a gear position sensor or wire like a Z3M which does it in another manner (from the clutch switch I think). You'll also need the M3 specific clutch switch, apparently non-M3 ones don't work.
Did you ever do the CSL update to your car? It transformed mine, so much so that you wonder why BMW didn't put it in as standard! OK I know they needed to justify the CSL differences but still!Used the E60 545i shifter, slightly shorter throw. Its not bad, but don't bother pissing around with the OE clutch hard-line, it's a faff. Get a flexy hose made up.
To keep cruise control working, you'll either have to tap a hole in the box for a gear position sensor or wire like a Z3M which does it in another manner (from the clutch switch I think). You'll also need the M3 specific clutch switch, apparently non-M3 ones don't work.
That said for many people here only 3 pedals will do irrelevant of how good/bad it is.
Cheers for the pointers! Tapping out the compression spring aperture for the GPS (non-SMG) was the one way I was aware of. I had heard that it wasn't necessary but it's good to know.
What you were saying about converting is what came to my mind! From what I gather you can: do the following
-Get a braided clutch line,
-A generic E46 clutch pedal and master cylinder (this is shared across all E-cars and even some F series cars including the M4),
-clutch pedal switch or the other method
-Rewire the SMG slightly differetly but remove the SMG ECU
-Install your gear lever of choice ; BMW stock items require you to machine the bellhousing or source a manual bellhousing ; A CAE, RTD, Samsonas or other self centralising shifter also works ; the benefit here is you'll get a much improved gearchange too with the self centreing options.
-Recode the car. Martyn Thomas' ECUWorx tool can do this but some parts still need to be done through NCS-Expert ; That is removing SMG traits like ensuring the car only starts in neutral and the brake pedal is pressed etc. Of course you may want to keep some of those on depending on your preference.
While I doubt I'll convert mine over never say never
.Edited by SebringMan on Friday 23 February 10:59
As for the conversion, you're right. Don't bother trying to use the standard E46 clutch hose, it's a waste of time trying to feed it behind the dash/over the trans. tunnel. I had a flexi made and it works fine.
Yes, the bellhousing needs a hole drilling and then a spring inserting to keep the lever central. There's a company who convert them, about £200 IIRC.
There's about a days worth of coding (I think). I must admit, I did all the research and supplied all the parts but in the end didn't do the spanner turning due to space and time. CLP Automotive in Sheffield did it for me.
Regrind the master cylinder, I just bought a complete manual M3 pedal box. Since it needs the M3 specific switch, thought it better to buy the lot and have no worries than buy a generic clutch pedal and then have to inevitably faff around buying shims and bolts etc.
Gassing Station | M Power | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff